GM - Ford – Chrysler

[Wolverine423]

Does anybody have a opinion that they would like to share concerning the bail out with the tax payers moneys?....Good thing? Bad thing? Is it the tax payers responsibility for pension & health plans to stay a float?…..Lay off moneys?...Under paid workers?..Over paid workers?...Skilled & unskilled wages?...Long term out look for the UAW?....Does the auto industries need the UAW?...

 

[IndyMX]

If the UAW isn't willing to take a pay cut to help save their jobs, why should the tax payers save them?

 

[UP Magoo]

I say give 'em wristbands so we know who they are.

 

[XRpredator]

If the UAW isn't willing to take a pay cut to help save their jobs, why should the tax payers save them?

Bingo.

I'm a little biased right now, since the $80.00/hour UAW guy who assembled our 2008 Chevy 1-ton forgot to adjust the throw on the shifter for the transfer case and I couldn't get it into 4-wheel drive while I was plowing snow yesterday. :bang:

 

[09oneL]

I am not sure on the whole bial out deal, the big three have made alot of bad mistakes and the UAW has been a little too sucsessfull. In my opinion they have been paying much more than competitive wages and bennys. However, I would much rather give tax payer money to the auto workers than to the greedy hustlers on wall street.

Let's take care of the folks who take a shower after work!

 

[_JOE_]

If the UAW isn't willing to take a pay cut to help save their jobs, why should the tax payers save them?

I agree 100%. I bust my arse at work to do the best possible job I can. I would certainly rather take a 10% pay cut and keep my job than be jobless.

I'm a little biased right now, since the $80.00/hour UAW guy who assembled our 2008 Chevy 1-ton forgot to adjust the throw on the shifter for the transfer case and I couldn't get it into 4-wheel drive while I was plowing snow yesterday.

You would be surprised at the poor build quality of alot of american vehicles. Not to mention the known bad designs that continue to be used. I'm baffled daily by the design shortcomings of ALOT of late model cars.

 

[BadgerMan]

Why should people making twenty dollars per hour pay to "bail out" people making thirty dollars per hour?

 

[IndyMX]

Just another reasons why I don't like labor unions. They've outlived their usefulness.

 

[polishsausage]

I was in a labor union (not UAW) for 5 years. Pay was good and I liked my job. Unfortunately the union felt it was more appropriate to "strike" than take a 50 cent an hour raise. Tough to feed a family without a paycheck. I decided that it wasnt for me and got out and found other work than was not union labor related. More power to those that can make a lot of money and belong to a union....However, dont ask me to loan you the $$ because your labor costs are too high and you cant afford to run the company.

The Big 3 needs to fold and restructure.

 

[flyingfuzzball]

The Big 3 needs to fold and restructure.

which would happen if they went bankrupt.

and i agree with the unions. they are killing the american automakers (along with crappy design and horrible decisions but those aside) how can a company forced to pay unions $40 an hour compete with cheaper labor in china and mexico?

also...frankly their designs are crappy. i would rather them make something "modern" looking then another challenger. i look at that sort of like hollywood remaking the bond movies. sure you loved them the first time but did they really need another Casino Royale people (or at least me personally) want something new and interesting not something redone.

PS if i totally messed up some statistic or just made myself look like an idiot in some way please inform me of it.

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

What is going to happen, is going to happen sooner or later anyways. We should never have bailed out anyone, banks included! The auto industry has been going down for quite some time. They are not going to change a damn thing, and neither are the unions, stalemate. Anyone notice all the new cars sitting on the lots? Once again, if they gave the bail out money to us, maybe someone besides politicians could afford a new vehicle? I can not wait to see how the new president deals with this mess?

 

[BadgerMan]

I believe that if wages and benefits were adjusted to something competitive with the transplants, the big three would become competitive shortly there after. In addition, vehicle content that has been outsourced would magically return. Otherwise, the tranplants (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc.) will will continue to eat the big three's lunch until they just wither and die......bail out or not.

BTW, there is a very simple reason why Honda, Toyota, etc. produce vehicles with higher domestic content than the big three.

 

[ws6transam]

You know, I think you folks who state that the big 3 automakers have crappy designs are a major part of the problem. You don't know what you are talking about. You have your little picture of the world, and your small sample of how this, that, or the other car failed you in some fashion, and you know what? Today's quality statistics (J.D. Powers, etc. do not bear it out. The domestic automaker has faults with their cars at the same rate as non-domestic automakers. In other words, the quality of American autos is the same as non-American automobiles. The statistics tell us this. Anything else is just prejudice, in my opinion.

Do you really think us Americans are that dumb that we can no longer compete with the rest of the world when it comes to manufacturing? Is everything made in America now crap? Are you really resigned to forcing Americans into the role of servant, of living in a service economy? God, it makes me mad.

If you don't like Ford, GM, Chrysler, then so be it. However their cars are not crap! Not anymore. Stuff made in the 70's, and early 80's was shabby, to be true. But I don't think it's the case anymore. You state your opinion like it's fact, and so does most of the prejudiced mainstream media. I'm just tired of it. Go try out a new GM ,Ford, or Chrysler by renting one for a weekend from Hertz. I have, and I've been very impressed with the new 2009 models.

You know, everyone is so waiting to see the big three get killed off, and I don't undersand it. It was the big three auto manufacturers that, over the course of only months, converted all of their factories from making cars to making the airplanes, tanks, howitzers, machine guns, and ammunition tht won world war II. Once we kill off our domestic auto industry, we will no longer have a manufacturing base in the USA which could be shifted over to defense, if there was ever another war like WWII.

..as for unions: The American unions are only a shadow of their former selves. Market forces have inexorably forced the unions to downsize their worker wage demands. The UAW has less than half their former membership. It's happening now, today, and without the emasculating of the domestic auto industry. It's also happening without intervention from the government. Also, you are dead wrong when you think that there's $80 an hour janitors in US auto plants. I live in Mid-Michigan and know what those people earn. It's a good wage, yes. I know a UAW union janitor who just recently retired, and at his peak, he was earning around $65,000 per year for a 2,000 hour work year. That's $32.50 an hour for someone with a thirty year service record. The pay of the average union worker is being reduced through worker attrition, which is the natural selection method of free enterprise. ...and what's wrong with that?

 

[BadgerMan]

I spent 15 years in the auto industry as an engineer and in quality assurance. I worked with the big three and most of the transplants. IMO, the big three produce crap compared to the transplants.

That said, it’s a miracle that they are even somewhat competitive given the extra burden that they carry. Instead of spending money on quality materials and/or designs, equipment, etc. a company like GM is forced to spend a huge percentage of the vehicle’s cost on health care and wages. It’s a fact that Blue Cross Blue Shield is GM’s biggest supplier……keep that in mind the next time you wonder why they are having trouble staying competitive.

I own a Ford truck. It’s a good truck but it’s no Toyota. We also own an Outback. It’s an amazing car designed and built in Indiana. The Camry and the Accord are also amazing cars designed and built here, by Americans. As a matter of fact, when I was working with Honda, they were building the world’s supply of Accords in Marysville. That’s right, they were designing and building Accords for EXPORT! Just crazy……Honda was building cars here and exporting them while the big three were building cars (or content) elsewhere and importing them. That’s what that cost burden had done to the big three.

BTW, I just rented a new Mustang and drove it to Columbus a few weeks ago. Neat car but not the quality of the wife’s Subaru……not even close.

 

[Shagy100]

Bingo.

I'm a little biased right now, since the $80.00/hour UAW guy who assembled our 2008 Chevy 1-ton forgot to adjust the throw on the shifter for the transfer case and I couldn't get it into 4-wheel drive while I was plowing snow yesterday. :bang:

sir if you knew anything of what a gm employee makes its 27 dollars an hour and i would love to see half of the guys on here do the jobs my father has done through the years and the uaw is needed you people dont have to fight for your insurance and work conditions. Without this organization these workers would have nothing for benifits.

 

[ws6transam]

Yeah, the Mustang isn't very fun. I rented one for 500 miles last fall in Northern California & didn't like it. However I recently got a 2009 Chevy Malibu for moving around Greenbelt MD, and it was probably the nicest, tightest car I've ever driven. I definitely will consider that car. The interior was spot-on, and the handling was great.

The last Nissan Altima I rented, I *hated*.

 

[_JOE_]

I have 10 years experience as a highly trained automotive service tech. I can probly tell you a list of design flaws in almost any car on the road. The big 3's vehicles DO NOT hold up as well as Toyota or Honda. Initial quality is nothing when you're talking about something you are asking to last a couple decades and hundreds of thousands of miles. A couple examples of poor designs that where used up until very recently are the Chrysler PT Cruiser, Ford Explorer, Ford Taurus, and the majority of 6 cylinder front wheel drive GM cars. People complain regularly about their cars having major problems soon after warranties run out. If you sit down and compare repair bills of most domestic vehicles to Toyota or Honda you WILL see a large difference. I have no doubt that the warranty claim numbers within the first 30k miles are similar, but look at cars with 125k miles. At least when Toyota makes something really shoddy(circa Y2K tacoma frames) they stand up and take responsibility. They're giving folks with rotted tacoma frames 150% of retail value for those trucks when traded on a new toyota. People are getting brand new trucks for 5k dollars in some cases. Why? Becuase toyota has enough sense to realize that is thier reputation on the line. They want the consumer to be CONFIDENT that the vehicle they just spent 30k+ on is going to hold up longer than 50k miles.

I'll stop now.

 

[BadgerMan]

Yeah, the Mustang isn't very fun. I rented one for 500 miles last fall in Northern California & didn't like it. However I recently got a 2009 Chevy Malibu for moving around Greenbelt MD, and it was probably the nicest, tightest car I've ever driven. I definitely will consider that car. The interior was spot-on, and the handling was great.

The last Nissan Altima I rented, I *hated*.

Yeah, I was never a Nissan fan but I drove a new Sentra recently and was impressed. Like I said above, the big three has done an amazing job given the burden they carry. However, I think gas prices and the economy may be the final nail in their coffin unless they get some real help from the UAW. Sustained lower gas prices and fewer governmental regulations would do wonders too.

I am really not worried about manufacturing capacity or expertise. We (Americans) might be building Hondas and Toyotas instead of Fords and Chevys but we are also building F35's and F22's. :nod:

 

[polishsausage]

You know, I think you folks who state that the big 3 automakers have crappy designs are a major part of the problem. You don't know what you are talking about. You have your little picture of the world, and your small sample of how this, that, or the other car failed you in some fashion, and you know what? Today's quality statistics (J.D. Powers, etc. do not bear it out. The domestic automaker has faults with their cars at the same rate as non-domestic automakers. In other words, the quality of American autos is the same as non-American automobiles. The statistics tell us this. Anything else is just prejudice, in my opinion.

Do you really think us Americans are that dumb that we can no longer compete with the rest of the world when it comes to manufacturing? Is everything made in America now crap? Are you really resigned to forcing Americans into the role of servant, of living in a service economy? God, it makes me mad.

If you don't like Ford, GM, Chrysler, then so be it. However their cars are not crap! Not anymore. Stuff made in the 70's, and early 80's was shabby, to be true. But I don't think it's the case anymore. You state your opinion like it's fact, and so does most of the prejudiced mainstream media. I'm just tired of it. Go try out a new GM ,Ford, or Chrysler by renting one for a weekend from Hertz. I have, and I've been very impressed with the new 2009 models.

You know, everyone is so waiting to see the big three get killed off, and I don't undersand it. It was the big three auto manufacturers that, over the course of only months, converted all of their factories from making cars to making the airplanes, tanks, howitzers, machine guns, and ammunition tht won world war II. Once we kill off our domestic auto industry, we will no longer have a manufacturing base in the USA which could be shifted over to defense, if there was ever another war like WWII.

..as for unions: The American unions are only a shadow of their former selves. Market forces have inexorably forced the unions to downsize their worker wage demands. The UAW has less than half their former membership. It's happening now, today, and without the emasculating of the domestic auto industry. It's also happening without intervention from the government. Also, you are dead wrong when you think that there's $80 an hour janitors in US auto plants. I live in Mid-Michigan and know what those people earn. It's a good wage, yes. I know a UAW union janitor who just recently retired, and at his peak, he was earning around $65,000 per year for a 2,000 hour work year. That's $32.50 an hour for someone with a thirty year service record. The pay of the average union worker is being reduced through worker attrition, which is the natural selection method of free enterprise. ...and what's wrong with that?

You are wrong. I dont see people wanting to see the big 3 killed off. dont turn this into a "we hate the big three speech" Nobody in their right mind would like to see ANYONE lose there job. The fact of the matter is that GM has a $72 an hour cost per labor employee compared to that of Toyota, which has roughly a $48 an hour cost. The inflated cost of GM is in large part, if not mostly paying for retirees and their health benefits. How did the Big 3 get to that point? Trust me, the Big 3 didnt want to, but because of pressure from possible striking and shut down plants, they decided to let lem have their demands. the UAW is corrupt and only until now are they are beginning to see an end of their reign. Suprisingly they want to blame the republican party for not wanting to negotiate, after the Senate vote defeat last week.

When you say that the "unions are just a shadow of what they use to be"...thats BS. If they were a shadow they would have made it a point to find out how to be competitive with Toyota and give up what they "strong-armed" the big three into doing. they were not going to give up the "job bank" emplyees that are earning roughly the same wage and not working. ONLY until NOw does the UAW want to agree to let this slide.....total BS by UAW president Paul Gettlefinger and his corupt cronies!

GM is the #1 selling car in China. However in china, the labor is on an even playing field. In fact, GM is successful in nearly every country that they do business in.

I've got no problem with the quality. I have been a Ford guy my entire life.


The big three is like a house burning down....instead of putting the fire out and rebuilding, the dems and koolaid drinkers think we should put $$ into new windows while we watch it burn.

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

I know a few people that work on the line at ford. You could not pay me double that to do their work! People sure jump on what the idiot box says. The whole problem is not the unions, thats stupid! What the hourly get paid is but a small chunk of that price tag on that new vehicle. Anyone got any facts on the American cars are junk bs? I know plenty of foreign cars that have had issues! The Japanese taught Detroit how to build with aluminum, plastic, rubber, tighter tolerances, and smaller! Stupid American market wants a big azz engine that gets small engine economy, we also want a big vehicle that fits anywhere. Till Detroit consolidates, cuts pay on both sides of the table, and build a basic line of vehicles designed to make them money, they will disappear. Isn't that what the foreign market sells here? They do not care what we want, or what our needs are.

 

[TJC510]

I work for a supplier for Ford, GM, Chrysler, and Toyota. its not a union job and we don't have to fight for insurance or work conditions. we don't get paid squat, and we do have to bust our ass to keep our jobs. the lazy people are the first to get laid off and the last to get called back, if at all. we don't have a typical "bump" system like everyone else.

i can almost guarantee that if the UAW was to disappear, half the people that work for the big 3 will get the boot.

one thing i am for sure, if the big three go under, i won't be making it to any races this year. right now, im trying to save all the money i can, just in case. if nothing happens, then ill have a good sum in the bank and can buy a house or something.

 

[_JOE_]

I know a few people that work on the line at ford. You could not pay me double that to do their work! People sure jump on what the idiot box says. The whole problem is not the unions, thats stupid! What the hourly get paid is but a small chunk of that price tag on that new vehicle. Anyone got any facts on the American cars are junk bs? I know plenty of foreign cars that have had issues! The Japanese taught Detroit how to build with aluminum, plastic, rubber, tighter tolerances, and smaller! Stupid American market wants a big azz engine that gets small engine economy, we also want a big vehicle that fits anywhere. Till Detroit consolidates, cuts pay on both sides of the table, and build a basic line of vehicles designed to make them money, they will disappear. Isn't that what the foreign market sells here? They do not care what we want, or what our needs are.

As a matter of fact I do. I'll use late model Ford Taurus/Explorer as examples. I've had many customers see coil spring failures in vehicles with less than 75k miles. I've never seen a camry, accord, avalon, crv, highlander, etc break a coil spring ever. These parts continuously fail. Fords response to the taurus springs? They built some little guard to bolt to the strut to keep the spring from blowing out the tire when it breaks. When I call the dealer for rear coils on an explorer and they laugh and tell me how ****ty they are that says something right there. There's many more examples, I don't type that fast so it would take me all night to tell you. If you really want to know I'll give you my phone number and we can talk build quality. Gm 6 cylinder 3.1/3.4L lower intake manifold gaskets are another one that amazes me. Poor unsuspecting folks who end up with repair bills of a grand or more due to poor design.

 

[bruno670]

The main reason that Toyota has done as well as far as sales here in the US is the fact that they listen to what their customers or potential customers are asking for. Not just making a product that has the highest profit. GM and Ford were on a mission to make the largest vehicles on the road with the highest profit margin not paying attention to the "retail" market. People looking for a vehicle on the other hand thinking that they thought that they needed such a beast, mortgaged the hell out of their house just to buy such a gas hog. Both automakers AND the buying public are to blame for this mess. Automakers for making the WRONG vehicles and the stupid public who didn't know better.

I think that the automakers SHOULD be helped out.BUT I also think that the workers should be paid a reasonable wage with acceptable benefits. Not overpaid with outlandish benefits like they now are. I also think that the big shots running the plants should NOT be over paid for sitting on their a$$ and making STUPID decisions. If the workers lost some of their pay and the big shot lost MOST of their pay so they could bring the cost of the vehicles down to a realistic price then maybe the car lots might be a bit more empty. $45 to $60,000 for a "suburban" is just plain stupid. Lowering the cost of these urban tanks to a more realistic level would put the hurts on China, Korea, and Japan.

Letting the domestic automakers or any manufacturers die would be the worst decision since putting Bush 43 in office. Even though Honda, Toyota, Kia, Nissan and others have their factorys here you are still sending the majority of our money overseas. Just like the big oil companies, sent most of our money to the middle east. Now we are borrowing our own money back from them to bail our own a$$es out of our stupidity. Same thing with China, we are in debt with China for almost 1 trillion dollars. Isn't that what we spent with them last year buying their crap? Give them the money and borrowing it back with interest. How smart is that? Lets send ALL of our jobs out of this country and then borrow our own money. KEEP THE JOBS HERE!!!!!
We (people and companys) need to stop being so f---ing greedy. Getting rich quick is never the way. Look at Bernard Madoff, 50billion. Just about covers the auto loans!!
What ever happened to an honest days work for an honest days pay? Work your 30 years, make a decent living, and retire somewhat comfortable. If you make a little extra invest wisely and stash some for later in life.
My opinion for what it's worth.

 

[IndyMX]

sir if you knew anything of what a gm employee makes its 27 dollars an hour and i would love to see half of the guys on here do the jobs my father has done through the years and the uaw is needed you people dont have to fight for your insurance and work conditions. Without this organization these workers would have nothing for benifits.

This is the direct result of what our tax dollars have gotten us so far. And now they want to build cars with that same money.

We're in deep trouble folks.

 

[Shagy100]

As a matter of fact I do. I'll use late model Ford Taurus/Explorer as examples. I've had many customers see coil spring failures in vehicles with less than 75k miles. I've never seen a camry, accord, avalon, crv, highlander, etc break a coil spring ever. These parts continuously fail. Fords response to the taurus springs? They built some little guard to bolt to the strut to keep the spring from blowing out the tire when it breaks. When I call the dealer for rear coils on an explorer and they laugh and tell me how ****ty they are that says something right there. There's many more examples, I don't type that fast so it would take me all night to tell you. If you really want to know I'll give you my phone number and we can talk build quality. Gm 6 cylinder 3.1/3.4L lower intake manifold gaskets are another one that amazes me. Poor unsuspecting folks who end up with repair bills of a grand or more due to poor design.

If you ever really noticed the problem with the 3.1/3.4 is in the bull$hitgaskets. if you put the nice felpro gaskets that are metal and not plastic you fix the problem. Also if forieng cars are so great then why is the toyota camry plant closed cause they cant move them. IN my own opinion if you dont buy american and dont support the country your from get the He11 out. Go live in another country just not here.