Magazine Shootouts

[ktmboy]

I just got through looking at the Dec. issue of Dirtrider, and their 250/450 shootout, and I was struck by the fact that none of their testers ever rate any of the Euro bikes very well on handling and suspension. I started to wonder if this could be because these guys have ridden Japanese bikes for so long that anything a little different just doesn't feel 'right' to them. :|
I remember that when I switched from a Honda to a KTM the bike felt strange at first, but I adjusted my riding style, and now I love it.
In my opinion, these testers are biased---biased by the fact that they race a certain bike, and maybe they don't have time to really evaluate something they're not used to.
What do you guys that ride Euro bikes feel about how these tests are done?

 

[Camstyn]

I think that no matter how good the european bikes are, they will never win the shootouts. The ugly euro fender will be harder to get over than the weak jap components.

I think that if the testers had to buy one of the bikes and maintain it all year long, all with their own money, they would start to see the light. It seems like value and quality have very little sway in the tests.

 

[Moteaux]

The testers are very biased in the MX department. When it comes to the Enduro tests they give praise to the KTMs, but MX still seems biased towards the Japanese bikes.

 

[pumpkinpower]

Ever seen them test a bike or product that didn't get "rave" reviews? Hard to ascribe much credibility after some glowing report about wooden spoke wheels or similar. Then there's the whole Cannondale Bike-of-the-Year debacle; simply describe a bike as having all the desirable attributes, promise to build it, and take home the prize. If only the local enduro series awarded points based on my description of my race...

 

[efivecoat]

Originally posted by pumpkinpower

Ever seen them test a bike or product that didn't get "rave" reviews?

Good Point, but it's still one of the best dirt mags out there. After years on Japanese bikes, and being convinced that all KTM riders were just Euro snobs, I took the plunge and couldn't be happier! I'm not much of a motocrosser, but if it's good enough for McGrath, it's probably too good for me. And besides, have you EVER left your suspension stock? As far as I'm concerned, they all need a little suspension work to make them good...

 

[tigerowner]

Good Point, but it's still one of the best dirt mags out there. [/B]

Dirt rider one of the best mags?? Maybe 10 years ago when they actually had an article that was thought through and had editors that could write. Now the magazine looks more like Cosmo for dirt riders. They have five pages of ads to one page of very limited info. Remember when they had how to sections by Steve Hatch and other off road greats. My renewal of Dirt Rider has to be the biggest waste of $10 I have made in some time. As to why the KTMs never seem to win the MX tests could it be that they are set up better for euro motocross tracks that are more open and utilize the broad power of the KTM and Huskies better than the tight tracks of the US? Just a thought, anyone els have a thought about this?

 

[john1216]

Of course the mags are biased, but in some respects I do not fault them for it. When they include more exotic bikes in a shootout I wouldn't expect them to choose them as "winners."

For example... what good is it to the readers to learn that a nine thousand $ Vertamatti is the best bike in the shootout (hypothetical)?
When the reality is that most readers have no access to these bikes and couldn't afford it if they did.

All in all. I am just happy they will throw a TM, VOR, or Berg in their tests. In the end, they will allways choose among one of the big five manufactuers... if they can possibly get away with it.

However, it is amusing when one of the more exotic bikes clearly stands above the rest and in the end they choose the "catch all bike."

 

[Camstyn]

Yeah.. Or the only "fault" the bike has is having too stiff of a seat foam, so the bike is hopeless and comes in last place. :)

 

[cp380sx]

The truth is KTM's do handle differently than the jap bikes, especially in MX. They don't hold the inside line nearly as well and the bikes want to stand up in the berm. The suspension is also harsh compared to some of the better jap bikes. The stiff seats don't help at all.

All that being said, once acustomed to these quirks, the bikes are very competitive on the MX track. A softer seat with suspension revalving and springs can also make things better.

KTM is close, but the competition does have a slight edge in handling and suspension. When it comes to power it's another story.

 

[Patman]

Anybody find it ironic that all the mags seem to find the bottomless pockets to trick out a DRZ to twice it's MSRP but can't place a blue ribbon on one of the exotic Euro bikes because it's too spendy? Also isn't it odd that these guys praise the aftermarket companies for all their mods to take the problem areas out of various bikes but they rank the shootout based on stock bikes? :|

 

[IrishEKU]

Originally posted by Patman
Anybody find it ironic that all the mags seem to find the bottomless pockets to trick out a DRZ to twice it's MSRP but can't place a blue ribbon on one of the exotic Euro bikes because it's too spendy? Also isn't it odd that these guys praise the aftermarket companies for all their mods to take the problem areas out of various bikes but they rank the shootout based on stock bikes? :|

Good points Patman, add another to your list, that KTM's come from the factory with just about everything you'd want to add to a Jap bike short of a steering damper. Most of the add sales in bike mags are for add ons and hop ups available for the Jap bikes.

As for someones comments about the suspention setup I rode one this weekend that is as "bone stock" as a KTM can be and I am hooked. It was just right for me in the woods stuff that I like to ride. I think the only mods that were done to it where that the clip on the needle was moved a position or two and the jetting was leand out by one.

 

[cp380sx]

The magazines are focused on MX, not off-road. KTM's have been traditionally designed for off-road and they have a huge following there. MX is a totally different world. If you don't ride MX then you have no basis for criticizing the magazines review's of KTM suspension and handling with regard to that enviroment.

KTM is trying hard to improve their MX performance but it's not the best stock suspension and handling on the MX track yet. Until it gets better, KTM will takes it's lumps in the magazine tests.

 

[ktm033]

i think until its advertising budget with the magazines reaches what the japanese companies spend KTM will continue to take its lumps....

 

[Anssi]

I have to agree with cp380sx. I ride a -02 520 SX, and suspension-wise it's not there yet compared to the jap bikes (YZ250, YZ426F, CRF450 tested). I think I'm going back to jap 250s (2s) next (the 450s are just too tame no matter how planted).

 

[TTR Dave]

Think about this for a minute.... How many of the magazine editors, test riders etc have relatives who work for XYZ motorcycle company. Case in point, DR's Ken Faught has Mel Harris (Suzuki) as a relative. So is he going to say there bikes stink??? Not if he wants his kids to get the Suzuki transporter for show and tell at school again....
My two cents.

 

[cp380sx]

Originally posted by TTR Dave
Case in point, DR's Ken Faught has Mel Harris (Suzuki) as a relative. So is he going to say there bikes stink???

How long has it been since Suzuki won a Dirt Rider shootout?

 

[TM-Frank]

Who cares for magzine shootouts?
They are printed to entertain you while sitting on the WC, but as help in a buying decision they are generally of zero value.
Read them carefully and you'll notice that the difference between the winner and the loser is only minor details. How should it be elsewise? There are no really bad bikes on the market anymore.
And by the way, in opposite to the magazine guys I am not switching bikes three times a day. I buy a bike, adapt to its characteristics and as long as it is reliable and I get my parts on time, this bike is my personal shootout-winner! And I really don't care if anyone thinks that another bike turns better.

 

[*william*]

Hey 'boy. I was gonna start raggin on the latest Motocross Action mag. I just had to get it because it was all over the YZ450. Anyhoo, I go to read the many-page spread, the cover story for this edition, and within 4 pages I find 5 typos. I work in publishing so it drives me bananas, but it also says something about the time and care they put into the piece. Or not. And it's not even spellcheck putting a right word in the wrong place, it's no proofreading. Hell, they could pay me to be a proofreader!

Jeeze. :|

 

[firecracker22]

Remember who pays the bills for the magazines . . . it is not the subscribers, they are only a drop in the bucket. It's the advertisers. There is a fine line there and many mags cross it but neither can they piss off and alienate their advertisers with their advertising dollars. Maybe it's not fair reporting but what is? There is bias in every story we read, we just like better the ones that happen to be biased in a way we like. That said, I don't read MXA or DB very often. It's TWMX and RacerX at the top of my list.

I don't read bike shootouts anyway. Those guys all ride pretty much at ONE track . . . Glen Helen. Glen Helen is not indicative of the standard mx track, if there is one. It is hardpack and high speed. So all the bike setup is for those conditions.

Just my .02 . . . every bike shootout thread ends up this way. If we keep going this'll be sent to the flame board. Oh well.

 

[Patman]

I TOTALLY agree with TM-Frank, the differences between any of the bikes in stock form is so small that anybody this side of a SX/MX Pro starting gate most likly couldn't tell much difference. The magazines often play up the differences because it makes them seem like they are more in tune. Like with any bike, you find something you like and then adapt both it and yourself to each other. There is no perfect bike for every rider.

Oh and I guess the KTM suspension is THAT bad if McGrath is going to be a pumpkin rider :)

 

[chadk01]

I second Patman and TM-Frank's response. I would be happy with any new bike as long as the color suited me. I think the biggest thing we as mortals will be looking at "right now" is the 2 stroke/ 4 stroke decision. Which to me boils down to, "Does the power delivery of a 4 stroke play into my riding style better than a 2?" Does it really matter if its a orage thumper, red, blue for me, no. If I was to buy a new bike today I would consider:
1.) 4 stoke or 2 stroke.
2.) Access to dealer.
3.) Favorite color.

I certainly would not be reading up on the latest shoot-out before heading off to the dealer.

my .02

 

[biglou]

Overall I agree with Pantsman, TM-Frank and Chad. I still like to read the shootouts/reviews and take the info for what it's worth. Keeping in mind that impression is a very subjective thing. I still like to think that I can gain some insight based upon what the different test riders in the mags say based upon their riding style, experience and size/weight. That, along with some test rides of my own lets me learn what they are talking about when they describe a certain characteristic of a bike and whether or not I like that trait. I would NEVER let a mag be my sole source for determining which bike to buy. I also wholeheartedly agree with Chad that for me, and just me, that it is almost a matter of "What is my favorite color?" when buying a new bike. It's that new bike lust and bumming rides on other people's bikes that tells me what my next bike will or won't be based upon my own experiences on those test rides. As an example, there is a VERY popular big fourstroke that I really, REALLY wanted to like. But after riding a couple of them, I have no desire to ever own one now, and quite frankly, I don't know how the fast guys make them go so fast. Again, it is obviously just my own subjective opinion, but this particular bike just won't work for me. Will it work for you? Maybe, even though it is at the bottom of my shootout list! :)

 

[geremacheks]

Good points Patman and cp380sx.

Actually KTM has been doing real well over the years in the mag shootouts. But it has been the offroad bikes, as said earlier. But their MX bikes are coming on strong of late in these shootouts too. I can see them placing high in these shootouts real soon.

I actually bought a bike because of test and shootout results of the Mags. I really didn't have many other resources than these tests. (Hadn't discovered on-line informtion yet) There were no bikes around or bike dealers. If you recall, the KTM off road two stroke bikes from 1998 on had teriffic tests in the magazines. Particularly the EXC 200. When I finally got to try a 2000 model out (used), 98% of the things the bike tests stated I found out to be true. I bought the bike. And the little 200 amazes me even more now. I, for one, will go on reading these bike tests and shootouts carefully. They can be very informative, but sometimes you need to know how to read inbetween the lines, too.

 

[johnpace2]

It's not that KTM suspension is bad for MX, the others are just better stock.

I had an 00 CR 125 and it had much better suspension than my 02 KTM 125SX. I got it revalved and it is much improved. Probably not perfect, but now it's not harsh and unforgiving like it used to be.

 

[Nverfastenuf]

Overall, alot of good points. It is tough to please all the people all the time. Look at the 525EXC test. It got an awesome evaluation. Does that make the test biased. I don't think so :thumb:. Human nature, at times, lends itself to find fault with others opinions that differntiate with ones own conclusions. This, in itself, is not a bad thing if kept in check. I think if one keeps things in perspective, such as has been posted in this thread, one can actually learn from these tests. Because it is difficult to actually ride all the the different bikes back to back,(most of us don't have "that" luxury), we must make decisions based on others findings. After all, how many of us are asking questions on this forum day in and day out, requesting others opinions??? And besides, if we all rode the same brand, it would be awfully boring wouldn't it??? Nobody to give a hard time. ;)