water pump cover/impeller...does it work? why?

[motometal]

aftermarket water pump cover/impeller...does it work? why?

I was under the impression that we wanted the intake tract, carb, etc. as cool as possible (as long as the fuel can stay vaporized)...

...and the combustion chamber hotter (understanding that preignition will at some point become a problem). Since the carb is insulated, and part of the intake tract is made from rubber and exposed to outside air, I wouldn't think engine operating temp would change the temp or density of the incoming air.

Now things are not so simple with a two stroke, because the mixture is pumped into the crankcase, which warmer than ambient temp. The mixture is then transferred up to the combustion chamber, but on the way it travels thru the cylinder. hmmmmm...

I have found the cooling system on dirt bikes to be very efficient, and more than adequate, only managing to overheat a bike maybe once or twice, and that was on a hot day, first gear, barely moving, stuck in the mud, etc.

So, if you read between the lines, I am doubting the effectiveness of this "performance bolt on" product. Anyone out there with any real proof that this increases horsepower (not "I bolted it on and the bike feels way faster)??

 

[kciH]

These things are made to get that last little extra bit of cooling out of a modded machine, and to look cool and separate you from your cash. If the mfg doesn't even give some idea as to what it will do on this or that bike, why buy it unless you are having a problem with excessive temperature. Of course, if it looks cool........ :D

Why don't you just get some Engine Ice, Rich highly reccomends it :D :D

 

[motometal]

Ok, i'm trying to give this thing the benefit of the doubt here (even though there's no way I will every buy one)

does anyone know how much hp is required to drive the water pump at max rpms? And could this impeller take significantly less power to drive? Since I don't have one, I can't study the measurements and profile vs. the stock one...

when pumping water, you definitely reach a "point of diminishing returns" for transferring heat. At some point, the water leaving the engine isn't much hotter than the water entering the engine, and as the increased turbulence could actually reduce heat transfer or create hot spots in some cases.

 

[kciH]

If the impeller actually pushes more water, it almost certainly takes more horesepower to do it. The part would likely rob you of some unoticable amount of power.

PS-I was j/k about the Engine Ice

 

[marcusgunby]

I think the idea of the design is to stop cavitation.

 

[Jaybird]

kicH,
If the initial desing of the impeller is less than efficient, then it would be possible for a different impeller to produce more flow without an increased need for HP.

 

[EngIceDave]

It's my understanding that the impellers and impeller covers increase the overall volume of coolant.

The manufacturers design cooling systems (and more) for normal use, under normal conditions and in stock condition....I have no idea what "normal" is when it comes to off-road...I don't think they do either.

When you get into head mods, porting, ignition changes, and other mods that increase HP, it also increases engine temps. This is why high temperature is such an issue with some folks.

My real question is....why the nods and winks about Engine Ice? You guys don't like it?

 

[bwalker]

This thread sums it up pretty well. http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51816&highlight=engine+ice+coolant

 

[Jaybird]

Dave,
I happen to think that your product is fine.
I don't use it, but it has a place in our market.

 

[EngIceDave]

Thanks for showing me that thread.

It's amazing how many times I have read ALL of that information on different sites and how so many people who've never used it say it doesn't work...It's actually very funny. They've never tried it, but they're sure it doesn't work.

Without dragging up a thread that's a month old, let's just say that in some areas they're correct and in many they're not. The tests of EG vs. PG they quote is in distilled water, not Di water. It also doesn't consider some additives that are in Engine Ice...so those tests they're quoting are inaccurate.

It's amazing to me how we can get letter after letter and phone call after phone call from people who've tried it and say it works. We've had test results and positive feedback from top motorcycle road race teams and riders, top motorcycle off-road teams and riders, NASCAR teams, ASA auto race teams, Hooters Pro Cup auto race teams and ARCA auto race teams all tell us how well it works....and you know what? We don't pay ANY OF THEM to use it...NONE...They use it because it works...but wait! It doesn't work, right? These folks are using it and saying it works just for the heck of it.

Somehow, we've been able to brainwash and convince all of these people that it works...

Darn, I am good.

 

[bwalker]

Jaybird, The problem lies in the marketing of the product not in the product itself. If EI was not makeing some wild unproven claims I dont think any body would have a problem.

 

[motometal]

my original intent was to start a (hopefully) highly technical discussion regarding the thermodynamics and the like related to aftermarket water pump covers/impellers. My intent was not to start a post bashing a product, but rather to learn more about why it might, or might not, work. Since my thread was moved from the "Advanced Technology and Engineering" forum, this probably won't happen so...

I guess what I DIDN'T say in my original post was that even if there is a need for additional coolant flow UNDER CERTAIN CERCUMSTANCES ON CERTAIN BIKES, i'm having trouble with the marketing practice of claiming that it adds horsepower to whatever bike may happen to sit in your garage.

Reminds me a bit of the sales tactics used to sell cryogenic treatment...

 

[EngIceDave]

What "wild" and unproven claims?

 

[EngIceDave]

Cooling products, be it impellers, impeller cover or even the coolants themselves CANNOT increase horsepower.

 

[bwalker]

What "wild" and unproven claims?

Mainley that it lowers temps when In all likelyhood it doesnt. Although we do not know as I havent seen any astm test done on it.

 

[EngIceDave]

EVERY product discussed on this board has undergone ASTM laboratory testing?

WOW!

I never knew that....Can I get the ASTM test on the FMF Fatty for an 02 RM125?

If your sponsors selling the product (which makes them money) and your sponsors haveing good enough results to put it into every bike the make for 2003 (AF500) isn't good enough...oh well.

If the test done by an engineer from a well respected race team isn't enough...sorry.

If American Suzuki telling all of their team riders to use it isn't enough...bummer.

If Yamaha Motor Corporation testing it and allowing Yamaha of Troy to run it in the YZ250F during it's debut year...which you and I both know they'd never risk it if it didn't work...if that doesn't help and isn't enough....gee whiz.

I give up..........

 

[motometal]

I think we are more interested in HOW it works and WHY it works than how many joe shmoes are using it...many of those guys could win on a 1973 Heald Kit Trike with a 5 HP Tecumseh

 

[bwalker]

The mobil one sticker is on the penski open wheel cars. Does that mean they are using mobil? Just because you claim high level teams are using it doesnt mean it works. SHOW US COMPARITVE TEST RESULTS AND PUT THIS THREAD TO REST. If you really believe in your product you will not have a problem doing this and to the contrary it will be benificial to you..

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by EngIceDave
I give up..........

Once again. SHOW US SOME PROOF.

With all due respect to your "good word", you do have a vested interest in only telling us GOOD stuff about your product.

Show us some independent testing comparing your product to the competition and if your product does what you say then there is little doubt you'll have a captive audience here and everywhere else on the internet, and you'll sell more product then you can make.
You clearly spend an ENORMOUS amount of money on advertising and endorsement contracts. Money spent on "proving up" would be a pittance compared to that. Just think of the thrill you'll get from proving all of the naysayers wrong. You know you'd love to jam it down my throat and the collective throats of people like me.

You know what they say "One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions".
Lets modify that to say :
"One VALID test is worth a thousand expert opinions".

The balls in your court Dave.

 

[EngIceDave]

Watch...

It'll be the wrong lab
The wrong guy
the wrong coast
wrong altitude
wrong engine

Should I just have you TELL me, who, what, where and when...because it's clear that's the only way you'll be happy.

BTW and for the record....WE PAY NO ENDORSEMENT MONEY, not even with James Stewart...The only time we ever have is with our sponsorship of Yamaha of Troy, and YES, they do actually use it...go to a national and you can personally see it on the toolbox and watch them put it in...and Just so you know, every item on that team (as well as every other team) is the same way....FMF pays, THOR pays, DSP pays, BELL pays...they all pay. That's they way big-time racing is today. That's how they finance the team. However, they use the products of their sponsors and they do use Engine Ice.

I will get a lab test...I will do some tests (Even though you'll tell me they're bad or wrong or something) ...then you'll owe me an apology.

We've done tests, just not tests acceptable to you.

 

[motometal]

for starters, I would recommend testing the cooling ability of the fluid, not just the operating temperature of the fluid. There is a test called a "hot wire" test used with quenchants that might be of use...the current flow thru a hot wire is meaured, and since the resistance of the wire changes with temperature, this relates to the cooling ability of the fluid.

Or, a dyno test with a thermocouple mounted in a hollow bolt in the cylinder...

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by EngIceDave
I will get a lab test...I will do some tests (Even though you'll tell me they're bad or wrong or something) ...then you'll owe me an apology.

We've done tests, just not tests acceptable to you.

Bring us something peer reviewed that can be published as a technical paper with an established organization like the SAE and I'll be more than happy to apologize to you here and anywhere else you would like.

Otherwise you are correct, I'll pick it apart. I've spent too much of my life as a test engineer to feel comfy when smoke is getting blown up my butt. :D

 

[EngIceDave]

So what.... see you in a year?

Obvious from that post, it's never going to make you happy and as I sit and type this...I realize that you NEVER ask any of this info from Maxima, Bel-Ray, Motul, Spectro or any other company.

NEVER, EVER, NEVER.

YOU NEVER ASK THIS INFO FROM ANY COMPANY EVER.

But, because I wish to defend my product, you want to get righteous and DEMAND an indy lab test, done in a peer review and submitted to SAE…You’re nuts

PLEASE...You show me any other company that’s done it at your behest and I’ll happily set aside the expenses to do it.

You’re full of yourself.

Having an Independent lab do a test and furnish the results is one thing, but now you’re out in left field.

I’ll do an independent lab test, and if that doesn’t satisfy you…too bad

This is why I said at the beginning, it doesn’t matter…nothing will satisfy you…ever.

You’ve made up your mind.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by EngIceDave
So what.... see you in a year?

Obvious from that post, it's never going to make you happy and as I sit and type this...I realize that you NEVER ask any of this info from Maxima, Bel-Ray, Motul, Spectro or any other company.

NEVER, EVER, NEVER.

YOU NEVER ASK THIS INFO FROM ANY COMPANY EVER.

None of those companies come out here and post press releases and SPAM our forums with "but this guy said data", so their claims truthful or not really aren't our concern. :silly:

Originally posted by EngIceDave
PLEASE...You show me any other company that’s done it at your behest and I’ll happily set aside the expenses to do it.

Then save your money Dave. If you are only willing to submit your product to test in an effort to shut me up, then it's a waste.

Originally posted by EngIceDave

I’ll do an independent lab test, and if that doesn’t satisfy you…too bad

This is why I said at the beginning, it doesn’t matter…nothing will satisfy you…ever.

You’ve made up your mind.

Show us some unbiased technical data and you'd be surprised how easy we are to please. The only thing my mind is made up about is your unwillingness to provide any sort of useful data and your discomfort when the subject is raised.

You clearly don't have to publish an SAE paper to prove the veracity of your claims but the standards they use for submission are a useful guideline in conducting a valid test. I would think a well executed test of your product versus the competion would prove to be a powerful marketing tool. Maybe I just don't have a clear picture of your core demographic.

FYI - We have held other companies who have come here making outrageous claims for their products to the same technical standards as you. AFT carbs comes immediately to mind. They declined to provide technical data to back up their claims and were read the riot act for posting press releases when asked legitimate technical questions about their product. They are welcome here anytime if they want to participate in a useful technical discussion, as opposed to a spamfest. The same goes for any company.
You might want to stop in more often so you have a better idea what goes on around here. There are some remarkably intelligent members here who are quick to warm up to companies that provide useful information. The downside is that most are pretty jaded when it comes to claims without substantiation.

I'll make a deal with you. You provide some USEFUL test data and post it here and I won't comment one way or the other. We can leave it up the the DRN members to make their own call about your product based on the data you provide. We can start a new thread for it on the condition that it doesn't deteriorate into a "but these guys use the product" thread. Just test data and a discussion between you and the members on the test and the results.
Does that work for you?

 

[EngIceDave]

I have no discomfort in supplying test data. I just don't have the type of test data that YOU WANT. We've done tons of testing in various bikes and engines...On-road, off-road, auto...but none of them meets your specific criteria.

We have always relied on the feedback of riders, teams and mechanics as well as team engineers to relay their results and to see if they meet our data. You know as well as I do that what works in the lab doesn't always translate to the track in the same manner...Just like a dyno, it looks good on paper, but once on the track it doesn't work too well.

As stated above, we've done plenty of testing and received a great deal of feedback from reputable companies, but because it isn't an independent laboratory meet the standards you set forth, it is unacceptable.