My proposed Base and Midvalve specs

[Danger]

The following are the stacks that I intend to build tomorrow. Any comments?
02 200 exc, .40 spring rate, ATF with 130mm airchamber, 180 lbs, used to be fast, will be again with ride time, still aggresive, sandy whoops and tree roots in single track. But also used for Moto-X.

Base Valve

14x.1
24x.1
21x.1
18x.1
16x.1
14x.1
12x.1
9x.2
18x.25

You will notice the bleed shim on top. I'm wondering if this may also be a good idea on top of the midvalve?

Midvalve
Perhaps a 20x.1 mm bleed shim on top?
24x.1
24x.1
21x.1
18x.1
15x.1
11x.1
11x.1
15x.1
20x.1
24x.25

Float to be determined but want about 1 mm and an adjustment may need to be made to midvalve stack to suit.
Perhaps change the 21x.1 for a 20x.1 and remove the 18x.1 for less HSC.
Perhaps an extra shim in the rebound stack would also be a good idea seeing as the rebound is best set at 12 clicks in for me but now running a higher spring rate.

 

[James]

Out of curiousity, what do the stock stacks look like?

 

[DEANSFASTWAY]

Sounds prettygood to me but i always like to have more of a stack on thebase valve then mid espesc for MX/OFFROAD crossover stuff . , Easier to change also.Id definitely try to keep the 2 24X1s on the mid for durability reason .Take out the18x1 and swap to rebound and youll get more rebound Any bigger on the rebound without using delta shims and you may encounter a foldover issue on the rebound stack, then shim breakage .Good luck

 

[Danger]

Thanks Deansfastway, sounds like sound advice. What are your thoughts on a bleed shim on the midvalve?
Below are the stock stacks

BV
24x.1
22x.1
20x.1
18x.1
16x.1
14x.1
9x.20
18x.25

Midvalve
4x24x.1
1.5 mm float.

You can probably work out I am trying to loose the harshness on the tree roots and square edges, just the usuall WP problems. The stock setup feels soft on whoops for me but I'm upping the spring rate from .38 to .40 along with these changes.
Cheers.

 

[James]

I was thinking a bleed shim on the midvalve would goof up the rebound damping?

 

[DEANSFASTWAY]

Bleed shims are good for finding plush but it can make the rebound faster .Id probably run more spring or preload those 40s a bit if youre riding low in stroke . Youll maybe be a bit more stable in the whoops or for moto use . Sounds like youre in the same conditions as out here in eastern US we have Rolling whoops in sand that could swallow a Volkswagen then tight trees with roots and rocks everywhere. alot of guys spec out real soft then add a steering damper to keep it stable in the faster stuff .Maybe with a bit of tinkering youll find the Nirvana where you turn the forks out for rocky rooted stuff then Turn them back in for moto play. Novation base valve device sounds kool but expensive, you could find what youre looking for with stock stuff if youre crafty and you sound like youre on the right track Good Luck Grasshopper.

 

[marcusgunby]

A bleed shim will only work on the midvalve if the float is very low(like 0.2mm) if you have 1mm of float you are actually reducing the float to 0.9mm with a bleed shim in place.

 

[Danger]

Thanks, all good advice. I've left the bleed shim out of the midvalve and my final float is .85 and removed the 18 mm shim so I'll try that and see how it feels. I've been wondering about adding more preload but I don't think I would want to add much more than the std 10mm spacer. Perhaps just another 3mm for a start. The forks do ride low in the stroke with my weight but with upping the rate from .38 to .40 and increasing the midvalve hopefully this will be closer to what is ideal. One thing that will be interesting will be the effect on steering, however I believe by increasing the rebound shim stack slightly that may have improved some. I didn't have an 18mm shim to place in rebound stack but I had a spare 16 so I used that instead.
I find this stuff interesting but time consuming so hopefully I will be able to fine tune with the base valve.
Thanks for your input.

 

[Danger]

Well after testing yesterday I quickly came to the conclusion that my valving was too stiff. I like the midvalve changes that have me sitter higher in the stroke and the bike is much much better through the whoops. Deflection is down on roots but still present to some degree, but much better here also. My compression clickers are full out and rebound clickers in 5 clicks. I am not using the last 50 mm of travel so want to decrease the high speed damping on the base valve. I want to try lightening the base valve by removing the 14 mm bleed (think it just adds to HSC with little other benefit in my case) and also switch the 16 out for a 15 and remove the 14 and place it under the clamp shim. Will these changes help to regain that last 50 mm travel or do I need to also lighten the midvalve?
New base valve stack.
24x1
21x1
18x1
15x1
12x1
9x.2
14x1
18x2.5

 

[DEANSFASTWAY]

Danger: Mid valve mods usually affect high speed reaction more than the low speed if im looking to more low speed comp id stack more on base valve conversely If looking for lighter HSC id try to pull out some mid valve ,It true that the base valve stack has a part (middle)that affects mid speed /high speed but changes on the mid valve come into play with more influence than base valve change .the trouble with going too light on mid valve is that if you run too light a stack your valving will bend. maybe on your KTM try to subtract a small bit of oil or we sometimes drill a little bleed hole on the first part of the bottoming cone to make like a ramping affect if looking for that last inch just bleed a little off . The new cones are really long on the new forks .

 

[Chouca]

I want to try lightening the base valve by removing the 14 mm bleed (think it just adds to HSC with little other benefit in my case)

I think that by removing the 14mm bleed you will have a stiffer fork. I believe the purpose of the bleed shim is to smooth the transition inbetween the "bypass", that is regulated by your comp-clicker adjustment, and the shim stack. My advise (if we stay with modding the base valve) is to replace the 14mm bleed to a 12 mm, lower the oil level to 150mm and go with 2.5WT.

I have the same bike as You and will go through the same exercise at the next seal change.

I modified my previous 200EXC -00 with a two stage stack and it made a huge difference, see below, but I don´t think I would like to have it that soft today, 2 more years of riding ;)

2)24 x.1
1)22x.1
1)12 x.15
1)20 x.1
1)18 X.1
1)16 x.1
1)14 x.1
1)12 x.1
1)12 x.15
1)18 x.2

 

[Danger]

Chouca, the above stack you used is stiffer than what I started with. Don't forget I am now running a midvalve stack. And at this stage I don't want to confuse things with a two stage stack. Also I don't need any lighter low speed damping so removing the bleed shim will be compensated by replacing the ATF with 5 wt (lighter). Also by lightening the stack (by the removal of the 14mm at the top and another shim) I'm hoping to ligthen the HSC and bring the compression clicker back into the picture rather than running if full out.
As per the oil level, I believe you are talking about via the WP method. I use the Fabtech method. There is a 30 mm difference in levels depending on method used. Via the Fabtech method (which makes more sense to me) I have 130mm air chamber. Via the WP method I have 160 mm air chamber. WP recomends a 150mm and fabtech recomends a 120mm level. I am 10mm lower at this stage.
Drilling the cones maybe an option if further stack and oil changes do not enable full stroke. Some more info would be helpfull as to what size holes and I would think 1/2 way down cone? The cones on my bike are 50mm (the amount the forks are short of bottoming. I'm thinking the lighter oil will help here).
Deansfastway, you have hit the nail on the head about the midvalve needs to not be to light as I don't want to have to keep pulling it down to replace shims that have bent. Thats why I'm concentrating on the base valve at this point, although I am tempted to try removing one of the 11 mm shims from the midvalve. That will increase float from .85 to .95. Maybe after changing the base valve and oil this time tho.
I'm trying to workout what effect running another midvalve such as this might have?
3x24x1
19x1
14x1
11x1
11x1
15x1
20x1
24x.25

Thats added 1x24 but downsized the 20 to a 19 and the 15 to a 14. Would that be stiffer or lighter? More durable as the 24's have a little more support or would they bend further because of the 19 mm shim instead of a 20? Having a bit more idea as to the effects that changing the shim sizes has would make this a little easier. And would running only 1 x 11mm shim have any negative effects? Does the pivot (11mm)shim/s need to be as fat as .2?

 

[Danger]

I've tried everything I can think of to try but still have the harshness on braking bumps. I've tried bleed valves, all the oil grades, two stage stacks, stiffer springs (today, too stiff and bouncy) and at a loss how to get these forks working. My best settings are:

BV
24x1
12x1
21x1
18x1
14x1
10x1
9x.3
9.5x2
18x.2

MV
24x.1
20x.1
15x.1
11x.1
24x.25
1.2mm float

rebound
std

ATF at 160 mm, full travel once or twice a ride, 2 x 5mm holes drilled above the bottom bearing.
.40kg fork spring rate.
Weight 180lbs.

Going to stiffer fork rate of .42 unbalanced bike, and forks felt so terrible I packed up and came home after only a half hour.
With the .40 springs, forks feel fantastic in whoops but rubbish in braking bumps, jackhammer, but little deflection. Tried sitting on rear of seat, clickers at extremes, no change in harshness. What else can I try? All thats left is to shorten rear shock travel when I get my new rear Racetech spring. I'm at a loss as to whats wrong with these damn forks! :bash: :bash: :bash:

 

[marcusgunby]

I tried for 3 years to get the ktm forks better-i found the answer, i got a cr125.

 

[Danger]

Good advice that I'm seriously considering after todays ride.

 

[ps2112]

to deansfastway

DEANSFASTWAY

Are you the same person who bid on my shock spring on E-bay?

PS2112

 

[DEANSFASTWAY]

spring

Maybe. ?? Which spring i bought a couple used ones . i guess I didnt win yours . which one was it .I always seem to get price sniped. let me know DEAN

 

[DEANSFASTWAY]

puter

Also about 3 weeks ago or so my computer went out and had a nervous breakdown .

 

[ps2112]

spring

Yes I'm a Rush fan, 2112 is the best album ever recorded :-). I still have the spring and will await the money order.
When I reply to your e-mails they always get bumped back?
Thanks
Paul

 

[DEANSFASTWAY]

Yeah Paul thats been a problem we installed a new spam filter thats too sensitive maybe Im not sure , Ill send you a M/O . Thanks DEAN

 

[DEANSFASTWAY]

Danger sometimes when looking for a plush setup Ill build something from lighter to bigger In other words Ill run something real light and build it stiffer on the BV to get by being too soft its easier that way then changing MV and BV and oil heights and oil weights all at once it seems easier to find then trying to hit the nail on the head all at once . But keep trying .On that last midvalve build youd probably be better starting with a 24x15 for durability reasons or starting with like a 16x10 then the 24x15 and use the 16 for a bleed . What are you using for your rebound stack?On your first post you stated something about adding more? Are you using delta shims ? Is it possible thayt theyre not lined up? If so that could be blocking your port a bit no? Just wondering . As far as drilling the bottom cones were using 1/16 or 1/8 around a third or halfway down the cone difference might be in usage of bike .Also on the triple bushing forks we like to use this PTFE grease on the bushings and seals and use spray moly on the seals as it seems to cut down on drag quite a bit . it does make little rings on the fork tube but feels much better .On the 3 bushing forks I think the added bushings displacement might add to a pumping affect on downstroke. Ive heatrd tell of the triple clamps on KTMs not being bored concentric also , could make for a binding affect.On that last build you pulled out the bleeds some 24s and also one of the 11s maybe try addind the 11 back and maybe youll have more flex on that 24. That lone single 24 will only last a short while on MX track I bet though .Maybe some WP experts can help more Good luck

 

[Danger]

Thanks Deansfastway. I have the two bushing forks. Std rebound currently. I did have an extra shim in there but removed it so that the adjuster fell in the middle of the available settings. I have been able to get full travel recently without drilling the cones and don't intend to drill them now.
Terry Hay was nice enough to get in touch and discuss my settings and has given me some things to try. Some sound advice I'm sure.