robwbright
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- Apr 8, 2005
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Two Year old Cite by Police!
- Thread starter robwbright
- Start date
- Oct 13, 1999
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Not enough riding time?
Thump
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- Jan 17, 2000
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The kid probably would not have been cited if the Mother had not refused his requests. I don't have a problem with the officer's actions. The problem I do have is the lesson his mother just taught him. That it is okay to refuse to do what an officer of the law says, argue with him and tear up a citation given. Great lesson for the the kid to have learned that day.
Growing up a friend of mine was caught shoplifting army men from Kmart. He was 5 years old. The store security caught him and the Police were called. His mother allowed him to be taken to the Police station where he was talk to by the police about stealing. It turned out to be a good lesson for the kid, he is now a Police officer.
Rob, what kind of law do you practice? Just curious.
Growing up a friend of mine was caught shoplifting army men from Kmart. He was 5 years old. The store security caught him and the Police were called. His mother allowed him to be taken to the Police station where he was talk to by the police about stealing. It turned out to be a good lesson for the kid, he is now a Police officer.
Rob, what kind of law do you practice? Just curious.
robwbright
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Okiewan said:
oldguy said:
For the sake of clarification, here's my lengthy response.
First, obviously my profession has its share of ridiculous persons and outcomes - feel free to publish them. I find them interesting (and sometimes tragic) as well, but I'm not offended in the least by the idiocy of others who happen to have passed a bar exam. I recall personally contributing to the list of lawyer jokes on here a month ago.
BTW, Oldguy, my animosity is also directed towards overzealous prosecutors as well - the next time I come across one of those articles, I'll be sure to post it for you so you can make fun of attorneys.
Oldguy, I'm not sure what your point is. Are you personally offended or just afraid that I am reducing the amount of respect for policemen?
Our country is certainly less free than it was 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 years ago. Government in general (and police are part of government) is the ultimate cause of that reduction of freedom - and such has always been the case throughout history. Even God warned the Hebrews about reduction of freedom under government by man in the 8th chapter of First Samuel - but people gravitate towards less freedom rather than more. More freedom requires more personal responsibility.
What would have happened in the above "2 year old" incident in the 50s or 60s? Certainly not a citation, and I suspect any officer who had cited a 2 year old would have been sanctioned for such ridiculous conduct.
Okiewan has it right about me - I don't like the way our government is currently run (and no, I'm not singling out the Bush Admin) and the direction this country is taking. I don't appreciate being lied to constantly by both parties - whether those lies are explicit or "white" lies.
And no, I don't spend a lot of time looking specifically for police articles - actually, I spend essentially zero time looking for "police" articles.
However, several conservative and libertarian news sites which I regularly visit link to these articles.
For example, http://www.worldnetdaily.com - this site has been a staunch supporter of the Iraq War and regularly calls for attacks on Iran. However, they do permit opposing viewpoints and they are very concerned about the direction the country is taking - thus, they link to a lot of legal/law enforcement articles.
Anyway, when an article looks particularly ridiculous to me, I click on the link. With a high speed connection and speed reading, I can cover a LOT of pages in 10 minutes. A VERY SMALL number of articles I view get linked to here.
You seem to think I'm posting every article I find on police misconduct. Nope. They're not hard to find. It happens all the time.
As to the police, having some degree of experience with the police as a result of my profession, I can say that many police in this area (I do not speak for other parts of the U.S.) are well meaning - and a large percentage of them either:
A: Have no idea what is required of them for the prosecutor to obtain a conviction; OR
B: They don't care what is required to obtain a conviction.
My boss, Steven Story has been a prosecutor, defense attorney, and currently, the county judge who handles arraignments for all criminal charges, as well as hearings, trials and sentencings for all misdemeanors. Steve is a lifelong Republican. As prosecutor, he was noted for pressing hard to eradicate the infamous Meigs County marijuana - so much so that he made a LOT of families of drug dealers mad and lost the following election.
In all three capacities he has been amazed at the ridiculous and incompetent tactics of the sheriff's dept and police dept which, in many cases, prevent a conviction.
However, my primary complaint as far as police go is not with the police directly, but rather with local, state and federal governments who attack constitutional rights - and thereby have permitted the police to begin transforming from "protect and serve" to essentially a quasi-military style form of "justice".
If any police officer, prosecutor, judge, congressman, etc . . . does their job well and according to a plain reading of the constitution, then I have the utmost respect for that person. If they add to the plain reading or twist it, then my level of respect reduces proportionately with their degree of twisting.
Thus, while I disagree with the democrats more than the republicans, in many cases I find the Republicans more dangerous because they TALK like conservatives but many of them ACT like liberals. At least with the liberals they tell you they're going to give you crap and then they give it to you. The liberals don't promise more freedom and then stab you in the back.
For example, ". . . the right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED."
How many Republican members of Congress support the 2nd Amendment AS WRITTEN?
I know of ONE. Perhaps there are more, but there sure aren't many.
robwbright
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Thump said:
Our firm (and the firm I clerked for in the past) are general practice.
40% personal injury/tort, 20% criminal defense, 20% domestic, 20% probate/property.
I understand where you're coming from Thump, but it's a slippery slope. If the officer commanded her to slap the child, should she obey him? If the officer commanded her to strip, should she do it?
That kind of thinking is precisely the problem. It's how you get from where we currently are to where Germany ended up in the early 1940s.
I have a 2 year old. Citing a 2 year old for throwing a rock is totally and completely ridiculous - regardless of what the mother does. A just small claims court would require the mother to pay for the damage to the car. Discipline the child and teach it not to throw rocks. It's quite simple. The police should never have been involved at all and mature, reasonable people don't call the police on a 2 year old because their car got scratched.
From what I know of the military, those guys are supposed to disobey illegal orders.
Taking a 5 year old to a police station is also ridiculous. Making him do some chores to earn some money to pay for the items stolen (preferably 2 to 4 times the value of the items) would be a much more effective lesson.
Note that the Bible advocated 4 times restitution for theft, not imprisonment. Perhaps they knew what they were talking about. . .
robwbright
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dales298 said:
Read above - another page linked to it - I didn't even know which city it was from.
Thump
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- Jan 17, 2000
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Having been throught the police academy and married to a lawer I can say that it is not the job of a police officer to know what is required to get a conviction. That is your job. Police officers cite or make arrests when laws have been broken, that is there job and that is why they don't have to go thought law school. It is simple really, if a law is broken, action is taken regardless of age or ethnicity. That is a Police officer's job. The rest is up to you. Sure there are times when an officer will make a mistake and it prevents convictions, same can be said for lawers. I have seen it first hand on both accounts.robwbright said:
- Nov 25, 2003
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Yep you made your post while I was working on mine. That news organization is known for their 'spin' on news. We have two major channels in town and that one seeks statewide accolades. I'm not saying it didn't happen like they reported, but I take their stuff with a grain of salt. More than likely there was more to it than was reported, and that town does have issues.
Dale
Dale
Thump
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Come back to the world of the reality Rob. The officer asked her to do something, it was not a ridiculous request and it was refused.robwbright said:
Correct, the police should have never been called. My guess is they were because of the actions of the mother toward the owner of the car.robwbright said:
From the UCMJ:robwbright said:
890. ART. 90. ASSAULTING OR WILLFULLY DISOBEYING SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER.
Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) strikes his superior commissioned officer or draws or lifts up any weapon or offers any violence against him while he is in the execution of his officer; or
(2) willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer; shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, and if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.
How do you know it would have been more effective? Is that an assumption or have you done a test study because that sounded a little like a factual claim?robwbright said:
In his case he learned that breaking the law gets the Police involved. He was counseled and released to his Mother who further discaplined him. He learned enough from the incident to grow up to be a Police officer. I thnik it was a pretty effctive lesson, don't know how it could have been any better, but then again I have not tested your theory.
oldguy
Always Broken
- Dec 26, 1999
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On your pointsrobwbright said:
1) I don't need to bolster my esteem or profession by searching for belitttleing articals about another
2) no I am not offended or afraid of you reducing the integrity of my profession. First of all for you to offend me I would have to have some level of respect for the person from which the remarks are coming from. I do not hold your opinion in any manner to be an influence on myself. you like to be heard regardless of how little substance your talking contains and therefore I normally tune your posts out- today was a slow post day so I noticed your blatherring.
I hope I haven't offended you
well actually I really don't care :moon:
HajiWasAPunk
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- Aug 5, 2005
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I don't agree with all of his opinions, but I think many of the articles Rob's posts are thought provoking and interesting. In my experience, he has the ability to debate something without it turning nasty or personal and often brings a unique view to to an issue. Furthermore, the posts about the police force are interesting exceptions to a group of otherwise good citizens who do a good job. But these exceptions are interesting (just like when you read articles about CEO's who misuse power, customer service nightmares). Nobody really wants to to read about the status quo. We like to read stories about abnormal (both positive and negative) happenings.
As for the article, I thought the mother should be responsible for the damages her child caused. It seems amazing that this couldn't be resolved without a trip to the station but if it was that out of hand, maybe there was not choice.
The thing that struck was the inability of the 2 women to work this out, that the police had to even be called.
As for the article, I thought the mother should be responsible for the damages her child caused. It seems amazing that this couldn't be resolved without a trip to the station but if it was that out of hand, maybe there was not choice.
The thing that struck was the inability of the 2 women to work this out, that the police had to even be called.
