Studding tires

[outrgus]

I am thinking i would like to stub my tire so i can ride in the winter, what is involved, can i do this myself, what studs are recommended, and do these studs have to go a new tire or can i use the worn tires i presently have? Thanks for your help.

 

[KDXFreestyle]

take your old tire, and get some small sheetmetal screws. Take the tire off, and screw in every other knobbie, or every knobbie, from the inside. When it is done, you will have spikes sticking out. next, take a bicyvcle tube or something and layer it in the tire so you dont pop the tube when you blow it up and ride with it. Put the tire back on and your all set.

 

[kmccune]

I try to put as many studs/screws per knob as it seems will not tear out, some will however. Dennis Kirk has carbon studs, but just go to your home improvement store and get the most aggressive screw head that you can find. Not too long though.

 

[Knobbyjake]

I've found that if you put some superglue on the threads before putting them in the knobs they stay in a little better, especially in the rear tire. :cool:

 

[LukeRips]

Knobby, where do you ride?

 

[Knobbyjake]

In my back yard. :cool: Have about 200 acres of mountain like terrain in my backyard, courtesy of my nice neighbors. Also have a camp in Clarion, Pa. with miles of trails. Sadly, I haven't ridden for a couple years due to back problems, :bang: but my wife and kids still go. :ride: :

 

[Canadian Dave]

A well-built studded tire is a lot of fun, a poorly built tire is nothing but frustrating. To help ensure you aren't throwing studs continuously and popping tubes I'd recommend going with a tire liner so that you can install longer screws. The process is quite easy. You'll need to measure the inside diameter of the tire you are going to stud and find a matching used street bike tire with the same or very close outside diameter. You need to cut the side walls off the street bike tire and insert it inside the tire to be studded. The screw will go through the outside tire and into the liner. You can also buy Kenda premade liners. To prevent the tube from being pinched etc I install a cut tube between the liner and tube. Basically you just use the cut tube to wrap the tube. I use one-inch ice screws that I purchase from Fredette Racing Products, best prices I've found for a purpose built screw. I ice ride/race so the pattern I use will be different than what you'll likely want to go with unless you have a lake, pond etc near by then I'd highly recommend trying it out. I've got pictures of a couple patterns I've used when studding tires for ice and can email them if you'd like.

I’ll be building some new tires shortly. If people think its something they’d like to try, ice riding is a blast, I can take pictures as I go and write up a how-to article.

Yes try a used tire if you'd like but have a look at the tire's pattern before going ahead and studding it. The tire should have the knobs placed so that there can alway be a screw placed so that it makes contact with the ground/ice. The knob spacing on many tires is such that there is a gap between the face and side wall knobs that will cause an area of unstudded tire to make contact with the ground as you go into a corner and the tire will loose traction and slip from under you.

If you aren't sure you want to invest the time to build a durable studded tire you can certainly try the sheet metal screw idea on an unlined tire.

David

 

[kmccune]

Dave is right about real studs being better, it depends on how serious you are about winter riding and how much (deep) snow you get. There is an ice track (plowed lake) about 30 min from here and the guys with real studs rule. I think that hard pack tires in general work best, maybe due to the knob spacing CD spoke of.

 

[JTT]

...it also depends on whether you want to trail ride in the snow, or ride on plowed ice tracks. The setup varies with regards to stud patterns and angles.

I only ride on plowed ice tracks myself. A good set of tires is absolutely AMAZING in these conditions....dragging the footpeg is the norm.

Canadian Dave, where can you buy these Kenda liners? ..in Canada? I've not seen them.

 

[pyromaniac]

I have made quite a few different studded tires during the last 5 years or so.

There are different ways to studd a tire and they have their pros and cons. I have mostly used two types of studding.
Method #1 is the way you guys are talking about, screwing screws in the knobbies from the outside, using the heat of the screw for traction. This method i havent found working as good as i want, either the screws pull out or provide too little traction. Its possible it can provide enought traction and durability with kold kutters but then the whole idea why i started making my own tires dies - it had to be cheap.
The other method, #2 i have used is made of normal bolts from the inside of the tire and a nut on the outside. This method is alot more work than the other method. The good thing is when its made properly i have archived AMAZING traction, its almost impossible to spin the tire on pure ice.

I have made a new tire this winter that i yet havent put on but its method #1 but quite different so i call it method #3. I dont know what the screws are called in english but they are used to screw the big quite heavy non burning boards you probably have on your walls behind the wallpaper. Well you can see how it looks on the picture page. I have screwed two or three in each knob making a total off 410. Then cut off the head, giving them a lenght of about 45mm if i remember right, about 10mm are sticking out.They are 2.9mm thick. Its screwed just as deep as you cant feel the tip on the inside of the tire. I will use protection for the tube, usually i use a few layers of carpet. Since there are no head as you usually use its less likely that the screws will pull out, although i recommend using a very little worn tire for this method since its using the rubber to hold on, if you have a worn tire i suggest using method #2. If you want more info on that tire i can give the specs on the screws and more.

It will become more clear when you look on the pictures on the link below, picture pict0079s.jpg if method #3. Also have pictures on a very well working set on my ktm, using method #2.

It should be this url: http://int.pixum.com/viewalbum/?id=1536536

 

[JTT]

Pyro, aren't you afraid the screws in method #3 will get pushed through and puncture the tube?

 

[pyromaniac]

Pyro, aren't you afraid the screws in method #3 will get pushed through and puncture the tube?

No. I have used about the same type of screws but from the inside and out and they didnt get pushed into the tire. If they would, it would do so very slowly and i would be able to unscrew them back again. Also i have protection that would allow them to push in about 10mm without getting puncture and since they are only sticking out about 10mm its very unlikely they would ever push in more than 10mm so in other words very unlikely to get pucture.


BTW i think this would be the correct url to my page: http://int.pixum.com/members/pyromaniac/

Click on the studding tire album then overview on the left.

 

[Canadian Dave]

I’m no expert in ice tires but typically the ones I’ve seen built for off road riding use tall, about 3/8 - 1/2” spikes widely spaces, about one or two per knob. They dig through the snow better than a large number of smaller purposes built screws. For ice riding there are typically two types of tires built. One with a large number of Canadian Holiday style screws which are like a typical ice screw but with a taller head, about ¼” tall. They work well for soft ice, snow covered ice and I would think they would also work well off road riding if used like a spike. Typically they are used where you need to dig a little to get good traction. On harder exposed ice, or hard ice under a skiff of snow, standard ice screws are typically used. This is the style of tire I use. I don’t know the exact number of screws I put in a rear tire, it varies depending on what model tire used, but looking at the number of screws I have left from a box of 1000 screws I’d say I use about 500-600 screws in a typical rear tire. I'm going to try fewer screws in my next tire and experiment more with the screw pattern. I profile the rear tire to help improve straight-line traction as well as traction in corners before I install the screws and install the screws in the center section of the tire angled slightly backwards. Basically I make the tire a little flatter in the center and radius the edges so the profile is more like a street bike tire.

pyromaniac’s tire looks somewhat like a purpose built Telleborg winter grip tire with one or two tall spikes on each knob so this style of studding would likely work well for off road use where you need to dig through some snow before you can get traction. It sounds like they work well for bare ice too. You don’t see a lot of this style tire on lakes and ponds in North America because this style of stud, or the Canadian Holiday studs for that matter, are not AMA legal for ice racing. In Canada we can use the Canadian Holiday style screws and can use profiled tires for ice racing so they are a little more common here.

There is an art to making a good front tire as well. The good news is that the stock KDX front tire, Dunlop K-490, it the tire of choice for ice racers. On dirt its not great for anything but hard surfaces but for studding it rocks. Typically you’d install two ice screws per knob. I can take pictures of one pattern used while I stud my new tire if anyone is interested.

JTT Anyone who sells Kenda tires should be able to get liners for you. Here is one place on line that sells them http://www.anzwers.org/trade/hsdracing/ice_racing/kold kutter cheng shin.html and I think these guys do as well http://www.tiresunlimited.com/kenda_k335.htm , I bet Fredette Racing Products sells them too.

David

 

[outrgus]

Dave, some pictures would be good. I was going to try some riding in the mountains, so a picture of this type of pattern would be great, also do you have a picture of the screws your using as i.m still a bit confused on this.
Thanks
p.s. what part of alberta are you from?
outrgus at hotmail.com

 

[crazymike]

I have done a few studded tires in my days. The drywall screw method is the best bang for your buck.

Personally I stick to my snowmobile these days. The driving on ice thing was just a phase for me.

 

[Canadian Dave]

I'm in Fort Saskatchewan, about 20 minutes North East of Edmonton.

If you are in Calgary check out http://rockcentralcycle.supersites.ca/icetires/ go to their show room and have a look at their tires to get a feel for what you're building. They are using a 1.5" screw with 1/4" long head and large diameter shank so they need to use two liners instead of just one like I do. Talk to them and if they can get the 1" screws they should work no problem with just one liner. You can get an idea of the profile they are using on their web page as well.

I use the shorter head screws like Gold Ice or Kold Kutter screws though I think for you the taller head screws would work better. If you do a search for either of those two brand names you'll find lots of images. If you decide to go with the shorter head screw check around and see if you can find a Maveric screw. The distributer is here in Edmonton and they are a little cheaper than most and work well.

Here is some info that might also be useful www.trailrider.com/article_23.shtml

I do have access to a Fredette built Kenda ice tire as well. I think it would be better on the lake though as it wasn't designed for off road use. PM me if you're interested.

I hope that helps,

David

 

[outrgus]

Thanks for the info, Funny thing is i know andy very well and didn't even think of asking him on info for studding tire :bang: , i guess i will make the 20 min drive to rock central and talk.