Tried to support the local shop

[CR Swade]

How do these guys buy the same thing you buy so much cheaper?


Mark

In our business sector it is either through huge buying groups that buy direct form manufacturer and then peddle on the internet OR an internet company will buy incentive laden products and sell under cost to make $50 on the factory incentive.

In other words, in both cases they skip the distributor and sell the same way Wally World does...low or losing margins and high volume w/ little or no customer service. Yup, small business HATES internet/Walmart type slashing

 

[CR Swade]

Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't understand how it can be $150 UNDER your cost. Or to put it another way, what is stopping you from getting this item for $699 from the internet just like anybody else? Are you saying that your distributor is ripping you off? I don't run a small business (obviously) so it is likely I don't understand something fundamental about it. Please educate me.

These items sold on the internet are a retail sale. Product warranty is VERY implicit in that once something is sold for retail the warranty starts and stops with that purchaser...unless specifically stated (lifetime warranty, etc and even those rarely transfer from person to person)

In other words, I buy a pool heater from my distributor and it is considered a wholesale to the trade sale. Warranty/product liability begins once my company sells it to you. If I buy from Joe Schmoe internet group the warranty starts and stops with me as it is considered a retail sale. If you buy it from me it is now a non-warranted item as far as the facotry is concerned and a non-insured item as far as my business liability insurance is concerned.

Factor in insurance, fuel, inventory, TAXES, sales tax, overhead...nope 15% isn't even gonna break even. I'm not saying that gouging is fair either, what I am saying is that it happens way less than most people think

 

[CR Swade]

oops, double post

 

[CR Swade]

That's another position I don't understand. Why not charge those customers your true labor+profit rate? You are an expert in your field, so your customers have to pay you for your expertise. That's what my local harley guy does for things like tires. He is very upfront about it, and I understand and respect his position: he has to make a profit if someone walks into his shop with a set of tires bought off the 'net and wants to have them mounted on rims. He is willing to do that at his normal hourly labor rate..however long it takes to get the job done. Or you can buy the tires from him for full retail price and mounting will be included - either way it's the customer's choice. Doesn't that seem like a reasonable approach?

Nope its a huge liability risk as explained earlier.

 

[mtk]

How is the liability risk of installing customer-supplied tires any greater than installing dealer-supplied tires?

I'd be VERY suprised to see anything in a Business Owner's Policy insurance policy that differentiated between the two.

 

[jmics]

How is the liability risk of installing customer-supplied tires any greater than installing dealer-supplied tires?

I'd be VERY suprised to see anything in a Business Owner's Policy insurance policy that differentiated between the two.

wasn't there a bit off a riff between Ford and Firestone a few years ago?

Hypothetical situations in this land of oppurtunity which is grossly miss understood as " I'll sue!"

take a vehicle in for tires tell service manager "I want new tires call me when it is done" The service manager will call a supplier that he trusts to get him what he needs and he will install it . An incident happens because of a tire failure . You tell service manager,service manager will talk to supplier to figure out what went wrong if anything before anyone lawyers up to cover their :moon: .

same vehicle , same service manager, same tire bought out of the loop,same incident first thing said is "must be the tire""must be the way it was installed" and immediately every body goes to lawyer up to cover their :moon:

As a service manager/shop owner are you going to want to open your door to this possiblility without someone you can fall back on to help? As a customer are you going to want to investigate the what and why or are you going to want to go to the guy that you just trusted to take care of everything?

Bottom line if you want service(somebody to look up the part number,order it,most likely try to answer your questions to the best of their ability about installations,not force you to take it and pay shipping back and forth if it is incorrect with week long waits in between correspondence of figuring out what happened,basicly responsibilty about making sure the right part and possible right installation is at your request) pay the dealership that you trust to take care of your questions,orders.

If you want the cheapest well ,deal with the dissapointments of possible typo's, shipping rates back and forth, put on hold with a long distant phone number while you are trying to work etc....

Best thing I came up with so far is finding a good dealer who I can work with, I look up all the part number's online,or at the dealer if their schedule fits mine, I drop off my "wish list" at the parts counter, tell him to get it at his convenience.He doesn't have to try to understand what I want only my handwriting,,he won't have to pay shipping because he can wait for his order to fill up,if it is my typo I eat it, if it is his typo he eats it,simple ,clean and pretty darn cheap.

If it is something I must have now well cost be damned buy that part a plane ticket on me and ship it to me yesterday."that $0.98 item costs me 60$ becuase I am stopping you from what you are doing to make sure this stupid bolt has a plane ticket with my name on it ,well here let me buy you a pizza for helping me out, thanks"

 

[mtk]

The situation between Ford and Firestone has absolutely no relevance to this discussion. Some idiots drove Explorers too fast, with underinflated tires, and then overcorrected and crashed when the tire failed. That isn't a tire defect, it is operator error (look up tire inflation tables and speed ratings for more info). But someone had to get thrown under the bus and Ford chose Firestone for that honor.

Same with the Service Manager "getting tires from a source he trusts." A Dunlop is a Dunlop, regardless of who's cash register processed the sale.

There is no increased liability for installing a carry-in tire, particularly if it is new. More importantly, if there was increased liability it would show up as a clause in an insurance policy. Since car shops install used tires all the time, I'm quite sure it isn't a common clause in the insurance policies bought by service shops. It is nothing more than the shops desire to obtain all the profits from both the tire sale and the mounting service, which is completely their perogative.

 

[CR Swade]

There is no increased liability for installing a carry-in tire, particularly if it is new. More importantly, if there was increased liability it would show up as a clause in an insurance policy. Since car shops install used tires all the time, I'm quite sure it isn't a common clause in the insurance policies bought by service shops. It is nothing more than the shops desire to obtain all the profits from both the tire sale and the mounting service, which is completely their perogative.

Next time, before coming off as expert on all of this, better be sure. My insurer and bonding agent SPECIFICALLY requires in the case of electrical parts, gas-fired heaters, etc. that no used or second sale parts be used. Like or not, that is product liability being spelled out by the insurers. I don't care what a service station in Anonymous, USA does w/ used tires...its an apples to oranges comparison.

And yes jmics, you hit the nail on the head when it comes to insurance companies battling it out to figure out who is responsible in a catastrophic or warranty failure situation.

 

[mtk]

And this policy you have is the same as the one purchased by a typical service station? Not too many service stations install gas-fired heaters. Sounds like yet another apples-to-oranges comparison.

You don't run a shop either so neither one of us is an "expert" on this topic. My BOP insurance isn't the same as your BOP insurance so it is foolish to assume that a service station would have the exact same wording as either of ours.

As for a random station in "Anonymous, USA," you make it sound like this is unheard of in the business. It isn't. I guarantee that EVERY person reading this in the USA could find a local shop that will install new tires from an outside vendor. By the same token, it would be simple for them to find a car shop that will install used tires brought in by the customer as this is done CONSTANTLY in the USA. Lots of folks have winter and summer tires and only one set of wheels. I've yet to hear of ONE individual being turned away at a car shop when they want to get their summer tires installed. Not one. Or is this insurance requirement only for motorcycle shops (also highly unlikely)?

If this insurance prohibition was that widespread, those examples would be VERY rare, which they are not. That leads me to one conclusion: the shop is using "insurance requirements" as an excuse to not do the work, most likely because they're pissed the customer didn't want to get raped by prices 100% higher than mail order.

And for the record, I get my street tires at a local non-franchised shop. He stocks plenty of tires and has them at reasonable prices, unlike the monkeys at the franchised shops who want outrageous prices and do shoddy work to boot. He'll also mount mail-order tires too, but at increased prices. And unlike the franchised shops, he doesn't expect me to pay $300 for a tire I can get from him, or mail order, for $200 or less. He's also a pretty knowledgeable and strikes me as a by-the-book kind of guy so I highly doubt he'd risk his insurance protection to make an extra $20 here and there.

 

[CR Swade]

mtk,

whether you or I like it or not...this is the way service companies are being forced to do business. Plus, insurance/bonding etc is starting to apply these rules in service all over. Its not my rules, I just have to adhere to them. Try taking an intake manifold, shocks, tires, etc. from a different supplier into a manufacturer certified shop (GM, Ford, etc.)and tell them to use your parts...just charge me for the labor. It just doesn't happen. Honestly, would you send a cylinder, piston, valves and everything else to Eric Gorr and expect him to assemble it for you? Or maybe some internet suspension components to Jeremy Wilkey and expect him to provide labor only? I think it is unfair to the service company. Maybe I'm wrong and those shops do that, but I wouldn't ask that of a service shop.

All that aside, we are still straying from what Brian ran into. Shop pricing on parts...and I'm telling you it is almost impossible to buy much cheaper wholesale than what you or I as Joe Public can buy for on the internet. Good for the public intitially, bad for the shops which means bad for the customers eventually. Point being, next time you run into your buddy w/ the sevice station ask him if he would rather sell you product also or just provide the labor. We both know the price whores take money off of his bottom line at end-of-year and that is hard on that little shop.

I have no quarrel w/ you so its cool that we've kept it civil. What I do know is this, I've worked managing parts for a cycle shop and literally I could buy many parts as cheap or cheaper on the internet than the shop could order for wholesale...and that is a tough one to get around.

 

[blackduc98]

Honestly, would you send a cylinder, piston, valves and everything else to Eric Gorr and expect him to assemble it for you?

I think Eric does in fact do that. IMHO I see nothing unreasonable about supplying my own parts and paying an expert mechanic for his mechanical expertise only. Of course I'd expect him to charge a labor rate that is profitable for him, and perhaps ask me to sign a waiver if I supply my own parts. Just as an example, when you send your cylinder to USChrome for replating, you can either supply your own piston, or you can buy one from them. Either way they warrantee their work for 1 year.

CRSwade, you mentioned that if a shop buys from a cheap internet source as opposed to a distributor, the warranty does not transfer to the customer. That didn't occur to me, so thanks for pointing that out. But you've got me thinking: how many of the parts I buy come with warranty? I imagine the battery for my street bike probably does, but I wonder if anything installed in an off-road bike or race bike has any warranty, particularly if I install it myself? Just curious.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

I think Eric does in fact do that.

Not anymore. We stopped doing it a while back. The liability is just too great these days. There are just too many scumbags selling mismarked junk on e-bay to unsuspecting people who think they are getting the deal of a lifetime.

It happens something like this. A guy buys a HotCam on e-bay and sends it in to get installed along with the piston he bought and the various other pieces. When you call the customer up and tell him that his NEW HotCam is just a used OEM cam that someone spray painted black and stuck in a HotCam box, the customer more times than not calls you a thief and is convinced you "switched" it on him. Or you get a guy who sends in a box of new parts for an an engine rebuild and they are either damaged, mismarked, or just plain wrong for the application. So you have a pissed off customer, and a job taking up your time, money and space. Of course these are the same clowns who want you to warranty the parts THEY bought from someone else. There are enough stories to fill a book.

After getting burned enough times we learned to just say NO THANKS to the "I want to supply my own parts" type customers.

PEOPLE LIKE THAT ARE TOO EXPENSIVE TO DEAL WITH.

I IMHO I see nothing unreasonable about supplying my own parts and paying an expert mechanic for his mechanical expertise only.

I'm guessing that's because you've never been on the mechanic's side of this equation.

If you want to buy your own parts, then I'd suggest you get a manual as well so you'll know how to install them yourself.

Whether it's due to the huge number of people selling stolen parts on e-bay for less than dealer cost, or just people changing and expecting something for nothing, the days of good engine builders dealing with this BS are pretty much OVER.

 

[Jaybird]

I think choice is a great thing. Very American as well...

I have always found that if I get edumacated on how to service an item myself, be it a bike engine or a pool pump, I can save beaucoup coins by finding the parts on-line, or at a discount house, and doing the work myself. If I hose it up, shame on me...
This may be related to my having some farm experience growing up.
Ask a farmer who does his work when his bailer throws craps on him...

This is America...and if a business has found a way to outsell you, and is taking market share away from you, it is best that you find a way to massage your business plan to regain market share...

 

[CR Swade]

This is America...and if a business has found a way to outsell you, and is taking market share away from you, it is best that you find a way to massage your business plan to regain market share...

Jaybird hit the nail on the head...and so far its working for us

 

[mtk]

mtk,
whether you or I like it or not...this is the way service companies are being forced to do business. Plus, insurance/bonding etc is starting to apply these rules in service all over. Its not my rules, I just have to adhere to them. Try taking an intake manifold, shocks, tires, etc. from a different supplier into a manufacturer certified shop (GM, Ford, etc.)and tell them to use your parts...just charge me for the labor. It just doesn't happen.

Actually, I took a Luk aftermarket clutch into my local Ford dealer and had it installed into my truck. I told the Service Manager straight up that the Ford parts were total **** and I refused to have remanufactured junk installed in my truck after the OE junk failed. They installed it without a problem. Now maybe that had something to do with my truck being flatbedded into the dealer with a broken clutch fork (factory defective part, which had been redesigned four times from the one installed at the factory in mine) but they installed it none the less.

But all this is a side-issue as we were talking about TIRES, not engine parts. Telling a new tire from a used one isn't rocket science. It is either new or it isn't. And as I said before, car shops install old tires all the time so I simply don't buy the BS line about insurance regulations prohibiting service shops from installing tires the shop didn't sell. If that were true, then 99% of all service stations are working outside their insurance coverage. That just doesn't strike me as reasonable. Yes, some shops may take a risk like that, but I don't see everyone having that tolerance for risk. After all, many of these same places have the "Employees Only in Service Area due to Insurance Requirements" sign posted, which is a requirement I can believe.

 

[blackduc98]

Not anymore. We stopped doing it a while back. The liability is just too great these days. There are just too many scumbags selling mismarked junk on e-bay to unsuspecting people who think they are getting the deal of a lifetime.

Makes me sad to hear that a few bad apples multiplied by the power of internet spoil it for everyone.

I'm guessing that's because you've never been on the mechanic's side of this equation.

If you want to buy your own parts, then I'd suggest you get a manual as well so you'll know how to install them yourself.

No, I have never been on your side of this equation, so I can't blame you for changing your business model to adapt to today's environment. I enjoy working on my bikes because I like to learn new things, and because I like to have confidence in my machine. But it would be nice to know that there is a real pro who can rescue me if I get in over my head.

 

[karterron]

Shops that install other parts are still somewhat plentiful. I agree with others who have posted about what their current business practices are. They have every right to protect their interest anyway they see fit and if they can still be profitable, more power to them. I have yet to have any problem finding shops that want all the business they can get regardless of where you bought the product and I have had dealings with shops where I bought from them and had it installed. I don't have a problem with either. But for anyone to say the norm is for a shop not to install others products or blame insurance is flat wrong. I work in Insurance and know those policies very well. They may be choosing that type of coverage because it fits their business practice and saves them money, but these are not normal policies. That's fine and their choice, it's also your choice as a customer to either do business with them or go elsewhere. But bottom line, it's the shops choice and has nothing to do with insurance.

Like Rich said, they had problems with the internet crowd and CHOOSE not to do business that way anymore. Can't blame them with the experience they have had. If they can be sucessful and keep busy without it, that's their business choice.

But let's not pretend everyone does business that way or that Insurance regulations state things that simply aren't true. Bottom line, this is the way the business chooses to do business. That's fine and their right, but lets not pass the buck and act like it's anything but your choice to do business that way.

 

[mtk]

Ah, but when you have an angry customer at the counter it is much easier to blame your insurance policy than to tell them the truth. ;)

 

[jmics]

The situation between Ford and Firestone has absolutely no relevance to this discussion. Some idiots drove Explorers too fast, with underinflated tires, and then overcorrected and crashed when the tire failed. That isn't a tire defect, it is operator error (look up tire inflation tables and speed ratings for more info). But someone had to get thrown under the bus and Ford chose Firestone for that honor.

Same with the Service Manager "getting tires from a source he trusts." A Dunlop is a Dunlop, regardless of who's cash register processed the sale.

There is no increased liability for installing a carry-in tire, particularly if it is new. More importantly, if there was increased liability it would show up as a clause in an insurance policy. Since car shops install used tires all the time, I'm quite sure it isn't a common clause in the insurance policies bought by service shops. It is nothing more than the shops desire to obtain all the profits from both the tire sale and the mounting service, which is completely their perogative.

hold on.....

 

[jmics]

Ah, but when you have an angry customer at the counter it is much easier to blame your insurance policy than to tell them the truth. ;)

so basicly somebody had to be blamed for a bunch of ill maintained tires on the ford issue . how long did this blaming game go on for ? For apparently a lot of personal mistakes, would a small local shop want to bother with aggravation let alone be able to afford it?


Darn tootin it is a lot easier to say "due to insurance regulations......." although I am sure it would be much more gratifying for the shop owner to say" You look like a big butthead I refuse to work for you" if the guy comes in witha big attitude over something that may or may not have happened. Unfortunately the shop owner wouldnt have too many customers just from bad word of mouth because you know the butthead in question would never think it was his fault , and would spend a considerable amount of time trying to blame the shop over something that might not have been the shop's fault.

 

[Tony Eeds]

The situation between Ford and Firestone has absolutely no relevance to this discussion. Some idiots drove Explorers too fast, with underinflated tires, and then overcorrected and crashed when the tire failed. That isn't a tire defect, it is operator error (look up tire inflation tables and speed ratings for more info). But someone had to get thrown under the bus and Ford chose Firestone for that honor.

hold on.....

Why? He is correct. B/F (Japanese) assumed honor had something to do with the equation. Ford (American) knew different. It was all about perception, attorneys and insurance companies.

It was a Ford problem from the get go. As I understand it, Ford specified an inflation for the tire that resulted in it being operated outside of (or on the edge of) the tire's design parameters. Have you ever ridden in a 4x4 Bronco II? They have the highest roll over rate of all vehicles on the road and the Explorer evolved from them. Funny how Ford "redesigned" the Explorer the year after they started flipping like hot cakes ...

Remember the news snippet of the trooper flipping the tire tread back onto the top of the tire of the rolled Explorer that ran at least weekly on most TV stations? Go back and look at it again. The inner plys of the tire appear intact and as I understand it, were still holding air. Why did the tire delaminate? Underinflation perhaps?

You want to talk insurance? I am an architect and my Errors and Omissions and Liability Insurance costs and verbage would bring you to your knees. I am constantly battling with contractors trying to get specified materials on a jobsite, much less try to get the dang stuff installed correctly, never mind "substitutions".

Much of this discussion revolves around a term we call "or equal" in my world. I specified it and that means there is no "or equal". There may be acceptable substitutes (better quality) and unacceptable substitutes (lesser quality) products offered, but it is my right to accept or reject them (as the owners representative).

Oh yea ... my liability on my projects run for a minimum of ten years, and longer assuming an attorney can prove gross neglegence. There in always an "expert" willing to point the finger of blame, for the right price.

One last thought ... I would never ask my local shop to install parts they do not sell me. Mark will not do it, even for me, and we are best friends. He is in business and deserves to make a living without increasing his business risk because of bottom feeders.

If I buy parts via the internet, I install them ... Cars, Trucks, Bikes, Computers ... whatever. I am smarter for having installed them and frankly it increases my respect for those in the service industries that struggle to survive in the current business environment.

As a small aside ... got a dog or cat? 1-800-Petmeds is killing my vets business. I can either pay him more for the shots and his expertice or I can learn to take care of my animals myself. No, I didn't and don't buy my food from him, but I do get the meds for the animals from him. Meds and food are a large part of his "profit model".

I am not knocking Wally World, but their "profit model" is screwing with the "profit model" of many small businesses across the globe, inside and outside of their "customer sphere".

A big :cool: to all the small business folks that get up every day believing in the American dream. We are the heart and perhaps more importantly, soul, of the American dream.

 

[Tony Eeds]

Another quickie ...

I used to own a millwork business ...

A fellow and his wife come in wanting a quote for a set of cabinets for their house they are going to build. I can tell they are tire kickers, so I do a quick linear foot estimate of cost ...

Husband: OMG, that is WAY too high was the response, we can get them for a third of that at Handy Dan (a cheap lumberyard long out of business here)!

I opened the door to the shop and replied ... You hear that? It is the sound of 12 people and over a quarter a million dollar investment in equipment and inventory. My millwork is all custom and we install it, does Handy Dan? ( No :nod: )

They left, but the look on the wife's face was priceless. Every now and again I still wonder if they ever got the house built, or if she divorced him. ;)

 

[mtk]

It was a Ford problem from the get go. As I understand it, Ford specified an inflation for the tire that resulted in it being operated outside of (or on the edge of) the tire's design parameters. Have you ever ridden in a 4x4 Bronco II? They have the highest roll over rate of all vehicles on the road and the Explorer evolved from them. Funny how Ford "redesigned" the Explorer the year after they started flipping like hot cakes ...

They redesigned it for the same reason Audi dropped the 5000 model; it wasn't going to sell any longer because of the bad press. As for the Bronco II, I'll bet the older Jeep CJ-3 and CJ-5 models rolled over as much or more than those. But in exchange for that increased rollover risk, the Jeeps made excellent off-road vehicles. You can't have it all.

As for the tire issue, the most telling thing I saw in the entire affair was a test done by Motor Trend (or one of the other glossy car mags) where they put a solenoid valve on the front tire of an Explorer, which allowed them to deflate the tire in a few seconds. They ran tests up to 70mph or so and kept deflating the tire. Not once did they have a problem. The last test they even had the driver let go of the wheel while they deflated the tire.

Those rollovers were all caused by operator error. The driver overcorrected and rolled the truck. "Truck" being the operative word. Yes, a truck or SUV has a higher center of gravity than a car and is more likely to roll over. If you buy one, you should know this and drive accordingly. If you don't and roll it, that doesn't mean the vehicle is defective, it means you failed in learning how to properly control your vehicle. Alas, the prevailing legal doctrine in this country is that you can be a clueless ass and the world should cater to making sure you don't kill yourself due to your own stupidity.

Ford's inflation pressure spec was within the tire's design envelope, if I recall correctly, but it was on the edge of it as Tony noted. However, many, many folks never check their tire pressures and tires can lose pressure over time. So underinflation is common. That isn't Ford's fault, it is the vehicle owner's fault. The tires on a truck or SUV are also not speed rated (not to mention that tire inflation tables call for slightly increased pressures for sustained high speed running). But if you drive in Southern California (or Atlanta, or many other places) you'll find traffic moving at 80mph or more and people in SUVs running with this traffic. A nice, hot day, combined with low tire pressures and sustained high speeds, and a tire failure is likely. Follow that with an incompetent driver who overcorrects and you get the E-ticket ride on the rollover express.

 

[CR Swade]

A big :cool: to all the small business folks that get up every day believing in the American dream. We are the heart and perhaps more importantly, soul, of the American dream.

The American Dream...couldn't have said it better. I still gotta believe the dedicated small business owners who are willing to stay on top of their trade and go the extra mile to provide what Wally World and the internet price whores can NOT provide will always be in business. More than ever people want and need personal service...not just a wholesale price complete w/ voice prompt and intructions for e-service when things get sticky. For us, another record year and less headaches by trying to match the sharks. As for now, gotta go battle some more internet/bargain basement windmills