Crf

[ktm033]

This past week I finally rode a CRF450. It was an '02. With all of the hype in the magazines I figured riding the mighty CRF would make me want to sell my '02 EE big bore kitted 450 MXC and buy red. The CRF was nice. I can say without a doubt that I prefer my pumpkin. Now it is my understanding that the '03 450 SX will be a short stroke motor, like my kitted MXC. Might not be a great comparison but after my ride I believe that my pumpkin makes more power than the CRF, certainly more usable power, which leads me to believe that the '03 450 SX should be the odds on favorite to be the king of the 450 MX bikes this year. I have read all of the articles on the new YZF and am sure that the conclusion in the magazines wether it be MXA, Dirt Bike or Dirt Rider will be something to the effect of "although the KTM has the best power, comes stock with the best equipment, handles great, starts easy (hot or cold), very reliable the color of the bike didn't set well with our testers. As a result we rated it a close third to the CRF and YZF, the gap closes every year." Although McGrath was a great pick up for KTM I think their next payroll addition should be a magazine editor. :flame:

 

[johnpace2]

I think the key will be how the KTM handles as compared to the other two.

I don't think my KTM handles as well as my previous 00 CR 125, other than that, the bike is killer. Motor rips, haven't added any accessories to it...I did have a suspension revalve which I am still dialing in.

Overall I'm pretty happy with my KTM, but I do find myself missing my Honda at some points. I have no idea why... Maybe the magazine editors feel the same way... Who knows.

John

 

[DanS]

KTM's adds are getting bigger in the mags so the reviews are getting better too. As soon as their add space gets as big as the others I'm sure the bikes will get just as good too.

 

[ktm033]

Agreed!

 

[Smitty]

KTM033,

Did you think that the CRF had much more snap than your SX? I ride a CRF and in test riding a kitted 01 450 I felt like my CRF was more powerful and quick......

 

[ktm033]

smitty,

was just different. felt as though the Honda had almost as much peak power as my bike just didn't produce it down low like mine. it was a nice bike, i could get use to it but the pumpkin just had more usable power all over, IMHO.

 

[Smitty]

I see what your saying. The CRF definitely feels a little herky-jerky at low rpms. I just bought a 9 oz weight this week so we'll see if some of that goes away. I think the delivery is so much different you have to ride each bike 10-20 miles to really understand what you've got.

 

[ktm033]

you know you are probably right, like I said I am sure that I could get use to it but being use to the pumpkin it remained my preference. I just really missed (with the 450 kit) where the CRF had more, don't think it necessarily had less but would not say it had more power, just different.

 

[johntt]

Just read the new Dirt Rider today. It had a dyno graph of the yzf and crf 450, and all the two stroke 250 MXer's including KTM 250[no 450sx yet]. The ktm 250 had the highest peak with the crf a close second. The crf had the widest spread of power out of all of them including the yzf. This was an 03 though. I believe the 450sx may or may not have higher peak numbers than the crf but not the peak and spread. The only ktm to compare it to in the past was the 520 which should make more power anyway. If the yzf or crf were 520/525's they would walk all over that PUMPKIN.

 

[ktm033]

couldn't disagree more with you johntt, if you notice compare the jap two strokes to their 4 stroke brothers, the same will probably be true once the 450 sx is released vs. its two stroke brothers which is further bad news for the gents choosing red or blue over orange. Based on the dyno chart in the article you reference and the differences between the CRF and CR250 as well as the YZF and YZ 250 the 450 SX could very well be predicted to make about 54 stock HP. All of the 2 stroke dyno charts look similiar as would be expected, just the pumpkin has a much higher peak then the other bikes. It was interesting because in the same issue is an article about McGrath and his switch, in the article he states that the 250sx is the fastest bike he has ever ridden. Granted he is being paid to say that but I would contend that the editors of Dirt Rider are also influenced by what they are paid. C'mon the worst comment about the 03 250 SX being that the fork is a bit harsh, show me one rider that rides competitively that does not have his suspension tuned prior to racing his bike! The numbers do not lie, same MSRP, more peak hp, lightest bike (tied) in the 250 class and bast stock components. Should you wish to throw your money away on red, blue, yellow or green good for you, I believe it is simply Darwin's at work, but the tide has certainly turned, appears to have an orange tint to it!

 

[SFO]

Hmmm, a CR-F post in the KTM forum.
Clearly objective comparisons and no orange vs. red, (or orange vs. japanese), going on here.

 

[johntt]

KTM's make high HP on their 2-strokes so what does that have to do with their 4-strokes? They haven't made an equal displacement 4-stroke to compare yet.A 400sx doesn't compare powerwise but a 520 does because it's bigger. I hope the 450sx has more power than the others so they will have to respond.By the way, the 250sx had the highest peak but not the most low end or midrange out of the 2-strokes, like a high HP 125. There's no use in arguing over a bike that hasn't been ridden in the real world as of yet other than hearsay from Europe.

 

[ktm033]

again johntt hate to be the bearer of bad tiding but looking at the chart you are referencing it appears as though way down low the 250sx is ahead of the japanese two strokes then at about 4300 rpm the yamaha and suzuki make a little more until 6700 rpm where the suzuki rockets up with the 250 sx over top of the other three the suzuki dies at 7700 rpm and the katoom continues its linear path to a peak of about 10% more than the japanese bikes so again don't think you are right. Number don't lie. Mike Lafferty did pretty well with a 4 stroke katoom against all of the japanese two stroke 250's in the GNCC's this year, the yamaha is new as well. My projection was based on the performance of the jap 2 strokes vs. the jap 4 strokes, based on the way the engines work. The others already need to respond based on the 2 strokes performance and am willing to bet that the 4 stroke will do the same...

 

[motomickey]

The KTM 450 will fit right in with the Honda and Yamaha on power-based on a dyno at a west coast large accessory developer/retailer/and runner of a green factory support team. Johntt, it's nice that you like the Honda, but you should remember that it was yellow and blue that first got the ball rolling for technically superior fourstrokes-HUSABERG. Yamaha brought it to the masses and Honda played follow the leader. IF you think the bikes ran on the US circuit were stock displacement-get real, the 4 strokes all ran bigger than stock with alot of mods-which bike had the most holeshots-a non factory KTM and a factory HONDA 2 stroke. KTM chose to run bikes as allowed by the rules. The 450 rule was one put into effect because the others couldn't run with the big boys from KTM, Husaberg and Husqvarna. One of the facts-if you're the big dog$$$$ and you don't like the rules, have them changed. Remember when the US had an open class-Suzuki and Yamaha got rid of that.

 

[ktm033]

nailed it moto!

 

[DEA]

:worship: Horsepower,horsepower,horsepower, It only matters how it's put to the ground and stays there.
Don't it ? :flame:

 

[geremacheks]

The color of the bike didn't sit well with our testers

Actually that new orange colored front fender is going to be a hit with the dirt mags. That just might put it over the edge.

 

[johntt]

Motomickey, I'm speaking of stock bikes exclusively. You also don't know for a fact that all the factory bikes besides KTM are using overbores. I also stated that I hope the 450sx is fast didn't I? You can't really believe that Husabergs are resposible for all this ? KTM bought Husaberg and used their engine design. There an effective, simple design, but still don't make the HP per cc of the jap bikes. I'm just guessing that unless they have something new in design they won't make the HP of the Yamaha-Honda, no matter what some dyno in somebody's friend's, cousin's attic on the west coast says.

 

[ktm033]

"There an effective, simple design, but still don't make the HP per cc of the jab bikes", huh? Thought this latest string started regarding the superior HP of the 2003 250 sx over the japanese 250 and 450's? Regarding the guessing part please refer to the dyno, you guessed wrong, they, assuming you mean KTM currently build a 250 2 stroke that makes significantly more peak HP then its Red, Blue, Yellow and Green 250 competitors as well as the Red and Blue 450 4 stroke competitors as evidenced by the dyno report in the Dirt Rider article being referenced here. Furthermore johntt I don't think motomickeys point was that Husaberg was responsible for all this but that the design ideas that have led to the best 4 strokes on the planet were inked, tested and put into production by the engineers/designers at Husaberg a few years ago. The current KTM 4 strokes, although different, have roots based in the first Husaberg efforts.

 

[Smitty]

What input does the Husaberg have on the YZF Five Valve Head?

Why is it so hard for people to let go of the Orange against the world, or vice versa, and admit that there are no huge gaps in performance between any manufacturer? They're all fast, they all break.....

 

[motomickey]

Johtt-read my post carefully. The Dyno in question is the one used by dirt bike magazine-the bike in question is their test 450. The place in question is hardly a backyard mechanics....They have had supercross and mx championships out of their shop for green and red bikes, along with providing factory support to all teams but the current red team (do the initials PC mean anything to you?). The KTM fell right in the middle of the Honda and the Yamaha. Nexts month DirtBike should reflect this. Also if you know KTMs, they have taken points from husaberg and improved them. The current husaberg design is very different from the KTM (husabergs have the cylinders integrated into the cases). The ball got rolling because Joel Smets won numerous 500cc world championships on Husabergs and KTMs. And yes, I do know that the others were not running stock bores-how do you think testing got done on the 450 Yamaha, and Wiseco built a bigger "450 " honda and had their piston used by other "companies". Its hard to get the details/secrets from the factory, but it is generally known that the rules are bent quite often. FYI there were alot of 125cc bikes that were 133s. As far as comparing stock bikes to bikes on the circuit-look at the 125 Kawasaki for comparision. The bike was regarded as weak by everyone-Stewart's wasn't.

 

[motomickey]

Smitty is absolutely right about his statement of they are all fast and they all break. The reason everyone defends orange here is it is a site for KTM/Eurobikes. As for husabergs input with yamaha-they probably didn't, what they did was raise the bar in 500cc mx for 4 strokes. Yamaha wanted to win in europe, so they made the YZF. Doug Henry developed here in the US taking advantage of rules and absolutely proving he is one of the best racers in the world. As far as technology goes, one has to ask-why haven't Yamaha and Honda started using hydralic clutches yet? There are pros and cons on all the bikes!!! Which means, frankly, I'd rather be riding with all you guys than sitting here debating this!!!!!!!!
work is a four letter word.

 

[johntt]

THE 4-stroke KTMs don't make the HP per cc of the jap bikes. I'm not talking about 2-strokes.KTM033, you brought the 2-strokes into this by using the 250sx HP as a predictor of what a totally different 4-stroke will produce. The 02 250sx made huge HP also so why weren't the KTM 4-strokes producing more HP per cc last year. The KTM will be in the hunt no doubt but it won't out class the other bikes and produce way more power. These bikes don't leapfrog each other year to year in performance,they get a little here and a little there.

 

[380EXCman]

I have been wanting to get in on this for a while...... :flame:

What input does the Husaberg have on the YZF Five Valve Head?

I think riders of current CRF, YZF and RFS's owe a lot to Husaberg/Husqvarna. While the red an blue guys were making 4-strokes that made better boat anchors than dirtbikes(XT TT XL XR) the european mfg (Husqvarna, Husaberg and later KTM with the LC4) were making lightweight/fast/well suspended race bikes. No doubt Yamaha took this thing to a whole nother level... Much of the enthusiasm and economic growth the motorcycle industry has experienced is owed in my opinion to Yamaha. :thumb:

Why is it so hard for people to let go of the Orange against the world, or vice versa, and admit that there are no huge gaps in performance between any manufacturer? They're all fast, they all break.....

I think most of us are tired of being told by these fish wraps and the rednecks that take them for truth that our bikes are sub standard or bottom of the rung equipment. This dirtrider mag test is a good example. If you look at the MFG ads placed within the test pages it was Honda with a 3 page ad, Yamaha with a 2 page ad and Suzuki with a 1 page ad. Kinda funny how it went 1, 2, 3, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki. For sure they are all fast and they all break. No one can honestly argue that one is more reliable than the other. With all this being said the european MFG's mainly KTM offer bikes that are on an equal playing field with the Japanese MFG's. But to say a KTM is not as good as a CRF because the fork is harsh, when last year it was to soft and the year before it was the front fender being ugly is pretty rediculous. If anything the nicities that you get with the KTM will more than make up for any complaints these fish wraps have with the bikes that most mere mortals will never notice anyway.

As for how the 450SX will stack up no one really knows yet. It is true that Yamaha and Honda have made more HP per cc than KTM in the 4-stroke department but one reason may be that they have not had to play on an equal playing field in the USA until now. Also over in europe the 500 cc class is still going strong and if Yamaha shows up with a 500cc 5 valve alum framed thumper you have to believe that KTM is gonna show up with their biggest gun as well. I have to believe that the KTM will be plenty competitive. Even if they are using the same baisc head design as previous models. Im sure Rich could dream up some head mods to make the KTM's put out more hp than before.

The KTM will be in the hunt no doubt but it won't out class the other bikes and produce way more power.

I agree. However I believe the KTM will be competive and as long as its right with them in the hp department the KTM really becomes a favorite once you throw in all the good stuff that comes with the Orange bikes.

It would be intresting to see how KTM would stack-up in a shootout if they bought those high dollar multi page high gloss ads.

Dirtrider really would have had a good test if they would have just pasted the specs, dyno graphs, a bunch of cool photos and just this statement from their conclusion "A good deal is enough reason to purcahse any of these machines."

What none of us should ever take for granted is the AMA. Thank them for the production rule and the awsome bike we have today.

 

[Camstyn]

Nice post, I agree whole heartedly. All of the bikes are good performers nowadays. Some cater to different folks, but they are all capable of winning.
I've owned my share of Japanese bikes, I like them, they perform great. I never got tired of riding them, but I sure got tired of dealing with the weaknesses that they all come with. I ponied up and bought a Euro bike, I wasn't sure on how I would like it.. After owning it for a while, I'm sold on them. The performance is excellent, but what's even better is the quality parts that they are littered with, and the ingenious design features that are hidden within. They are an absolute pleasure to spin the wrenches on, and in general, have much less mechanical weaknesses. Take it out of the crate and race it, no substandard components. The only mods neccessary, in general, are to custom tailor the bike to your own preferences.

They are all excellent bikes. I certainly wouldn't mind riding a new YZ450F or CRF450, but I think they are very overpriced, considering all of the sub-par stuff that they are detailed with in comparison to a European bike.
If the Japanese manufacturers detailed their bikes as nicely as the European companies do, I'd probably own one right now instead of the TM. If that day ever comes, then we'll see.