Cobra, KTM or LEM

[JJmxr]

My 6yo is quickly growing out of his PW50 and will need a new bike soon. I would appreciate any feed back on reliability, parts cost and availibility, and performance anyone has on the Cobra, Ktm, or LEM race bikes. My 16yo started on an 80 so I don't know much about the smaller bikes. I do know the Cobras are fast as I have seen many win races, but I have also seen more than a few break down on the track. There are always those little KTM's out there doing good, and I am told the LEM is a good bike, but I have not seen too many. No CRF50 though as I just say no to 4 smokes

 

[Ol'89r]

I would appreciate any feed back on reliability, parts cost and availibility, and performance anyone has on the Cobra, Ktm, or LEM race bikes.

JJ.

My grandson rode all of those at one time in the 50 class. We had the best luck with the KTM's. The Cobra's are fast but, require a lot of maintainance. They have upgraded them since he rode in the 50 class and I don't have current experience with the new Cobra's. The LEM's are a good beginner bike and are fairly inexpensive but, not up to the rigors of serious racing.

The KTM was the only bike that he couldn't break in half and the engines lasted much longer between teardowns. Especially the cranks.

Our other grandson just turned one. I have a funny feeling we will be doing the 50 class again. :yikes: :bang: :bang:

Just my $ .02

 

[JJmxr]

Thanks 89, I was thinking along the same line. I have found quite a few used Cobra's for sale, and all included spare parts.

 

[Rcannon]

I have worked on several of the Lems. The bikes are high quality. We had major clutch issues until we switched to a Dominator clutch.

There is a gentleman who posts here, Jaseal, who deals in Cobra's. If I were in the market for one, I woudl call him. He knows more about these little bikes than anyone I have talked to.

 

[Jasle]

feel free to gimme a call. there are two great sources for info. www.cobratalk.com www.ktmtalk.com www.swsupermini.com

My kids rode ktm's first...then we switched to Cobra and I was so impressed I bought a dealership. Some quick tidbits. Cobra CM. Every Loretta Lynn championship since the bike was released in 1997. Cobra King. Only lost one Loretta Lynns title since its inception 1994. There was a different winner every year mind you...Its not one of those things where the same rider was winning every year.

You can make the KTM's run with the cobra's with some aftermarket parts. Out of the box the two don't compare. In the KTM you will find many things break, Key items being, Frame, swingarm bolt, clutch baskets, primary gear and woodruff keys. These have been perenial problems KTM just refuses to do anythign about them. Same frame issues in the ktm65 too BTW. For the KTM I can help you with all the things it takes to make them run. KTM parts can be hard to find if you don't know where to look.

For the cobra...Well you order one take it out of the box and thats about it. Stators tend to die if you over heat them. Fork seals did go often...but Cobra took care of the design issue on the fork seals and have made the retrofit avail for the older bikes. Well, I'd hope I can help you out with Cobra parts but there has not realy been any issue getting parts and Cobra has by far the best national level parts support. They are at all the major races and if they are not one of the dealers most likely is. Also the owners are members of this site too.

LEM. Well they use the same basic motor as the Entry level Cobra PW3. Its a morini S6C. Pretty darn good motor. MAkes good top end power but hardly any bottom end power in the LEM configuration. They adressed the clutch issues.
Here is my personal list of which bikes I'd buy in order of preference.
1. Cobra 2. LEM 3. KTM 4. Polini 5. Conti

Not to bag on 89 but All 50's require maintenance. I would imagine that buy the time he got off Cobra's and on KTM's he had the deal figured out...thus his KTM's ran better because now a few years in to it he was in tune with 50 maintenance...pun intended. I have found most of my customers that cannot get their Cobra's to run really had maintenance issues. The main problem was the head mechaninc previous to me. Once you figure out the nuiances of the Cobra you are set. My son had 1 mechanical DNF last year and we race about 40+ weekends a year. Do yourself a favor and check out the web sites I mentioned. You will notice a HUGE pattern of complaints on the KTM site. And some on the Cobra site. you will also notice Cobra big wigs also post on the cobratalk site and address the problems. Something not many compainies can boast.
And just so you understand the demographics and why the Cobra's are coming with extra parts. KTM sells about 3000 KTM 50's a year in the US. barely 10% of those make it to the race track. Cobra sells a fraction of that but face it they are bought to race only. These are not your desert putt putt bikes. Racers buy parts because they understand the game. You bring spare parts to the track as insurance. Once your off the bike you no longer need the insurance so you might as well pass them on to help the next guy. I am currently selling a bike that we raced. It is NOT a cobra. I have several spare parts for it. Because its a race bike and stuff happens and you need to be prepared for it or else you blew your money on the day.

 

[Ol'89r]

Not to bag on 89 but All 50's require maintenance. I would imagine that buy the time he got off Cobra's and on KTM's he had the deal figured out...thus his KTM's ran better because now a few years in to it he was in tune with 50 maintenance...pun intended. I have found most of my customers that cannot get their Cobra's to run really had maintenance issues. .

Actually Jasle, I had the deal figured out long before we ever started racing 50's. It was about six years ago that we raced the 50 class. It wasn't that the KTM's ran better it was the fact that they were able to finish a race with out quitting or breaking. The Cobras (as you pointed out), had a problem with the stator. Sound's like, (as you pointed out), they still have a problem with the stator. This is unexceptable. When we called Bud at Cobra he said the stators were susceptible to heat and we should remove the side cover after EVERY RACE and spray it with WD40 to cool it down. He also suggested that we buy a few extra stators to have on hand when the stator fails. :coocoo: The fork seals were a issue and other than the Cobras being faster than the other brands, the build quality was not that impressive. Remember, this was about 6 years ago.

We did Lorreta's, Ponca, Vegas and all of the So Cal stuff. The bike was ridden at least 3 times a week and it became very expensive to keep it running. The main thing was not knowing if it would finish a race. Driving all the way back to Lorreta's only to have the bike die during a race while in a qualifing position was not exceptable. The price of the stator was pretty insignificant compared to the price of running the qualifiers and the trip to Tennessee only to have the bike fail.

The KX had problems with breaking frames. I had to gusset the front down tubes and the engine cradle with 4130 to keep the frames from braking. The engine mounts also broke. The big end bearings would not last. We had to set them up with maximum amount of side clearance to get them to live more than a few races. The suspension was not very tunable and as you probably know, in the stock class you cant change anything.

The LEM's were even worse in the frame department. They used mild steel frames and had horrible suspension. It is my understanding that they have improved them considerably since then. I hope so.

The KTM's worked out very well. He never broke a frame and the engines outlasted anything else that we had used by far. The suspension was much better and was adjustable in the dampening department. And, we didn't have to hold our breath at every event for fear the bike would quit. And of course in order to win, first you must finish. Even though the Cobra's were a little faster, he did better on the KTM's because the suspension was better.

I do know a little about maintainance. I have been working on race bikes since the mid 60's in a professional capacity including building and tuning race bikes at the GNC level for several former and current, (at the time), GNC Champions. It was not a maintainance issue, it was a quality issue.

Say hi to Bud for me. ;)

 

[JJmxr]

My biggest concern is the cost to keep running. I have never believed that the bike is the major factor in a sucessful rider, so I don't believe the fastest bike at this level is so important. I want his time on 50's to be about having fun, and building solid riding skills. I don't want to worry too much about winning until 65's. I am not worried about doing the maintenance as I actually enjoy it, I just don't want to break the bank on, or worry about parts. At this point I am not leaning one way or another I am just trying to get good feedback. BTW guys, is the mini class as brutal to deal with as they say?

 

[theroyz71]

It's probably brutal on the national level but not where we race. If I had the money I'd buy a new Cobra CM50 tomorrow. The bike is awesome. Yes, Cobra has had some problems just as KTM, LEM, Polini, and every other make.

Log on to Cobra Talk and KTM Talk and see which bikes have more problems.

 

[phirechick]

Same old Jasle report :bang:

 

[nephron]

JJmxr--you won't be able to get away from the expense of running any of these bikes. They break...a lot, by comparison.

One thing to consider about the KTM: The clutch drum breaks, and quite often. I'd say you'd have to buy 3 to 5 of these at 130 bucks a piece to make it through a season, and I'm not joking. Why not modify it? Because the AMA won't allow it. You've got to run stock parts. Conundrum, eh? We just broke one yesterday. ;) That having been said, we have both an LEMR2 and a KTM Pro Sr, and I like the KTM by far. He's not racing, so it's not that bigga deal.

 

[Sean Hilbert]

I haven’t posted on here in a while since things have been so busy (I used to enjoy hammering ideas back and forth in the Advanced Tech forum), but it appears that there is some ‘old’ information floating around, so it’s time to chime in.

Since purchasing Cobra Motorcycles from Bud Maimone nearly a year and a half ago, there has been a very large emphasis on improving product quality. In that time span, the Cobra King 50 has enjoyed nearly 200 updates (over the two model years) that have addressed performance, durability, serviceability, and most importantly quality. During that period, the company has invested heavily in test equipment including an engine durability dyno that has logged thousands of hours. I will put our engines up against any other 50cc power plant in the world from both a quality and performance perspective. Specific areas such as crank durability and ignition life have each been addressed with improved designs and manufacturing techniques.

For the gentleman that said “it’s the rider, not the bike,” I urge you to go to some of the online forums that Jasle recommended and look for the threads where folks discuss their switch from KTM to Cobra this year (many have made the switch)…You’ll be surprised at how many speak of the enhanced confidence their son or daughter has on their Cobra – Much of that confidence inspired by a chassis and suspension that is light years ahead of the competition.

I’ll also urge you to get a copy of the June issue of Amateur MX magazine. In that issue is a shootout of the 2005 50cc motocrossers. The Cobra King 50 came out the winner, but most important was the rider survey…Every single test rider, no matter which bike they had in their garage at home, voted the King 50 the best bike. At the end of a very difficult eight hour day of constant riding, the King was the only bike left standing as all the kids were jockeying to get another few laps in.

If anyone has any specific questions, please don’t hesitate to speak with one of our dealers, speak with Cobra directly, or head to one of the forums mentioned earlier. Feel free to use this forum as well…If I see a question here, I’ll try to post a timely answer.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Thanks for the update Sean. I can't wait to see what you and Phil have up your sleeve for the future. ;)

 

[Ol'89r]

it appears that there is some ‘old’ information floating around, so it’s time to chime in.

Since purchasing Cobra Motorcycles from Bud Maimone nearly a year and a half ago, there has been a very large emphasis on improving product quality. In that time span, the Cobra King 50 has enjoyed nearly 200 updates (over the two model years) that have addressed performance, durability, serviceability, and most importantly quality.

Specific areas such as crank durability and ignition life have each been addressed with improved designs and manufacturing techniques.

You’ll be surprised at how many speak of the enhanced confidence their son or daughter has on their Cobra – Much of that confidence inspired by a chassis and suspension that is light years ahead of the competition.

QUOTE]

Thanks for clearing that up Sean.

As I mentioned, it was 5-6 years ago that we ran the Cobras. At that time they did have problems but, it appears these problems have been dealt with. I was not baggin' on any particluar brand, only pointing out our own experiences at the time.

Our new grandson is already running around the house twisting his throttle hand and making motorcycle noises. :yikes: We will probably be looking at the Cobras again. ;)

Ol'89r

 

[nikki]

If Red and I had a little one, we both decided he/she would be on a KTM 50.

About 4-6 years ago, Cobra's filled the gates at the top 50 races (like Loretta Lynns), but since then KTM has really closed the gap in performance. Plus we know many Cobra dads who were up all night at races changing clutches or going nuts trying to get parts during the week. You don't see near as many Cobras out there any more.

One of our good friends has a kid on a LEM's 50 Junior right now and they have been having clutch problems with it. I think the bike finally puked out last weekend when the track was a little muddy. Then there is another local kid who is on a LEM Senior, and he wins a bunch of races, but also has a handful of bike DNF's and his dad is alywas wrenching at the track. In fact, in the most recent Cycle USA (Midwest race paper) I think there is a picture of his LEM snapped into two pieces after the kid landed a big jump. :yikes:


So yeah - we'd go with the KTM. Good performance, good track record/durability, and decent parts availiabilty. Plus they look cool - just like mini big bikes.

 

[nephron]

Nikki--the new LEM has a revised 3 shoe clutch, I believe. This brings it to the level of the KTM (either Sr or Jr) as far as the clutch is concerned (our 02 LEMR2 clutch is vomitous, to say the least). But again, I'm telling you--the way things stand right now, the stock KTM drum is not up to the challenge if you want him crossing the line. And if the AMA finds out you've been welding bungs, they'll kick your ass. It'd be nice if all these bikes could run a dominator clutch. It's not necessary, but one hell of a lot easier to deal with....no headache. Sounds like Sean has been doing a lot with the Cobras. If I do this again with my daughter (already trying to kick my 500 over and she's 3), I'm going Cobra.

 

[theroyz71]

Nikki,
I sorry but I have to diagree with you. Cobras are gaining in popularity. They dominate the national level races. The KTM may be close in performance in the Sr class, assuming the clutch and frame hold together but in the Jr class, the CM50 is a far superior bike. Then there's the Cobra customer service.

My son races an 01 Polini X-1. It's a solid bike that hasn't given us any problems. I just wish it wasn't quite so heavy.

 

[Jasle]

Nikki,
I sorry but I have to diagree with you. Cobras are gaining in popularity. They dominate the national level races. The KTM may be close in performance in the Sr class, assuming the clutch and frame hold together but in the Jr class, the CM50 is a far superior bike. Then there's the Cobra customer service.

My son races an 01 Polini X-1. It's a solid bike that hasn't given us any problems. I just wish it wasn't quite so heavy.

Could not have said it better myself. Cobra has 19 out of 20 possibly AMA national champions in the last decade. 12 out of the top 15 in the jr class last year were cobras. About 50/50 cobra/ktm. One lem mixed in there I think. % wise if you go # of bikes sold to # of bikes at Loretta's the Cobra dominates. The problem up until Sean and CO. bought cobra was that they were not marketed. You never heard of a cobra til you got whupped by one at the races. In the last year they have stepped up the game marketing and the bikes are going like hotcakes. I'm secretly hoping for the 65 at the end of this year and an 85 soon after. wink wink sean... ;)

 

[ZeCatfish]

Moto Morini has a new 65cc 6 speed engine, Lem has plans to build a bike around it, I've seen one picture of the critter so far. Lost the URL though.

 

[Jasle]

yea their 65 is prettty nice. same problem as their 50's with the steering angle from the people I've spoken to that have one.

 

[GARY HORSE]

:ride: Hello Jasle - read your emails. You rate Polini no 4 ABOVE KTM!!!!! :bang: , yet all your complaints are about LEM and KTM. What are your issues with regard to Polini?? I am an avid Polini fan - DUE TO seeing the (a) performance of KTM, (b) KTM spares prices (c) client satisfaction and service response?? Polini has given me a sense of confirmed (a) reliability, (b) the x3(r) bike proves to be a very forgiving bike for my 5 year old who stands on buckets at the start - the suspension and air that he gets is far superior to the KTM's even with their after market suspensions - never mind after market exhausts, heads, reed valves, etc. All we do with this bike is change sprockets and it shows in our results - the spares turnover is maximum 1 day delivery!! By the way, we are in South Africa where the temperature here differs from minus one degrees celcius to 36 degrees with a huge humidity factor. Please note, this email is only a comparison to what we have seen between the KTM and the Polini. These are the only bikes we have here - if Polini is only rated no 4 with you, why are they being rated so low when we cannot even get a Cobra in this country... and, our moto-x is of world standard - ask GRANT LANGSTON, TYLA RATTRAY, GREG ALBERTYN and others including our 15 year old Shannon Terblanche :ahhh: in Belgium etc. We are serious about the sport and are producing world champions. In our population (total 44 million), not too bad! Watch out for my son... he's coming........ if you want the challenge to come out and ride in SA, let me know - I will provide the bike and the accommodation. All you have to do is get on the pace!!! Chow!

 

[theroyz71]

Gary, the Polinis are great bikes. My son races an 01 X-1 Works in the 4-6 Stock class. We are the only one in a sea of orange and yellow but we love it. I'm going to get him an X-3 next year.

 

[Jasle]

:ride: Hello Jasle - read your emails. You rate Polini no 4 ABOVE KTM!!!!! :bang: , yet all your complaints are about LEM and KTM. What are your issues with regard to Polini?? I am an avid Polini fan - DUE TO seeing the (a) performance of KTM, (b) KTM spares prices (c) client satisfaction and service response?? Polini has given me a sense of confirmed (a) reliability, (b) the x3(r) bike proves to be a very forgiving bike for my 5 year old who stands on buckets at the start - the suspension and air that he gets is far superior to the KTM's even with their after market suspensions - never mind after market exhausts, heads, reed valves, etc. All we do with this bike is change sprockets and it shows in our results - the spares turnover is maximum 1 day delivery!! By the way, we are in South Africa where the temperature here differs from minus one degrees celcius to 36 degrees with a huge humidity factor. Please note, this email is only a comparison to what we have seen between the KTM and the Polini. These are the only bikes we have here - if Polini is only rated no 4 with you, why are they being rated so low when we cannot even get a Cobra in this country... and, our moto-x is of world standard - ask GRANT LANGSTON, TYLA RATTRAY, GREG ALBERTYN and others including our 15 year old Shannon Terblanche :ahhh: in Belgium etc. We are serious about the sport and are producing world champions. In our population (total 44 million), not too bad! Watch out for my son... he's coming........ if you want the challenge to come out and ride in SA, let me know - I will provide the bike and the accommodation. All you have to do is get on the pace!!! Chow!

My biggest problem with Polini in the past has been with ACTION, their importer which has recently changed. AMEN to that. They way they treat dealers, forget to get paperwork done in time for their bikes to be legal. Parts obtainment issues for dealers, weak transmissions previously(fixed), The water pump design is ridiqulous. Someone was asleep during that design meeting. No water pump unless the rear wheel is turning!!! Seen many kids overheat at the line. My experiences with Polini are in the USA only where we HAD a huge problem with the importer in my opinion which affeced the racers in a hugely negative way. They were only rated low because of our issues with parts and paperwork. Hard to race if your not homologated by the large race associations. Now that the importer situation has changed I think it will change my rating of the bike. All in all its a better bike than the KTM if your just comparing bike to bike. The rest will have to be proven over the course of the future.


Now as to getting Cobra's in your country I think you can import them from the UK. If not talk to Sean H. as they are putting dealerships all over. UK, Guatamala...ect. After the dominance at the worlds in Belguim this year you should be able to see what bike should be the measuring stick.

 

[GARY HORSE]

Sunday, August 14, 2005
Hi there Jasle
Thanks for your reply. It seems like you have a fair and honest evaluation :nod: about the pros and cons of the various bikes. We don’t know too much about the Cobra as I mentioned previously but have been following the posts on the internet and would love to know more about the bike. I have also been reading the comments about the Polini Pitbike (110-4-stroke) . In our province we have one and apparently in Johannesburg the Polini’s blew the opposition away in a race and on the flat track - we were told it “smoked” the field. They said it is a standard bike and apparently you can get a 4 valve head ohlins rear shock(?), a 125cc kit and many other mods – everyone was raving about the Polini suspension – I have yet to see it in action – the guys were mentioning that it has a moto-x style airbox not just a foam filter exposed as our conditions here are quite dusty. They mentioned the brakes to be very efficient and are supposedly cable not hydraulic. I will try to find out more. I enquired about one and were told they were sold out – next shipment due in about 10 days time.

Do you know of any website or sites that have the facts about performance minibikes 50cc 2 strokes – what bike has the most horsepower standard (what is the fastest minibike in the world?) on paper. LEM, KTM, Polini, Cobra, etc etc.

You mentioned overheating with regard to the Polini - please let us know if there are any other common faults or areas of concern – we have had to replace 2 x swing arm bushes at a cost of R12 each (about $2 each). Our pistons and rings last about 3 months with riding approx 3 times per week. We used to battle with overheating until we changed the port timing and changed the oil used on the clutch (standard 2-shoe).

We appreciate any feedback from yourself :think: or any of the other guys/girls out there! :yikes:

 

[Jasle]

funny you mention the clutch. the Polini X2's-X3's here come with a 3 shoe standard. It is a big performance enhancer over the 2 shoe in mx but not flat track. In the X2 the suspension is very subpar when compared to the Cobra but in the X3 its much closer. The King comes with a new Fox shock stock that is an incredible unit from what I hear. As far as horsepower figures i don't know of such a beast. I will point out that Cobra does not claim they have the most power but they claim to have the most useable power. That meaning best torque at clutch engagment and through the powerband. A very broad powerband. Here in the USA Cobra has now won 21/22 AMA National championships since they became avail in 1994(senior) 1997(jr). This year was their first year going to the Worlds in Belgium where all riders that went ended up in the top 10 including 1st and 2nd. As far as fastest bike I thought that Cobra still held the land speed record for a 50cc at 78mph but I'm not certain if that is still good info or not??? I could see owning one being a problem because of no dealer where you live. If someone were to become a dealer then it would be worth it. I know Cobra is agressivley marketing their bike worldwide so maybe some day soon? If you know anyone interested in being a dealer I'm certain Sean would like to hear from them.


As far as the Polini 4 stroke goes we cut ties with them before they came out and I only saw a little blurb about them. they look nice but with so many crf50 replica's coming out of China for so little money its hard for them to compete over here. I heard their price was close to $2500US and I have 125cc crf copies with tons of goodies for $1200US so you can see its pretty tight competition. There are a few brands offering a 3 valve head stock and those bikes are in the $1900US range. The ohlins shock might be a nice benefit but many of the chinese ones come with a fairly decent shock. The difference being its mostly not kids racing the 4-stroke over here its adults so the shocks are setup for more weight. I'm imagining the Polini is more setup for a kid to race it??? Its quite the rage here the pit bike racing. not sure if you found it but Polinitalk.com is a decent site to bookmark. light traffic but good info. some good info can be found sometimes in the other bike section of the mini's forum on www.ktmtalk.com too. of course there is cobratalk.com but not much polini info there. As far as things I've seen go wrong with the Polini? The 3 shoe clutch hits harder and it can trash the primary gear and transmission gears. but they beefed the trans up to prevent this. Pay special attention to the trans bearing slop as a loose bearing can kill the bottom end. I've had the little plastic waterpump drive gear pop off the shaft inside the case. its simply pressed on with no spline or anything to hold it. if the wp bearins siez it can ruin it require a case split to fix the waterpump. Had several frames break where the back "subframe" welds to the main structure. Had several pipes crack after the expansion chamber. a small brace helps. the kicker seems to wear out the clutch cover and leak seen this on a few of the Polini's. One thing I'm definetley not certain of is if you get the same stuff as we do in your market. WE have the X2 and X3 which come with 2 shoe clutches. We have the X2/X3 Works bikes that come with 3 shoe clutches, carbon fibre silencer hydraulic brakes. That might be a big difference???

 

[theroyz71]

Polini Talk is a dead site.
Try http://poliniusa.com/forum/index.php instead.

Also, I've never heard of an X-2, we have an X-1 Works that we race in the 4-6 class.

Here's a short clip of my son on his Polini:
http://media.putfile.com/MOV0002369