Another take on end of Red 2 Strokes

[2strokerfun]

As already pointed out, H is primarily 4 stroke company and didn't market 2 stroke until 73 with first generation Elsinores. I still have a '76 250 and it still runs great. But also pointed out is the expensive/extensive repair and maintenance cost of modern 4-stroke dirt bikes compared to relatively simple 2-strokes.

One thing to keep in mind is that dealers (car, motorcycle, tractor) make WAAAAYYYY more money on parts and repairs than they do on sales. I saw a story about 9 months ago on the total number of sales of new dirt bikes in the U.S. and was amazed at the low total number. I can't find the article now, but sales number were a lot lower than I imagined. So low as to make one wonder how they could be in production and distribution.

I think the decision is purely profit driven. 1) Cut manufacturing costs by eliminating a line. 2) Get an increase in sales of brand-loyal consumers buying 4-strokes with 3) slight increase of profit per sale due to economies of scale, and 4) increase profitability of dealer and manufacturer by large increase of parts and service repairs.

Just my 2 cents. I doubt Honda gives a damn about the United States air quality.

 

[Jas_RM250]

I hear ya on that. I'd buy that as fact. Anything a corporation will do, will be geared towards profit...everything else is just a cherry on top....By 4-strokes being slightly better for air quality is just a convenient side effect...These side effects are usually what big corporations will say is their "motive" so as to blind the consumer of the whole profit thing that's the true motive behind 'the change' , for Honda's case, going 4-stroke only starting in '08 for profit... That whole thing about profitting more from parts/service is spot on.

The beauty of the 2-stroke is that it's the root of MX...ppl working on their own bikes, McGyvering bikes to work (in the olden days) or just like I did with my '77 YZ250 for 6 years...THAT's dirtbiking....4-strokes are great, but man....not all of us can afford to pay for the maintenance...Bike sales won't get much huger than the 2-strokes are.....just my opinion.....

Perhaps there will be a wave of weekend warriors and amateur racers that will rush to get 2-strokes and create a demand?

 

[Anssi]

The beauty of the 2-stroke is that it's the root of MX.

BSA?

 

[Okiewan]

The beauty of the 2-stroke is that it's the root of MX

That's not actually correct.

BSA, Monark, Triumph, etc. 4-strokes were first.

 

[2strokerfun]

I rode behind my son in law this weekend, who was on a brand new 90cc pitbike. I couldn't ever hear my engine over that cannon of a muffler on that little bitty bike. Geez are some of those four strokes loud.
2 strokes were the root of my MX, judging from an egocentric viewpoint. Like many others, I may be looking at KTM in the future.

 

[Micahdawg]

The beauty of the 2-stroke is that it's the root of MX...ppl working on their own bikes, McGyvering bikes to work (in the olden days) or just like I did with my '77 YZ250 for 6 years...THAT's dirtbiking....

And the problem for me is that I will continue to be one of "those guys" who work on their own bike. I'm not intimidated by anything I've seen on the new breed of thumpers, but at the same time.....it sure looks like a lot bigger PITA than wrenching on my trusty 2 stroke.

So for me, it's not an issue of working on my bike vs. taking it to the dealer. I just don't want to deal with degreeing cams, setting timing, adjusting/replacing valves, etc...

Micah

 

[Ol'89r]

The beauty of the 2-stroke is that it's the root of MX...ppl working on their own bikes, McGyvering bikes to work (in the olden days) or just like I did with my '77 YZ250 for 6 years...THAT's dirtbiking....QUOTE]

That may be true if you were born in the 80's.

But, in the real olden days it was BSA, Triumph, AJS, Matchless and many more like Okie said, "4-strokes were first."

The modern day 4-strokes are not that hard to work on. They have a few more moving parts and many are intimidated by this. Just like many were intimidated by setting up a power valve when 2-strokes first came out with them.

I really have to laugh at new riders when they complain about the new 4-strokes. When I first started racing, you could not go into your local dealer and by a race bike. You had to buy a street bike and convert it over to a race bike. You had to remove the street equipment, cut and grind all the lugs and extra mounts from the frame, remove the fenders and replace with an aluminum or Preston Petty fender. Tie all of the spokes together to keep from caving in your wheels, etc, etc,etc.

In the engine department you had to completely disassemble the engine, port the head, find or make high compression pistons, balance the cranks and change and degree the camshafts. On most engines you had to split the engine cases inorder to remove and replace the cams. Many of us welded up and reground our own cams and welded our pistons for higher compression. Most of us learned to do these things ourselves because if you couldn't build your own engine you had to take it to one of the few engine builders that were available at that time. And they were very expensive. You also still had to adjust your valves and re-check your ignition timing often.

If you were a serious racer, you had to tear your engine down after every 2-4 races and replace things like primary chains, rings, pistons, cranks, bearings, valves, guides, etc, etc, etc. All new parts had to be tested for flaws. Everything had to be either x-rayed, magnifluxed or Zyglowed since many new parts came with flaws. All of these new parts had to be hand-fit. Nothing really fit so you had to hone, ream, grind, machine and hand-fit every part.

When the 2-stroke came along, they were easy to work on and many forgot or never had to learn what we did inorder to keep our 4-strokes running. Over the years the things we had to go through were forgotten.

Now we can go into our local dealer and buy a state-of-the-art racer. Literally a one cylinder F-1 engine in a lightweight racing frame. Manufactured from aircraft aluminum, magnesium, titanium and chrome moly, materials once only available to the elite racing teams. And everybody complains.

When I think about what we had to go through I find it hard to sympathize with people that complain about having to adjust their valves and keep up with the maintainance of the modern day 4-stroke. Just get over it, learn how to do it or find an easier sport.

You guys really don't know how good you have it. :coocoo:

Just my $ .02 Carry on. :cool:

Ol'89r

 

[Chili]

When I think about what we had to go through I find it hard to sympathize with people that complain about having to adjust their valves and keep up with the maintainance of the modern day 4-stroke.

blah blah blah blah blah....You might have had to tap your notes into stone with a chisel also Ol'89r, it doesn't mean I'll be any less happy when my pen runs out of ink and I don't have a spare :laugh:

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Nicely said Terry :cool:

 

[Okiewan]

I'd like to see some numbers, would be interesting. Current cost to race vs income with inflation adjustments ... does it really cost more now? I have no idea, but I suspect it's not that much different than in decades past. MX has always been an expensive sport. Yes, a MX'er in the early/mid 70's was 7-800. but nice cars were also 8,000.

 

[Ol'89r]

I'd like to see some numbers, would be interesting. Current cost to race vs income with inflation adjustments ... does it really cost more now? I have no idea, but I suspect it's not that much different than in decades past. QUOTE]

Okie.

It wasn't so much the costs but the time involved. Almost everything had to be hand made. Take a piston for example. A new piston was somewhere around $ 18- 20 bucks. But, when you got a new piston you had to weld up the dome for more compression and machine it down so the valves cleared. You had to fit and clay the piston which required assembling the engine to check everything and then taking it back apart again. Sometimes several times. Wrist pins didn't fit properly and had to be fitted to the piston. Rings had to be fit and lapped into the ring lands and then gapped. It took many, many hours just to change one piston. :ohmy:

At first racing cams were not available. We had to weld up the lobes with hardfacing and grind them down sometimes by hand. Even when racing cams became available you had to degree them in because no two sets of cams were the same even from the same camgrinder.

From all the whining I hear today, :yell: (No offence Chili. ;) ) I don't see many people that would put in the time to go through what we had to do inorder to keep our racers running.

I know parts were cheap but if I remember correctly I was only making about $ 125.00 per week back then and a $ 20.00 piston took a pretty big chunk out of that. Most of us had to keep full-time jobs to afford to go racing.

Thanks for the comment Rich. I know that you are aware of what I'm talking about. :nod:

Talk amongst yourselves.

Ol'89r

 

[James]

It took many, many hours just to change one piston. :ohmy:

From all the whining I hear today, :yell: (No offence Chili. ;) ) I don't see many people that would put in the time to go through what we had to do inorder to keep our racers running.

Most of us had to keep full-time jobs to afford to go racing.

Ol'89r

Excuse my liberal use of selective quoting.

If I understand correclty, we have come full circle back to the roots of MX? From the hard to maintain, time consuming, costly 4 strokes, to the early less than reliable 2 strokes, through to the development of the ultra reliable and easily mainatained 2 strokes, back to the labor intensive, costly, and somewhat unreliable 4 stroke.

So in essence, you had it worse in the 60s, so we should be thankful now that we don't have it quite as good as we did in the early 2000s? I am trying hard to find the blessings to count on this one.

I'd say the inflation adjusted cost has risen considerably from 2000 to 2007.

 

[Okiewan]

We can talk about it til the cows come home ...

 

[James]

I figure that translates into "I disagree"...but with what part?

Inflation?

2000 250 motocross bikes were $4800 MSRP? 2007 CRF450 MSRP $6999

40% -45% in 7 years...straight average of roughly 6% per year? What has inflation averaged? 1-2%

 

[Chili]

From all the whining I hear today, :yell: (No offence Chili. ;) ) I don't see many people that would put in the time to go through what we had to do inorder to keep our racers running.

No offence taken at all Terry, I can say flat out I could not afford the time to keep a racer running if that were the case. I'm too busy working two jobs and running a side business to try to pay for how good we have it now.

 

[gwcrim]

Back when *I* started racing we had to chip our wheels out of stone. The suspension was made of bent sticks and LOOK OUT when they broke. Can you say splinters in a painful area? And engines? Huh... there was a tank of water that flowed onto a paddle wheel. There was only one valve and it was operated by baler twine. We always raced in mud as a result. But then that played well for the heavy stone wheels.

;)

 

[Aftermath]

Whilst you mill your piston, or wait for new valves, I'll be riding. Riding is what it's all about. We look after and maintain our bikes, but for what - to ride. I prefer the easier and cheaper route.

 

[Micahdawg]

From all the whining I hear today, (No offence Chili. ) I don't see many people that would put in the time to go through what we had to do inorder to keep our racers running.

I think keeping your racers running and doing what it takes to win are a little different. For instance, I don't know that learning to weld your cam lobes and hand massage the profiles were necessary to just keeping the thing running.

While the times & bikes have changed, if you want a significant advantage over everyone else who buys their FI engine/aluminum frame shod MX bikes...don't you still have to learn highly technical/experimental modifications OR pay really expensive shops to do so?

Micah

 

[CRazy250]

2 strokes will be gone for awile and in a few years people will realize that 2 strokes are so easy and user friendly and make efficent power for displacment,were as 4t's have valves and twice the displacement for power......they will come back

 

[2-Strokes 4-ever]

Take fannypak off.........remove spark plug.........install new.......(I've fouled ONE in last 4 years).........3 minutes. Puts we WAY down the trail when comparing to a plug change in my 4stroke buddy's bikes. Kind of a bottom line, basic, importance to me. If I was still racing, that alone would cost me a trophy on a 4stroke.........kinda messes up a $200 day in entry fees, bike wear & tear, transportation cost, etc. My friends defence........."yea, but you make smoke" Yes, I do.

 

[ecy063]

Skilled technians in the motorcycle repair industry will be gaining some well deserved job security as repairmen have in the automotive fields with advancements in technolegy. Who knows I might even change from cars to bikes. That would be a blessing.

 

[2strokerfun]

I enjoy working on bikes. I think making a living at it would make me HATE working on bikes.

 

[hellbertos]

I know I am late weighing in on this one... interesting responses all the way around... the one thing I can't get past on all this is: If the AMA didn't give 4Ts such a huge displacement advantage, would the manufacturers have abandoned them so quickly?? Would they have worked on Di for 2Ts or other technology to clean them up??

Personally, I think the new 4T bikes are pretty nice, and I'm not intimidated to work on them (due to my time spent wrenching on streetbikes over the years), but I prefer to ride 2Ts. I like the feel of the 2Ts and it plain seems more fun to me is all. I continue to hope for R+D investment in tech to clean up 2Ts so I can ride what I want, not what the AMA and manufacturers force me to ride.

 

[IndyMX]

Anything a corporation will do, will be geared towards profit...

You hear and read this comment alot lately, and when I hear it, it is generally in the context of "that evil corporation trying to make a profit".

Of course profit is the main priority of a business, what else are they in business for?

No business exists for the purpose of doing anything except for generating profit for the owners and shareholders. If they happen to turn out a product that people want to buy in the process, great!!

In Honda's case, I think that they saw the 2 stroke market dwindle to a point that they couldn't justify making them any more. Sure there are those of us that will always ride a smoker, but that's not enough incentive for big red to keep making them.

If there is enough demand for something in the free market, there will be someone willing to produce it. Period. At the point that no one wants to buy a particular product anylonger, then it will disappear.

Ford didn't quit building the Edsel cause they felt like it, no one wanted to buy them.

We may not like Honda's decision, but until one of us owns Honda, there isn't alot we can do about it.

 

[Micahdawg]

Honda might have thought no one wanted them. I hope not, but if so, that's not a good way to treat those who have supported Honda two strokes over the past 25 years. A more tactful way would have been to at least "phase" the line out, but damn, this is a pretty swift chop.

And it is comforting to see that other big manufactures think people still want them. With yamaha's response (via press release) and KTM's response (via the new 144 cc) it has proven that the market is still here. It may not be kicking very high or very hard, but still kickin.

And as one of the many 2 stroke fans, it's left a poor taste in my mouth from Honda, and put Yamaha and especially KTM in a different light.

Micah