Have 02 GG 250 thinking of changing to CRFX want your opinions PLEASE
- Thread starter T-Bone
- Start date
I hate to state the obvious but...
I think it would be hard for anyone to make a true comparison and think one is better than the other. The bikes will have different personalities... one is a 4 stroke and the other is a 2 stroke. It's like apples and oranges, both are different but good in their own ways.
I think the questions you should ask yourself are...
Will the Honda satisfy you out-of-the-box?
If not, how much are you planning on modifications?
Will the extra maintanence of the 4 stroke be worth it (valve adjustments, oil changes w/ filters, etc.)?
What things do you dislike about your Gas Gas that you hope are solved with the Honda?
Are you interested in different throttle response and braking behaviors than you were accustomed to (such as engine braking, low end power characteristics, etc. )?
I don't want to sound biased here, but GasGas are great as-shipped. I'm not bashing 4 strokes or Hondas, but it would be very difficult for me to give up my GasGas after having ridden it and falling in love.
Just think about it some more before rushing into any investments.
I think it would be hard for anyone to make a true comparison and think one is better than the other. The bikes will have different personalities... one is a 4 stroke and the other is a 2 stroke. It's like apples and oranges, both are different but good in their own ways.
I think the questions you should ask yourself are...
Will the Honda satisfy you out-of-the-box?
If not, how much are you planning on modifications?
Will the extra maintanence of the 4 stroke be worth it (valve adjustments, oil changes w/ filters, etc.)?
What things do you dislike about your Gas Gas that you hope are solved with the Honda?
Are you interested in different throttle response and braking behaviors than you were accustomed to (such as engine braking, low end power characteristics, etc. )?
I don't want to sound biased here, but GasGas are great as-shipped. I'm not bashing 4 strokes or Hondas, but it would be very difficult for me to give up my GasGas after having ridden it and falling in love.
Just think about it some more before rushing into any investments.
Dave.Smith
Member
- Dec 15, 2002
- 144
- 0
Great post Matt R. Unless your bike is really tricked out (steering damper, carbon fiber guards, etc, etc) it sounds like a pretty good deal if you only look at the dollars.
I have the X and a friend is selling new Gas Gas. I rejetted and cut the air box. I have always been a KTM and other euro rider but this thing is really good. It will be more maintenance especially if you ride a lot but the suspension, handling and smooth power are unmatched. I traded bikes for part of the day last Sunday with an '05 KTM 250 2 stroke. That was much better than the last one that I had and I liked it but the X has better suspension. He didn't expect the power to be as good and really liked it. You won't be sorry with either one but don't believe the BS about under power with 20 minutes worth of mods.
euro gasgas
Sponsoring Member
- Sep 18, 2001
- 287
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I rode an X and then looked at dyno and torque curves because it felt very soft relative to my old XR300. In stock form it delivers about 25 hp, a stock XR250 delivers 23 with about 40% more torque at lower RPMs. If you do the CCC (closed course competition) mods - then it will have 30 hp on top- but will give up even more torque on the bottom.; Either way - the gasgas has twice as much torque (seriously) and puts out 45 HP. Compared to your gasgas 250 - it's a dog, and it's an unreliable dog.. (I swapped back and forth with a friend's crfx and my 2001 gasgas ec300 - night and day and my gasgas will walk away from it.).
What's odd about the "new technology" four strokes is that they do not generate peak torque until nearly 9k rpm and generate very little torque at lower rpms. Couple this with a five speed gearbox - and a tight woods weapon or extreme trails weapon it is not. (Notice that you are in B.C. - I am in Oregon, so our definition of tight woods is different than from a person from california).
The CRF250X has serious valve train issues that will effect your re-sale on the bike. The world has turned upside down. You now use the phrase - "it's as reliable as a two stroke" to describe a robust powertrain. Sad.
Given that you might like the powerband of the "X" - you should go into it with your eyes open. Go over to thumpertalk.com in the CRF250/X forum and search on "valves". The interesting story is the guy who raced the baja 1000 - of three CRF-Xs entered, none finished due to valve problems - none made it past the 400 mile mark.
- jeff
What's odd about the "new technology" four strokes is that they do not generate peak torque until nearly 9k rpm and generate very little torque at lower rpms. Couple this with a five speed gearbox - and a tight woods weapon or extreme trails weapon it is not. (Notice that you are in B.C. - I am in Oregon, so our definition of tight woods is different than from a person from california).
The CRF250X has serious valve train issues that will effect your re-sale on the bike. The world has turned upside down. You now use the phrase - "it's as reliable as a two stroke" to describe a robust powertrain. Sad.
Given that you might like the powerband of the "X" - you should go into it with your eyes open. Go over to thumpertalk.com in the CRF250/X forum and search on "valves". The interesting story is the guy who raced the baja 1000 - of three CRF-Xs entered, none finished due to valve problems - none made it past the 400 mile mark.
- jeff
I have no problem with opinions... but when you state that a 250 Gas Gas makes 45 hp, get real. You just compared real X dyno results to Gas Gas brochure numbers. Believe me I have nothing against Gas Gas. My friend sells them and another is sponsored by the factory and is riding the national in Cal right now. Here is one of the top American ISDE riders and what does he say. He loves his Gas Gas but also thinks the X is great and asked to boorow my bike for a local HS. He rides a 250 MC and it doesn't make 40 HP.
euro gasgas
Sponsoring Member
- Sep 18, 2001
- 287
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Look here for a dyno curve of EC250 (with messico pipe - euro bike test).
http://www.smackovermotorsports.com/html/dyno_test.html
Look here for dyno and torque curve of a gasgas 300 motor dyno'ed in a quad - puts out 43 hp with greater torque.
http://www.gasgasatv.com/gasgaswild300.htm
By the way the canadian model ec250s put out alot more power on top than a u.s. model - the gasgas made pipe is far superior to the fmf fatty (supplied on u.s. import bikes) in top end HP.
I'll plot the hp and torque numbers against those for the CRF250X later tonight and post it.
- jeff
http://www.smackovermotorsports.com/html/dyno_test.html
Look here for dyno and torque curve of a gasgas 300 motor dyno'ed in a quad - puts out 43 hp with greater torque.
http://www.gasgasatv.com/gasgaswild300.htm
By the way the canadian model ec250s put out alot more power on top than a u.s. model - the gasgas made pipe is far superior to the fmf fatty (supplied on u.s. import bikes) in top end HP.
I'll plot the hp and torque numbers against those for the CRF250X later tonight and post it.
- jeff
I guess you missed the point completely. Maybe you should look at a KX 500. They have way more HP, so they have to be the best bike, right? Any of the jap 250's make more also. I assumed that the guy is looking for a good woods bike not a drag racer. I guess if a AA rider can go as fast or faster with 30 HP than 45HP, there must be something more to it, huh.
In answer to the original post, you probably should try the bike before you decide. If you ride the tight stuff and don't need the hit of a 2 stroke, then you will like the "dog bike". I am fairly certain that you will definately love the suspension/handling. Oh, and by the way, if you are concerned about the Baja thing, check further into it. There is more to it than what this guy wants you to believe.
In answer to the original post, you probably should try the bike before you decide. If you ride the tight stuff and don't need the hit of a 2 stroke, then you will like the "dog bike". I am fairly certain that you will definately love the suspension/handling. Oh, and by the way, if you are concerned about the Baja thing, check further into it. There is more to it than what this guy wants you to believe.
euro gasgas
Sponsoring Member
- Sep 18, 2001
- 287
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No I didn't miss your point at all. Sorry if I flamed but I am so pissed at honda for not building a better motor and bike (for me and my tastes) - I truly want(ed) to buy it. I raced honda XR250s/280s/300s for years and love a small bore 4 stroke. After riding an CRF250X and looking up some dyno curves on the web I was shocked to see how little torque the CRF puts out where it matters - and this matched my seat of the pants feeling when I rode the bike. Maybe I am old school - I like to have low end grunt and pull. I wish they would have given the motor 5 mm of stroke along the way and beef up the valve train.
I did buy a new honda last week - I got a leftover '04 xr250r; Wanted to get one before they are all gone.
- jeff
I did buy a new honda last week - I got a leftover '04 xr250r; Wanted to get one before they are all gone.
- jeff
OK, I get it. But I like this power so much that I struggle to understand those who don't. Maybe I'm used to revving a little more than some. I think I do better with a little soft low end for the really nasty stuff so I don't get into trouble and rev it when I can. That is probably why I struggled with some of the hard hitting KTMs. I had a VOR that was best described as a XR on steroids. It was great but all that low end sometimes would become a handful in the tight stuff. Don't get me wrong, I am concerned with the X valve thing, but after 40 hr, no problem so far. You have to be willing to accept increased maintenance or stick to a 2 stroke.
Hurricane901
~SPONSOR~
- Aug 24, 2001
- 37
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Hey Tbone, I've ridden with you many of times and I dont think power is an issue for you but resale is. You cant go wrong with the honda and you get a new bike every 2 years. Were old and slow and any new bike nowadays gets the job done. Why dont you step up to the plate and go orange, 300 orange, by the way how does my rear fender look? :nener:
So why are we comparing dyno charts?blanc said:
I confess, I've never ridden either of the bikes, but if I were shopping I would expect the GasGas250 to fall somewhere between the CRF250 and the CRF450.
If I were considering a swap from the GasGas250 to the CRF250 I'd expect to be "downsizing" and I'd post a thread in DRN forums to find out if there were enough gains to warrant the swap i.e. handling, resale value, dependability, parts availability etc.
Comparing the bikes performance curves wouldn't help me very much as the two don't really fit in the same catergory.
Or do they?
BTW two days notice has long since expired.
They are more similar than you may think. Obviously the GG has more HP but the Honda handles better and has better suspension. I have a friend who is a Gas Gas factory sponsored rider and used to beg me to race my bike at local events. If a AA rider believes the power is good then I think it is probably good for anyone unless you like to drag race around strip mines...The main thing is to ride them for yourself and decide. If you don't ride the tight stuff then the CRFX is not the bike, but if you love the tightest, nastiest stuff then it is for you. In answer to a previous comment, I do check valves and at 60 or so hours, one exhaust is getting close to reshimming but it is so easy that I could probably do it in a half hour.
euro gasgas
Sponsoring Member
- Sep 18, 2001
- 287
- 0
Ah, the new technology, new bike euphoria. Happens all the time. Bike of year. ya-da ya-da ya-da. Being that this is the gasgas/ktm forum, I am going to knock you out of your delusional high... :)
Being that I have ridden a CRF-X back to back with a gasgas and with an XR250. I made the following observations...
1. The CRF-X handling is very stable and it's steering is very neutral. It is not a sharp turning machine. Relative to the gasgas it doesn't turn nearly as quick. Relative to the XR250, the CRF250X feels like a "sled" (doesn't turn at all).
2. The gasgas has more power and torque everywhere and by a substantial margin. The two bikes are in a different league - the power output on the gasgas is more comparable with the honda CRF450 than it is to the CRF250.
3. The honda XR250 has noticably more power and torque relative to the CRF250X down low. The XR250R is two inches shorter and has a much tighter rake - it will outcorner a CRF-X in the "tight and nasty stuff" with ease. An XR250R will run away and hide from the CRF-X in really tight woods (and I did, and the XR was stock with the baffle and snorkel pulled).
4. Relative to my ohlins suspended gasgas, the CRF-X suspension was harsh both in the front and rear on sharp hits. Low speed dampening was very stable and overall it felt very good, but it ain't perfect and could do with a revalve to make it right.. Your statement that the CRF-X suspension is superior to the gasgas is rather subjective. The argument that showa suspension is somehow better than ohlins is "interesting", to say the least. :)
When a new bike comes out, there is always euphoria that it is some kind of "secret weapon". The CRF250X is a nice bike in it's element. But, given the road racing technology of the motor (high rpm hp and low torque to compete with a 125 two stroke) and the raked out longish feel of the chassis, it is not in it's element in extremely tight and nasty woods. Just my opinion.
I want a small bore 4 stroke to ride in tight woods, because it is "fun". To get it I am adding an ohlins fork and an ohlins shock to the XR250R and will pump up the motor a tad. The CRF-X doesn't do it for me. Too long, too raked out, not enough power and torque on bottom to pull me out of a tight spot. My gasgas ec300 and gasgas txt trials bike are also in the garage.
Now on to reliability. In a poll on thumpertalk, a third of both CRF250R owners and CRF250X owners report major valve issues. Not a bandwagon that I want to jump on. For me to even consider a bike, it must be able to finish the international six day enduro without any major issues. Can you run a CRF250X for six days, 125 miles a day, at full throttle and not have to adjust the valves? Will the bike run that long without mushrooming the valves? Based on what I see, some would and some wouldn't. I'd hate to be in the "some wouldn't" category.
At the six days, there are 10 minute work periods at the end and beginning of the day to work on the bike as it goes into and out of "impound". You have to do tire changes during that period. It will be interesting to see how many CRF-Xs are even entered in the 250 4t class at the six days this year. Let's see, I have 10 minutes to work on the bike - change tires, new air filter, change the oil and shim the valve train. I don't think so.... :(
- jeff
Being that I have ridden a CRF-X back to back with a gasgas and with an XR250. I made the following observations...
1. The CRF-X handling is very stable and it's steering is very neutral. It is not a sharp turning machine. Relative to the gasgas it doesn't turn nearly as quick. Relative to the XR250, the CRF250X feels like a "sled" (doesn't turn at all).
2. The gasgas has more power and torque everywhere and by a substantial margin. The two bikes are in a different league - the power output on the gasgas is more comparable with the honda CRF450 than it is to the CRF250.
3. The honda XR250 has noticably more power and torque relative to the CRF250X down low. The XR250R is two inches shorter and has a much tighter rake - it will outcorner a CRF-X in the "tight and nasty stuff" with ease. An XR250R will run away and hide from the CRF-X in really tight woods (and I did, and the XR was stock with the baffle and snorkel pulled).
4. Relative to my ohlins suspended gasgas, the CRF-X suspension was harsh both in the front and rear on sharp hits. Low speed dampening was very stable and overall it felt very good, but it ain't perfect and could do with a revalve to make it right.. Your statement that the CRF-X suspension is superior to the gasgas is rather subjective. The argument that showa suspension is somehow better than ohlins is "interesting", to say the least. :)
When a new bike comes out, there is always euphoria that it is some kind of "secret weapon". The CRF250X is a nice bike in it's element. But, given the road racing technology of the motor (high rpm hp and low torque to compete with a 125 two stroke) and the raked out longish feel of the chassis, it is not in it's element in extremely tight and nasty woods. Just my opinion.
I want a small bore 4 stroke to ride in tight woods, because it is "fun". To get it I am adding an ohlins fork and an ohlins shock to the XR250R and will pump up the motor a tad. The CRF-X doesn't do it for me. Too long, too raked out, not enough power and torque on bottom to pull me out of a tight spot. My gasgas ec300 and gasgas txt trials bike are also in the garage.
Now on to reliability. In a poll on thumpertalk, a third of both CRF250R owners and CRF250X owners report major valve issues. Not a bandwagon that I want to jump on. For me to even consider a bike, it must be able to finish the international six day enduro without any major issues. Can you run a CRF250X for six days, 125 miles a day, at full throttle and not have to adjust the valves? Will the bike run that long without mushrooming the valves? Based on what I see, some would and some wouldn't. I'd hate to be in the "some wouldn't" category.
At the six days, there are 10 minute work periods at the end and beginning of the day to work on the bike as it goes into and out of "impound". You have to do tire changes during that period. It will be interesting to see how many CRF-Xs are even entered in the 250 4t class at the six days this year. Let's see, I have 10 minutes to work on the bike - change tires, new air filter, change the oil and shim the valve train. I don't think so.... :(
- jeff
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I wasn't comparing showa to ohlins. Gas Gas does not come with ohlins forks now. As for your comments about the X needing revalving, I can only laugh. If I were riding six days, I would not ride a X, or a Husky 250F, or any 250F for that matter(except Yamaha, maybe). But I'm not and I suspect 99% of the people do not either. Do you ride six days? If not, I think I will trust the opinion of a real six day rider when it comes to comparing these bikes. He has yet to get the Marzocchi's on the new gas gas to work all that well yet. There is no question that the X needs to be closely watched for valve issues, but as long as you do the maintenance, I don't see it as a big deal. If it becomes a big deal, I'll probably switch to stainless or PC valves, springs... Comparing an XR to either bike is just ridiculous. I'm not trying to flame here, but it seems like you are not being very objective here.
euro gasgas
Sponsoring Member
- Sep 18, 2001
- 287
- 0
Gasgas offers ohlins forks as an option and you can get it with ohlins now. The zokes are standard - if your friend doesn't like the way his suspension works and he is a "AA" rider - he should contact LTR and get set up. I am sure Les will "support him" if he is sponsored by GasGas Motors - have your friend check out www.lt-racing.com
As far as the "X" needing revalving - they are good, but I think they could be a little better. Like I said, they spike on sharp hits -it's not bad, but they do. I would lighten up the low speed and make it flow more on the high speed compression. It may be the mid-valve needs to be softened up - hard to tell. But, I do prefer my bike set up soft. My LTR revalved Ohlins work better than the boingers on the CRF-X.
Related to my ability, I am an "A" rider who has competed in the national reliability enduro series.. I wasn't ever able to go, but have considered getting back into shape and trying to make the senior team; Several years ago my wife was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer so my priorities have been elsewhere.
In terms of the XR, I have ridden one on and off for the last 20 years. I cannot count the number of times everyone said it was obsolete. Adding some decent suspension on it transforms it into a different machine, one that is very competitive with the CRF-X. In really tight woods, it is very competitive with a CRF-X stock because of it's low end torque and hp. Honda could have built it this way - I wish they would have...
- jeff
As far as the "X" needing revalving - they are good, but I think they could be a little better. Like I said, they spike on sharp hits -it's not bad, but they do. I would lighten up the low speed and make it flow more on the high speed compression. It may be the mid-valve needs to be softened up - hard to tell. But, I do prefer my bike set up soft. My LTR revalved Ohlins work better than the boingers on the CRF-X.
Related to my ability, I am an "A" rider who has competed in the national reliability enduro series.. I wasn't ever able to go, but have considered getting back into shape and trying to make the senior team; Several years ago my wife was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer so my priorities have been elsewhere.
In terms of the XR, I have ridden one on and off for the last 20 years. I cannot count the number of times everyone said it was obsolete. Adding some decent suspension on it transforms it into a different machine, one that is very competitive with the CRF-X. In really tight woods, it is very competitive with a CRF-X stock because of it's low end torque and hp. Honda could have built it this way - I wish they would have...
- jeff
I'm not 100% sure, but I thought they told him that ohlins is not available, but it might have been the only thing they would give him. They are somewhat cheap, but with the exchange rate, I don't blame them. I know they just raised prices and another friend(dealer) was having trouble getting new bikes. I really wonder if they are going to stay in the US if the dollar continues like it is.
cjKTM said:
GasGas, TM, VOR, KTM, Husky, Husaberg, etc. will always have a market in the US regardless of currency exchange rates. There are many riders out there that appreciate the finer things in life compared to the typical jap bikes.
If your friend (dealer) can't get bikes than he must not be dedicated to his customers. I know of other dealers having no issues getting bikes and parts for their riders. I may not have a local dealer by me, but a quick phone call to Smackover gets me parts shipped next day. Actually, that's a good thing since I don't have to waste time driving somewhere to pick a part up!
euro gasgas
Sponsoring Member
- Sep 18, 2001
- 287
- 0
As promised, here is the hp curve showing comparison between CRFX power deliver and that of a gasgas ec250. Blue line on top is gasgas - the magenta line much lower down on the chart is crfx...
And here is torque comparison...
I think the images speak for themselves.... The previous statement from cjKTM that a CRFX and a gasgas 250 "are closer than you think" is questionable. I think the glare of that shiny aluminum frame has affected his objectivity! :laugh:
- jeff
And here is torque comparison...
I think the images speak for themselves.... The previous statement from cjKTM that a CRFX and a gasgas 250 "are closer than you think" is questionable. I think the glare of that shiny aluminum frame has affected his objectivity! :laugh:
- jeff
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