L.M.C. Favoritism At Kalkaska

Briggs,
It is unfortunate about your situation. I worked this event and can tell you for a fact that minutes 31 and 37 were wide open, not a single rider on them. I have always maintained that our district should go back to a lottery system. We did that years ago but there was a monumental snivel-fest over it and was changed to our current system of favoritism.
I will back you up at our sanction meeting to overturn this rule in December.

From the Dark Side, Mark Becker

I agree that sounds very unfair.

As far as I know there were only two LMC members who raced on Sunday and we were the first two riders through sign up on SATURDAY night. I think I know who are referring to and he is NOT an LMC member.
One of the reasons that I race the series is to ride with my friends. I would not support the lottery system, unless the team class was reinstated to allow three guys who wanted to ride together to be on the same minute.

Mr briggs i am in ur same position..as i went to sign up sat nite..roughly 4ish 3 michigan riders includin one in my class request a minute in the 30's not sure which..surprisinly all 3 got there requested minute..i then approach the sign up ladies n ask for any minute in the mid to late 20's or any 30's n was told there are no minutes left..im like thats impossible as there were not enough ppl there to fill that many rows..so unwilling to fight with ppl puttin on the race i take a minute way earlier that i wanted...and to top it off when the lady put my row down on that sheet of paper..i just happened to see open minutes all throught the later half of the 20's..i agree this is a such a shame to happen..but other than that it was a great enduro !!

Trashrider said:

It is unfortunate about your situation. I worked this event and can tell you for a fact that minutes 31 and 37 were wide open, not a single rider on them.

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As a District 15 rider, (this event is on our Enduro Schedule) I must say that I too am a little disappointed. I signed up Saturday night and was told there is nothing open except in the 50's and higher, and 15's and below, everything else was gone. Except for the AA's, numbers should be first come, first serve.

But I still had a blast !!!!!!!! :)

See ya at the Jack Pine.

Mully

Ditto we were told sunday morning no #'s in the 30's and got 13. NO DOUBT LOTTERY IS THE ONLY FAIR WAY TO DO SIGN UP.

As long as it continues to be accepted practice to "just hang arrows in the woods'" with no additional trail clearing or trail "burn-in" for the early minute riders, later minutes DO have a substantial advantage over earlier minutes (even with the potential of bottlenecks).
Several people that signed up Sunday morning did get later minutes that were "saved for them." If the minutes were available, they should have been available to all -- it is unfair to "penalize," or limit someones choice, just because they didn't sign up until Sunday morning.
Event promoters need to do everything they can to keep the playing field as fair as possible. Playing games with row selection at sign up is ridiculous!
D-14 needs to address this issue in a very serious manner! We have enough trouble encouraging people to attend Enduros -- these shenanigans only continue to hurt our sport.
IMO, without the lottery system, it will be difficult for us to get past this. As I've had this discussion before (see last years Jackpine threads), I know what Trashrider is talking about -- the "good-ole boys" don't want to see it changed.

Signed up @ 6:30pm Sat. As I was standing in line someone approached the table and started asking what's available in the upper 20's and low to mid 30's. He said give me 2x for so and so, and 3y for so and so. They wrote the guys names on the back of the numbers and transfered them to a small basket off to the side. The basket had numerous numbers in it. I'm so clueless I figured it was all on the up and up.

If people need to cheat to be competitive - they SUCK.

Although I did not always like it at the time, drawing numbers seemed liked a “more fairer” method when it was done “back in the day”. The first enduro that I rode had a bunch of virgin stuff and I ended up drawing an 02! Lucky me!

Of course, I am sure there were still a bunch of “shenanigans” going on with that method. You drew from whatever numbers were put in the box by the club...............

Yeah, bring back the team competition and allow them to ride the same minute together. That was always fun anyway.

Also, it may force more riders to learn timekeeping if they can’t always count on riding with their computer sporting buddy.

salgeek said:

Signed up @ 6:30pm Sat. As I was standing in line someone approached the table and started asking what's available in the upper 20's and low to mid 30's. He said give me 2x for so and so, and 3y for so and so. They wrote the guys names on the back of the numbers and transfered them to a small basket off to the side. The basket had numerous numbers in it. I'm so clueless I figured it was all on the up and up.

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Post Of The Day!
:boss:

I was not aware of the whole story, nor will I defend it. However, if I pre-register for a national enduro and provide a request for a row assignment....I do not consider that action to be cheating.

fatherandson said:

I was not aware of the whole story, nor will I defend it. However, if I pre-register for a national enduro and provide a request for a row assignment....I do not consider that action to be cheating.

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I agree.

DW

Did Kalkaska have mail-in pre-registration?

fatherandson said:

... However, if I pre-register for a national enduro and provide a request for a row assignment....I do not consider that action to be cheating.

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Me neither. Was Treetops a National?

Briggsracing23 said:

equal chance of getting the row we want.

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agreed ... based on the order you line up in, to sign-up for the event.

fatherandson said:

However, if I pre-register for a national enduro and provide a request for a row assignment....I do not consider that action to be cheating.

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Pre-registering for a number with the promoter keeping all available numbers "available" until paid for, is different than what happened at the Tree Topper. At a National, all numbers (except the National assigned numbers) are available on a first-come, first-serve basis to paid registrants. This IS NOT what happened at the Tree Topper -- Saturday registrants were allowed any minute they desired, and Sunday registrants were limited to certain minutes -- even though they were available (unless you made prior arrangements, evidently).

UP Magoo said:

Saturday registrants were allowed any minute they desired, and Sunday registrants were limited to certain minutes -- even though they were available (unless you made prior arrangements, evidently).

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I think what you said is not what I think you were trying to say………..I think. :coocoo: ;)

Briggsracing23 said:

We came back later to see if 1-20 had filled so we could get on 21-40. **She**(Standing next to event promoter) replied 21-41 is full minute 18 is the latest I have.!!!!!!They just said 2 hours earlier 1-20 had to fill!!!!!
.

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whooboy...i was gonna stay outta this quagmire...but now I gotta jump in. That statement about minute 18 was said specifically to me as I was registering.

I am a C class rider - and really dont like being out in front of the A guys. I registerd Saturday evening, fairly early on. I asked for 3 numbers (for me and my two friends in line right behind me) on rows between 36 and 40 - the response was the latest they had was 18. (EDIT: - BTW - I do not recall anyone saying that 21 to 40 was full - I do recall comment about that was all they were going to fill now (before 20). It would seem implied however that past 20 was full) I voiced a bit of protest, briefly thought about getting back in line later on, but went ahead anyhow. The 3 of us all ended up on row 18. As it all turned out, being in front of the A class guys was not an issue at all. Being on near virgin trail did cause lots of moments of "arrow arrow whose got the arrow". But, in talking to a SWEEP rider after the event, he had trouble finding trail after EVERYONE went through! I am not so sure a later minute would of helped me any! Briggs - to bad you did not ride though - you missed a really nice ride. I would say this event is on my top 3 list of all enduros I have done! (not that it is that many).

I really dont think the issue is the handful of numbers set aside for specific people - my guess is, it really is only a handful. I think the real issue is with what sounds like an inconsistent way they tried to fill up early numbers.. I can understand them not wanting a rider here, a rider there, with empty rows in between. To avoid that, I can see why they would want to fill from early on down. My impression is that is really what the intent was, and that is what really has caused this "issue".

Filling all rows in sure is convenient for the club putting on the event. BUT..... maybe they do need to simply put the "customer" first. In my opinion, the club putting on the event needs to ignore it's convenience.

As I see it Two options...one way or the other...

1) you can pick your row, ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, where it is indeed first come first serve (screw worrying about 5 or 6 inside people with rows set aside...I really dont care about that), withOUT the club trying to force early rows full. There does need to be a way for someone who is registering to be able to set aside #s for their buddies. (maybe limit it to ON the row the registering rider request, nothing more) I think the real trouble here was the effort (for understandable reason) to force early rows full to avoid empty rows.

OR

2) True "lottery" system. But - with some way to allow someone to get their buddy on a row with them (I was able to do that and had a blast checking in and out with my friend all day long). Maybe, when the first member of a group of riders (limited to 4 or less) draws a row, that is the row for all 4. No clue how to handle if the draw is on a row of less than the # of riders wanted.

I must say, that at first I was not happy being "forced" to an early row. But, I still had a blast, still enjoyed the event, and honestly at this point, dont much care which way it goes as long as it is fair and consistent! For me its not about big sponsorship money, its about the ride! I had a (for me) great ride.

KTM Mike said:

I really dont think the issue is the handful of numbers set aside for specific people - my guess is, it really is only a handful. I think the real issue is with what sounds like an inconsistent way they tried to fill up early numbers.. I can understand them not wanting a rider here, a rider there, with empty rows in between. To avoid that, I can see why they would want to fill from early on down. My impression is that is really what the intent was, and that is what really has caused this "issue".

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Handfull or not - I have a very hard time understanding a person that is requesting numbers to be saved - I saw it for my own eyes. "Issue"? It is a problem and it's unsportsman like.