Tony, Lou, Chili, Dave and other Digital Cam Types.. Help?

[Okiewan]

Okay, so my 6 year old Nikon 950 CoolPix (fixed lens) is lagging way behind, need to upgrade... anything that moves is a problem with that camera.

Typical uses... pics of the D-Man (Dylan) indoors and out, landscape stuff, DirtWeek type stuff, action (riding, etc) shots, product shots, etc.

Torn between the EOS Rebel XT and EOS 20D. I know the 20 is a better camera for several reasons, but wondering if it's money well spent for a typical amature user? I don't plan on becoming a pro MX photographer (ie LOUFINGER & ChiliDawg) :) I really cant see $800 lenses, but you never know. I just dont see myself with a library of instructional photo books or full gearbags... besides, gotta save some $ for a HD Camcorder when they drop in price a little.

I'll be starting from scratch, ie, need al the accessories... so the start-up cost is pretty high... ugg. Not sure what to do at this point so I'm looking for some suggestions.

One option.
20D with Sigma 18-55 & 55-200
http://www.amphotoworld.com/product.asp?id=cneos20dsgkit
I'm assuming the lenses are a lessor quality.

Option 2.
Rebel XT
http://www.amphotoworld.com/product.asp?id=cneosrdxt1785
Better single lense (I assume).

Option 3?
Rebel XT with the Sigma 70-200 suggested by chili in Lou's SLR thread? 70 too much for general/indoor use?

HELP!

Would I be better off (quality and $ wise) to get just the body and then a couple of lenses... or is there one general use lense?

 

[biglou]

A couple things: One, Sigma makes a great lens, just costs less than Canon brand. And yes, that 70-200 is too much for general stuff, IMO. It's a freaking cannon! (not "Canon", one "n"). Meaning, it's huge, and heavy.

IMO, the most cost effective thing going right now, if you can find one, is the original EOS Digital Rebel package with the smaller lens that is only available with the body as a package. I "think" you can get that package in the $600 range nowadays. Eboy has many "Buy It Now" sellers that sell a nice package of memory card, charger, filters, etc. for basically free when compared to the camera/lens combo.

It's a tough call, but I think a 20D is a bit much unless you're REALLY going to be doing some professional shooting. You've seen my shots, and Chili's, all shot with the original Rebel and that Sigma lens. And my earlier stuff was shot on a much shorter lens.

I'll be in chat for the race, btw...

 

[biglou]

btw-Two large, 1910x1200pixel high-res shots with my rebel and the sigma lens:
http://www.441designs.com/gallery/IMG_1658 copy.jpg
http://www.441designs.com/gallery/IMG_1662 copy.jpg

 

[Tony Eeds]

well, I'll confuse things ...

I would spring for the Canon 20D with the EFS 17-85mm IS lens in a heartbeat again. It was about 2K with a 2 gig CF card, camera and lens. I have found the 17-85 to be everything that I need.

My Canon D30 had a 28-200(?) mm lens which was nice, but the quality wasn't the same, photos or zoom action.

The problem with any digital camera nowdays is that they are outdated the day they are sold, hense the reason to spring the real $$ for the lens, which will always be worth the $$ invested. Bodies will come and go, but if you pick a system (Canon or Nikon) and stick with it, you will always have a good gear package.

 

[biglou]

Tony nailed it. The glass is where it's at. :cool:

 

[Okiewan]

Yeah and the glass costs as much as the body.. Ugg.
I told Lou earlier that I DO NOT want to buy another camera after this. this new one will be the long term keeper.

I'm considering a package deal on the 20D, then if the zoom doesn't cut it for action stuff, I guess I can upgrade to the one Lou just got.


--------------
1899.00


Canon EOS 20D
Digital SLR Camera USA

Canon EOS 20d digital camera body
BP511a battery
CG580 battery charger
USB cable
Video cable
instructions
warranty
3 CDROM software discs
Wide strap

Kit:

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 Zoom Lens
Focal Length & Maximum Aperture: 18-55mm 1:3.5-5.6
Lens Construction: 11 elements in 9 groups
Diagonal Angle of View: 75-degrees 20' - 27degrees 50'
Focus Adjustment: Inner focusing system with MM
Closest Focusing Distance: 0.28m / 0.92 ft. to infinity
Zoom System: Rotating Type
Filter Size: 58mm
Max. Diameter x Length: 2.7 x 2.6 in. / 69mm x 66.2mm
Weight: 6.7oz./ 190g


Canon EF 75-300 F/4.0-5.6 III Lens
Filter Size 58mm
F-Stop Range 4.0-32 / 5.6-45
Minimum Focus Distance 4.9Feet or 1.5 meters
Magnification 1:4
Zoom/Focus Control Two-Touch (Rotating Zoom)
Angle Of View 32 (75mm) - 8 (300mm) Deg.
Groups/Elements 9/13 Length 4-13/16" (122.1mm)
Max. Diameter 2-13/16" (71mm)
Weight 16.8 Oz. (480g)

3 Piece HIGH Resolution Filter Kit - 58MM
UV filter-Reduces blue haze caused by UV light by absorbing 71% of UV.
Nuetral Density-Eliminates overly bright, washed out images. Great for video.
Fluorescent-Provide pleasing skintones and corrects color under fluorescent lighting.

Hitachi 4GB MicroDrive
Small size and enhanced 4GB capacity permits you to carry an entire continent of maps or 1,000 songs in your pocket. Reliable storage for data, photos, music, and videos from digital cameras, PDAs, handheld PCs, MP3 digital audio players, laptops and other portable handheld devices.

Auto Bounce Digital Flash
Built with a built-in slave that's triggered by your camera's flash
This bounce flash also provides manual, auto, and auto-with-slave settings for digital or film cameras
This compact flash takes standard AA batteries (not included).


Heavy Duty Aluminum Hard Case w/Dividers
Heavily padded shock-proof material to protect your camera and equipment
Made for multi-purpose use, with dividers for a custom fit
Professional fashion design
Adjustable shoulder strap
Outside: 13 x 10 1/4 x 5 1/8
Inside: 12 3/8 x 9 5/8 x 4 1/2
Weight: 4.19 lbs


Deluxe All Weather Proof Carrying Case

Deluxe Video & Photo Tripod
Perfect for digital, video and still cameras weighing up to 4 pounds.
20mm-diameter aluminum, 3-section legs.
3-way pan head with quick release and bubble level.
Snap quick release leg locks and geared centerpost for fast, sure operation.
Maximum Height: 53"
Max. Load: 4 lbs.
Minimum operating height: 20"
Folded Length: 21"
Weight: 2 lbs.

 

[a454elk]

Here's my take, from a new to camera kinda guy. I did go for the 20D for a bunch of reasons, one mainly, I won't be buying another one after this. I shoot alot of indoor stuff for the lil elkster and that was another reason for the purchase. My advice is to get it through Costco online or at a store. They have a good package deal for the rebel as well as the 20D and the kicker is if it has a problem, for as long as you own it, you can bring it back and get your money back. I buy what I can from them but the extra lens was bought elsewhere. I think the rebel has a new model out but I can't remember the name, and they have it at Costco.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?ec=BC-EC19-Cat83&pos=2&whse=BC&topnav=&prodid=11041847

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11027052&whse=BC&topnav=&cat=3264&hierPath=79*83*

That's my advice, coming from someone that enjoys taking pictures but not as a business!

 

[Tony Eeds]

Good choice of equipment.

I would go with a regular CF card rather than a microdrive.

My 2 gig card will hold 483 high rez photos at one time. That is a awful lot to download as it is. Besides the microdrive pulls juice from the camera battery to run.

I would also get the Canon 580 flash unit. 100% compatable with the camera. I have the Canon 550 which is slightly older, but will still melt paint if needed.

 

[Okiewan]

Thanks Elk...
I got away from the eboy / mail order stuff and beat the crap outta Best Buy. Extended warranty/replacement etc.

And the decision was:

Yeah it was more than I originally wanted to spend and still have to get that killer lens Chili & Lou have, I'll wait til DirtWeek for that to less'n the pain. I too NEVER want to buy another body.

I got the opportunity to handle and shoot some pics with both pieces, while the Rebel XT isn't as small as I thought it was going to be, it just isn't as comfortable in the hand. The deciding factors for me, in no particular order;

1) Mag body of the 20D vs plastic of the rebel
2) Size/Feel
3) Viewfinder size... too small on the rebel imho
4) Expected life , 20 D is double the XT
5) speed.. the 20D clicks off some high speed images! 5 frames per second and 27 frames, vs 3 per and I think 14 on the XT
6) Menuing, adjustments, etc. a LOT better than the XT IMHO.

So there it is. I'm so freaking broke, but happy. Can't wait for that battery to get charged.

Thanks for all the help in this thread and the "Advanced" thread of Lou's.

 

[Okiewan]

5 years ago, this is what you got for not much less....
Now it's off to the daughter so she can send lot's o' pic of that little boy.

 

[Tony Eeds]

Congratulations boss!

You will have to hook my 17-85mm IS and my 300mm IS on there at DW and tell me what you think.

Enjoy!!!

 

[Okiewan]

Oaky, been messing with the 20 for a few hours. I want to put this up and get some feedback... I know the cam and probably even the cheap lense can shoot better than this.

1) It's a crap 70-300mm, 4.5 "Quantaray" lense that they threw in to sweeten the deal, think it's about $140 at the cam store.
2) Shutter speed = 5000, ISO = 400, WB=cloudy, Color Space Adobe RGB, shutter priority
3) reduced 50% quality
4) the lighting level isn't off by much at all, very overcast.

 

[XRpredator]

hey, wasn't there eye candy in those lounge chairs last time you took a pic?

I already don't like this camera as much.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

I was thinking the same thing Pred. Leave it to Okie to take a picture of the pool when the chairs are EMPTY. :bang:

Adjust those settings RIGHT NOW MISTER.

 

[Okiewan]

Contrary to popular belief, I can't make the sun shine :p

 

[Chili]

Well I missed this thread while on vacation but you'll be very happy with the 20D. Given that I have Canon glass now it will be my next camera (hopefully before DW). Had I replied to this thread prior to your purchase I would have recommended the Nikon D70s which would have saved you some $$$ and fit right in between the XT and 20D. It's what I wish I would have bought so that I wasn't already looking to upgrade to the 20D. Like Tony I'd also recommend staying away from the microdrive although the price is pretty tempting when looking for more storage. Right now I have a 2 Gig and a 1 Gig Kingston Pro Elite card as well as a Sandisk Extreme III 1 Gig card and I figure the Kingstons are darn near as fast and a much better deal in Canada.

 

[a454elk]

lol

Nice shot Okie. Look up that book I suggested to Lou in his thread, it really opened my eyes and my lens. ;)

And DAMN you're fast, took a picture of the 20D WITH the 20D!

 

[Okiewan]

I already ordered it (the book) Carlo, thanks for the heads-up.

Chili...
Wondering about your D70 comment.
I've read that some think it takes pics as good as the 20d, some say better, it's subjective I guess, one of those endless arguments. Most admit there is more noise with the D70.

The AF on the canon is supposed to be superior, how much of a factor in the real word do you think that is? 5 frames a second is a pretty substancial difference as well.

Some say it's (D70) an easier camera to use
It's a composite body, so it's lighter and slightly smaller. Don't know if thats a positive or not.
Regarding the 70-200 Sigma you suggested, am I right that the Nikon mount is $100 less? With the body and lens cost, that's a $600 swing!
The kit lens with the Nikon is supposed to be better. (not talking about the USM canon lens)
The D70 is def. $500 less!

Question would be, low-light stuff, typically lit indoor night time stuff? How important is 3200?
Apparently your opinion is that the Nikon is good for action stuff assuming that's your main use.

I know there's not much difference between 6 & 8 megapixels, except print size (8 can print 20x30) and allowing more croping options. Not sure how much of a factor that would be to me, I'd have to actually be a photographer to want to print any of my stuff at 20x30.

I've got a month to play and decide, so I'm not "stuck" with the Canon. A body thats easy to use, shoots as good with better lenses for the same $ has me in analysis paralysis :)

 

[Okiewan]

And BTW, sun shines 8 months straight, until I get a camera :(

 

[Green Horn]

And BTW, sun shines 8 months straight, until I get a camera :(

Yeah that happens when you get new bikes, cars, boats etc...too. :laugh:

 

[a454elk]

Okie, the Canon will go to 3600 on custom settings but I stay at 1600 for all my indoor stuff. I utilize the image stabalizing canon 75-300 lens and it allows the slow shutter speeds. The good thing about the canon is that at 1600, it has an extremely low noise level on the photos. I went with a 1 gig card and it shoots over 200+ shots at the highest level. It's best to shoot high that way you can always go smaller if you need, but never bigger if you aren't there already. ;) I shot a long distance shot of a balloon a while back and was able to zoom in on the photo enough to read the small 1/8" print on the edge of it. I was pretty impressed, but it doesn't take much to get me there. :)

It also says you can shoot about 1000 shots one charge of the battery, not, I shot a ton more, with flash, just to try and kill the thing to no avail!

 

[Chili]

Okie the 20D is a better camera than the D70 based on all the research I've done. It performs better with less noise at high ISO settings. I'm not sure on the cost of the Sigma in a nikon mount but usually they are the same price. My comments were based on the fact that I am a little disappointed that I'm looking to upgrade from my Digi Rebel after such a short time. The D70 and new D70s has all the features my Rebel has me hating at this point and would have saved me some $. My take is if the purchase isn't going to break the bank I'd stick with the 20D you already have especially since your looking long term. If the cost was a significant factor in the purchse I'd likely look at the nikon. If you want extra battery look at purchasing generics from Sterlingtek.com they are a higher Mah rating, last longer than the Canon OEM and are significantly cheaper. On most race days I use 4 batteries, my vertical grip holds two at a time and I switch them at lunch so that I don't run out while on the track. With two batteries in the grip I can usually shoot roughly 1200 shots depending on how much chimping I do between moto's and how much other playing around I do with the camera besides shooting.

 

[Okiewan]

Yeah, cost is always an issue :( ...
I catch my self wondering if I should go with a lesser body and put to money in the lens, there by getting everything sooner, lol. As it is I'll stick with the 20D and SOMEDAY be able to get a good lens.

As I said before, I suffer greatly from AP (Analysis Paralysis)

Thanks for the input.

 

[Tony Eeds]

:)

With two batteries in the grip I can usually shoot roughly 1200 shots depending on how much chimping I do between moto's and how much other playing around I do with the camera besides shooting.

Dayum, 1200 shots!!!

One thing that will clearly affect battery life is the using the on-board flash and using the IS mode if you have IS lens. They both pull their power from camera battery.

I have yet to purchase the battery grip although it has been on my radar screen.

Chili: I have tried non OEM batteries with higher Mah ratings and have been disappointed with the life of the batteries. Of course I only have the one on board battery so that might be part of the issue.

I am going to make sure you have a FULL press pass at DW! :)

 

[Okiewan]

I'm eyeing the battery grip as well .. heard there were some shorting issues early on, I'm assuming it's passed. Eiither way, canon will obviously fix it FOC should you get a bad one. As much as an additonal battery would be nice, shooting portrait would def. be a lot easier... in addition to better balance with a longer lens.

I REALLY want to save-up for that Sigma lens tho! Ugg.

Signed,
The Impatient One