TX - T.O.R.O. Hare Scrambles??? TCCRA at Muenster?

[yzguy15]

Does anybody know anything about this? I saw a little part about it in the RRDR newsletter, and was curious what in the world this was.

On another note, what happened at the TCCRA race up at Muenster. Apparently the RRDR can't have the race there anymore. What's the deal?

 

[TexXR]

The first race of a "Winter" Hare Scrambles series will be held at Muenster on September 30th sponsered by the RRDR. I believe there will be a total of six races, held three weeks apart. TORO is the "sanctioning" body. The Ft. Worth Trailblazers will also be sponsering one of the races.

As it stands at this time, no, there will not be another TCCRA race at Muenster. But, as you know, time has a way of healing so there's no way to know what the future holds. It's a landowner issue.

 

[yzguy15]

So is the TORO series like a north texas hare scramble circuit? I noticed that most of the TCHSS races are down south, like around Austin and San Antonio.

 

[TexXR]

Yep, all the races will be in the "Northern" part of Texas. Not connected with the TCHSS. Tracks will be more technical than the typical TCCRA course. The weather will be cooler, ideally should have less dust. One of the races, I believe the last one, will be on Brian Storrie's land, where they had the BSGP.

Their format calls for scheduled practice times, which may create a problem. My opinion would be to have no practice.....making it more like a short enduro with no timekeeping. Just show up Sunday morning, ride, and go home. It would also be cool if they had a dead engine GP type start.

Yeah.... thats the ticket! Make them sit blindfolded and backwards on their bike.:confused:

 

[yarbonwick]

First Rocky Ridge now Muenster? I'm beginning to wonder where will the races be held.

 

[yzguy15]

Thanks for the help TexXR. What exactly is the difference between a cross country and a hare scramble anyways?

Yarbo, I know what you mean. Looks like they're gonna have to add on another race at Jacksboro or something.

 

[taraker]

It's getting bad enough that I am seriously considering giving up on TCCRA racing altogether. :(

 

[yarbonwick]

Man I think I know what you mean. I've been contemplating the move into it, but keep getting into horrible conversations about it. Bumping you up to the next class midway into a season and loosing all of your points? No more A or AA classes, which bumped those guys in to never win classes? Political disputes with land owners that are questionable and ultimately leads to no riding there again? What's next? Ask members to ban themselves from those properties? Or let the properties owners do it for you?

 

[TexXR]

YZguy,

By no means am I an authority on the subject, but generally speaking, there's not much difference between a Hare Scramble and a Cross country. Hare Scrambles are usually on a little shorter course and the course is generally more technical.

Taraker,

The TCCRA is a great organization. But I believe the size of the organization has a lot to do with the problems it encounters. Relatively speaking, I 've rode only a few of their events but I've already seen instances where the land has been severely abuse. I will admit that I am extemely bias in the favor of enduro riding and the TSCEC but the difference in how the event land is treated is astonishing. We actually rescheduled an enduro this year due to rain, not because the trail was unrideable, but because of the fear that the camping area would be damaged severely due to the campers and motorhomes. People literally drove 1000 miles to get there and find that the event had been called off. A lot of people complained but most of them drove back three months latter to ride the event. To a rider, though, they all understood what was more important....the fact that the land is more important than the race.

Sorry for rambling, please don't label me as anti-TCCRA. Shoot, because of the TCCRA, I can drive a total of 30 miles and make 4 races. Guess where I live?!?:confused:

 

[Pat Burroughs]

Originally posted by TexXR
But I believe the size of the organization has a lot to do with the problems it encounters.

The proverbial nail has been struck on the proverbial head.

The way many things are done are a bit archaic, owing to the fact that most procedures were put in place when membership was much lower. Couple that with a "that's just the way we've always done it" mentality that prevails and you have...things done in an archaic manner.

The unlimited practice time is a blessing to some and a curse to others. It's a big part of the reason that some enjoy the series. Personally, I don't think the terms "off-road racing" and "practice" should go together, but then I'm sort of a purist. We also have ridiculously stupid live-engine motocross-type starts.:silly:

I'm not that upset that we won't go to Muenster. Not because I don't like the place, but because we don't get to use most of the place when we race there. Last summer's National enduros used some great areas that we never touch. For the most part we race the same loop over and over, forwards and backwards. I was much more impressed with what the RRDR did at Terral, OK a few years back than what they offer us at Muenster. Whether it's because their hands are tied at Muenster by the landowner, I don't know.

As to a new series, that's a great idea that a couple of friends and I have discussed several times. I'm all for it, maybe it'll be good for the monopoly that is the TCCRA in North Texas. The only thing I'm not so excited by is "Tracks will be more technical than the typical TCCRA course". Super-technical terrain is great for trail-riding and enduros, but does not make for good racing IMHO. Sure you need challenging obstacles and difficult sections, but there also needs to be a good bit of open terrain for passing so it doesn't become a game of follow-the-leader or a contest of let's-see-who-can-blow-the-fewest-turns. Now, there seems to be a general feeling in these parts that "open" or "fast" equates with "easy" or "sissified", but that just isn't the case. So long as the open terrain is rough, it takes just as much skill to go fast there as it does to go fast in the more "technical" (read: lower-speed) sections.

Sorry for the tangent. Just my $.02.

 

[Patman North]

Hello everyone. Pat "Patman" Hall here ( of the Patman Racing Patmen )

While I'm usually just a watcher on DRN, It has come to my attention that I may have some good info on this subject of TORO.

So. if ya wanna, you can go here.

www.patmanracing.com try Whoop D News.

Over & Out.

Patman ( north )

 

[yzguy15]

Pat, you should contribute more often. I noticed that that was only your second post in the 8 months you've been a member. I always get a kick out of your posts on Pit-Stop. You should definately hang out here more ofter. BTW, the TORO series sounds like a blast. Thanks for the info.

The other Pat, I think you're right. Of the few races I've attended, it seems to be crowded and the practice sessions appear to be a free for all. Maybe I'm a little biased against the practice sessions since my dad was landed on by a non-TCCRA member at the Bonita race, suffering internal injuries and we haven't been back since. I paid my entrance fee for the TCCRA, and I haven't even got to race yet. He says he'll be ready to go back after the break, I hope so. It's not that I have a problem with the organization itself, or the officers, it's just the way that they do things seems a little unorthodox. They really need to change some rules because "that's the way we've always done it" doesn't really fly when there are triple the members. I'm 15 years old, and I can see it, why can't they? Also, I'm very hesitant to pay $20 for the e-scoring tag. Must we start using them after the break?

About the Muenster land issue: Pat, you're so right once again. They use the same damn 10 mile loop. I mean really, must they use it? There has to be a reason they aren't using more of that place, it's huge, yet they use the same little spot. I mean, it's good trail, but why not use some of the more fun stuff. They could easily have 3 or 4 different 10 mile loops out there without any of them touching each other. They really ought to use more of that trail over there by the Red River. That's some of the best part, in my opinion.

As for the techincal tracks, well that might not be such a bad thing. The technical sections might seperate the men from the boys ;) . No, really though, if by technical they mean as technical as the BSGP, then it shouldn't be too bad. There were a couple of cool little tight spots, followed by rough open spots. That was easily one of the most fun things I have ever been to. Not too tough, and not easy by any means. However I could see that at Muenster things could get a little tighter (well as long as they don't use that same TCCRA trail again).

Sorry for the rambling, sometimes I just get started and don't know when to shut up. :silly:

 

[will pattison]

as a veteran of both the on- and off- track battles in the tccra, i have to confess that i'm pretty excited about the prospect of a new series. both current texas series have their good and bad points, and hopefully the management of the toro series will cultivate the best of both worlds.

 

[yarbonwick]

This is some of the the best conversations we've seen in awhile. Thanks.

I'm not even a member of the TCCRA and I know of the problems associated with it. That says something. I feel it is a good organization but has had it's growing problems for some time now. I believe the reason the same loop is used is probably a decision on both parties involved. Getting that many people through technical situations would be a nightmare (remember BSGP and the hangup parts?). Multiply that twofold. And quite possibly the land owners not wanting to have a vast amount of it's land destroyed.

 

[TexXR]

Right or wrong, something we must never ever forget is the good that the TCCRA has done for the promotion of offroad riding here in North Texas. Had it not been for the interest in riding that the TCCRA has generated I doubt a new organization like TORO could begin, let alone survive, which I think they will.

As to the usual track at Muenster, there is a bit of protectivism on the part of RRDR, and it's understandable. I'm a RRDR and I like some of the "good" trails to stay "good". The RRDR did open up most of the trails at the qualifier last year, but they were being looked at from the national level and were wanting to impress.

I guess you could call it "trail managment".

 

[will pattison]

the rrdr fall classic was the best race of last year, in my opinion, and i hit 30 of them! will there be a 2001 event, texxr?

wp.

 

[yzguy15]

Will, yes there will be another qualifer style race this year.

Tex, the TCCRA has done a lot of good for our sport. It brought many people to racing, and will continue to do so. It's just a good organization, for the most part, and that's why it keeps growing. At some point the membership is bound to fall of, but when? Who knows. Without the TCCRA a series like TORO wouldn't be able to survive, much less thrive, like I think it will.

It's understandable that the RRDR won't open up all the trails for all the races. I mean, you wouldn't want the whole park torn up like that one loop is. When they don't use the best trail out there, it aint cause they don't have it, that's for sure. Me and my dad went out there right after the qualifier last year and there was some rough trail. We stumbled onto what looked like A rider trail (dad said it looked like Mike Richmond's handywork), and it was very hard and stuff I'd never seen before. Sometimes when we ride out there my dad sees new trail for the first time, which is impressive since he's been riding out there since the early 80's. It's definately out there, just depends on what yall want to use.

Tex, I didn't know that you were a member of the RRDR. My dad has been flirting with the idea of rejoining over the past several months. Well, I've been nonchalantly pushing the issue, and Bill Pearson always seems to drop it into the conversation whenever we talk to him. I'm trying to get him to go to the meeting next week. I'd like for us to join, it sounds like fun, marking trail and stuff. Maybe someday.

 

[TexXR]

Will, yes the Fall Classic will again be run like a qualifier. The only difference is that the check in to each test section may be a known control and there will be a trail speed, something slow like 15 mph. That way a rider could still "hour out". Last year a rider could take all day to get from test to test. They still had people in Bill's Woods at 4:00 that afternoon. :eek:

YZguy, I'll be at the next RRDR meeting. The RRDR are a great bunch of guys. In general, the RRDR is slanted a bit toward enduro riding but promote any type of offroad riding. If you are there, I'll be the big guy that kinda looks like Drew Carey.:confused:

Don't laugh.

 

[yzguy15]

Drew Carey eh? :)

Yea, I know they're slanted towards enduros. I like enduros. I have nothing against them and my dad likes them too (he was state overall c champ in 87, sorry just had to throw that in there :p ). But since the TCCRA events are closer, for the most part, we kinda were leaning towards doing that instead. Like I said, I hope he decides that he wants to join again, because I want to. I'm going to lobby hard to get him to go this week, but since we're leaving for vacation on Thursday, it, more than likely, won't happen. Oh well, I'm just going to keep trying.

 

[yzguy15]

Hey taraker, I'm not sure that everybody knows that the TCCRA aint going back to Muenster. I just saw it in the RRDR newsletter that I got. I think that's why some people on pit-stop are going to know what you're talking about.

 

[penguin]

actually the door is still open for the TCCRA to go back to Muenster, there was some serious miscommunication and some hurt feelings but now that everybody has had time to cool off and think about it, there is still some hope left. Stay tuned for more details as they develop :cool:

 

[Patman North]

For those of you interested, I have updated my info page with the latest on the new Texas Off-road Racing Organization.

www.patmanracing.com look in the "Whoop D News" section

Patman the old.:scream:

 

[jdrobins]

Patman,
Thanks for keeping us updated, and Please let us know when sign up begins, I'll try to be one of the 500

Jim

 

[yzguy15]

Patman, are they going to use the same E-Scoring as the TCCRA? If they haven't thought of it, maybe you should mention it. That way we won't have to remount and buy new hardware. Or is this idea even feasable?

 

[Pat Burroughs]

Originally posted by yzguy15
Patman, are they going to use the same E-Scoring as the TCCRA? If they haven't thought of it, maybe you should mention it. That way we won't have to remount and buy new hardware. Or is this idea even feasable?

Electronic scoring is something that has been discussed but likely will not be implemented during the first year of the series. Not saying it won't happen, but not likely.

That said, I don't think that when they do implement it that they'll be using the TCCRA's method. It's been...um...something less than a roaring success. It's taken upwards of five years to implement, and what they did come up with isn't very user-friendly. Who wants to ruin their fender with that monstrosity? Whose bright idea was it to use a module that couldn't be mounted close to............METAL?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?:silly:

They tried to re-invent the wheel when it wasn't necessary and the results have been disastrous.