Will the WR450/KTM 450/525EXC do woods well?

[ksnowdog]

I've done a search or 3 here and haven't found exactly what I'm hoping for :)

I'm new bike shopping. I ride mostly woods, race hare scrambles on occasion and a small amount of MX. I am currently on a piped/jetted 95 KDX200. I am wanting to get/build a woods bike that can pull double duty for hare scrambles and street motard. I plan on doing a dual sport legal kit with some 17 inch super moto hubs/rims with street only tires for a quick change over.

I love my KDX, but the suspenders are getting tired on it and it's not a good choice for me for dual duty.

That has me needing a big bore (relatively) engine (450 plus), 4-stroke, want e-start, has to capable of decent road speeds AND still ride good in the woods :thumb: I know I can't have it all :whiner: , but how close can I come? I can sacrafice some street performance and I know it'll do terrible on the highway. If I want to hit mach 1, I 'll ride my streetbike. I'll mostly terrorize the smaller roads and not the highway with this bike, but I want it to handle in the woods.

I am very comfortable off-road on 2 stroke power/wheel-spin. My streetbike is a modded Kaw ZX11, so I am comfortable with big hp too.

I narrowed it down to the WR 450 Yami, due to the motor, trans and e-start. But I have heard it is a little heavy and clumsy in the tight woods, plus appearantly may have a woodruff key problem. I checked it out at the dealership and the weight didn't seem too bad, felt like the extra weight was up high in it though. It was tall, but I have a long inseam, it FELT like it was 3-4 inches taller than my KDX.

But then I thought of the KTM 450/525 EXC. I have heard they don't feel as heavy as the WR, but they weigh more :eek: .

I ruled out any other bikes based on weight and power.

Are these competent woods bikes to race? I am sure they ride nice, but do they ride fast or as fast in the tight stuff like my KDX does? What should I expect. I don't really have the money to keep the KDX and get a new bike :|

I don't want to start a 'mine is better than yours' thread, but any experience you have with either bike in the woods would be greatly appreciated.

PS - I don't really care for the orange, would definately need to change the color on the KTM to black!

 

[ksnowdog]

Anyone? :worship:

 

[Barbarian]

I think any of them would be good for your application. They want be quite as light and flickable feeling as your kdx was in the tight woods, but they will be better elsewhere.
I think that the differences between the KTM and Wr will be small, but KTM's are supposed to feel slightly lighter. You'd have to ride them a lot back to back to be sure of which is best for you.

 

[CR Swade]

The differences between WR and KTM are friggin huge. My WR450 was called the S.S. Yamabarge. It was the most heavy feeling, ill-handling motorcycle I have ever had the displeasure of owning. Nobody in our group liked riding it...at all. We all own a variety of bikes, KTM's ,KX's, CR's, YZF's, RM's and all of these bikes work good but just have different feel. That WR had no good qualities at all. Forks were harsh for woods (decent for MX), incredibly heavy and heavy feeling, engine had too much engine braking w/ weird gaps in gearing (particularly 2nd to 3rd), ackward seating/standing position, the electric starter barely worked w/ fresh battery and when it did you had to be careful not to let it backfire (shearing teh woodruff key and leaving you stranded) which wasn't good as it was very prone to stalling.

But hey maybe it was just our group of guys...

My KTM 525 was fun but not near as nimble as my KTM450

Buy the KTM450 it feels light years ahead of that WR450 pig. Mine actually is more flickable in the woods than my CR250 was...they are like any other bike in that any of them just need careful set-up. Its just that the Katoom set-up feels so much better than the wr set-up.

 

[ksnowdog]

Thanks for the help, if anyone else has anything to add, PLEASE let me know.

Swade,
I'm in KC too :yeehaw: So, you'd recommend the 450 over the 525? Have you ridden a KDX? How would it compare? I love my KDX in the woods, but a street 2-smoke wouldn't be good for me. The KTM is much pricier than the WR, which is why I put the WR ahead, but I haven't seen/read too many peeps happy with the WR :think: I thought I heard the top 2 gears in the KTM were plastic and might not be able to handle street grip? Did you get yours at Letko?
I mainly ride at Perry, Merwin, Carbondale or Deepwater. Loved riding at Milford when I raced there this fall, but too far for just a day trip.

Thanks again for the replies :thumb:

 

[CR Swade]

Well...now that I think about it, if I was just trail riding and hitting the street every now and then, I would probably go w/ the 525. For playing you just can't beat the extra ponies that the 525 gives you. For racing though, the 450 is much better. My 525 would fatigue me more in a race setting whereas the 450 I can just concentrate on flowing rather than holding on. I noticed you said that you raced so I would probably lean towards the 450 (mine is actually a 400 w/ the 450 kit in it).

Yanno we were just BSing this topic the other day. We have some killer singletrack by my house and after riding I noticed that the KDX and KTM share a strikingly similar layout/frame stance. The KDX is a quick turning, darting type bike. The KTM is also but seems a bunch more receptive to rear-wheel brake slide type directional changes. I think the KTM is kind of a modern version of the venerable little KDX...much more muscle, same quick darting type handling bu twill lay over and shred in the loamy woods too. Anybody that says KTM's can't turn either can't turn or hasn't set it up right. I came off of a CR250 before the 525 and both the 525 and 450 out-handle my 01 CR

A ton of guys are D/S these things so short trips aren't any biggie, plus the plastic gear thing on the production bike I don't think is accurate. The biggest concern that KTM had initially was small oil capacity. Plus w/ no cush hub on the rear, long hauls on a dirt bike can cause problems.

Yeah I frequent Letko a bit, I really enjoy talking w/ Jim L. quite a bit and I also do a bunch of business w/ Cycle Zone in Topeka. As far as riding, I'm about 15 minutes from Perry, we hit Milford occasionally, try to race all of the Forward Motion stuff (plus a buddy of mine and I are promoting a race in September @ Hamilton,Mo) and we road trip quite a bit (Chadwick and White Rock) as well as avoid Deepwater at all costs.

If you want to get in on the local KC riding scene go to KCRiders@yahoogroups.com and start following what trips are going on when. This weekend is White Rock in Arkansas. You can e-mail me anytime if you are wanting ot know what is going on also. Nice talking w/ you!

 

[Nordegg]

ksnowdog,

I found the Yamaha and the KTM to be quite different in feel. The specs say the WR is lighter, but every magazine I've seen that weighed them found the EXC lighter. On top of that the EXC carries the weight lower, has a lower seat height (but more ground clearance), and narrower profile. Adds up to a MUCH lighter feel. The KTM costs more intially but as has been argued to death, comes with excellent bars, brakes, hydraulic clutch, o-ring chain etc, etc: more bang for the buck if you like to personalize.

The "weak" high gears seem to be a non-issue: I'm on a couple of KTM chat rooms and they are never quoted as an actual problem. The concern arose from an early KTM tech release suggesting you avoid long term hard use of those gears.

The EXC is designed as a woods bike, and is great at it. 525 vs. 450? Depends on whether you like to concentrate on riding well, or hanging on. Most riders would probably be faster on the 450, but many of us like the adrenalin rush (modified ZX11? then go for the 525). See if you can ride a Yamaha and a KTM, they feel so different one is bound to appeal to you more.

 

[RAH RAH]

your wasting your time comparing a wr to a ktm. I ride a GG and would still never do such a thing. honestly I thought that the wr would be a dream come true but the only dream is yamaha dreamin that this bike would compete in an enduro. its a true slug when you want to change directions. there is nothing i can say good about the bike. so on to the ktm. these guys have given you a good overview of whats really in store for you when you make the change. you will not go away unhappy. a stock ktm is a good machine. when you properly set them up they just get even better. the best trick that Ive found on the 525 to bringing down the front end anytime you give it gas was to drop a tooth on the front sprocket (gixxer 1300style) it just makes holding on a lot easier. In the tight stuff when you come around a tight corner and release the clutch you will release the front wheel if you dont just remain standing by the tree you just turned around. its like these babies want to leave you right in your tracks but the bike could keep goin. you must manhandle these babies stock. once you get it dialled you will enjoy it a lot more.
the 450 would be for those that are coming from a 250 2st adn that is a comparison of how much power output that they have. they are way easier to use to their fullest pottential than what a 525 is. Im a ex street biker myself adn if you want a rush on the dirt like you get on the street go with the big one. if you dont mind reeming one a little more often go with the 450. id personnally choose the 525 just b/c if i want more it does have it. they both turn days better than the wr. the wr is more comparible to the duke or old Lc4 machines.
your in the right ballpark just kick the wr for the field goal while the others try to reach the other end of the field
dont let cr swade swade you. he has that 450 kit b/c the 400 wasnt enough. I sorta feel that way about the 450. a 470 is what I dream about. crs 450 seems stronger through the mid than the 450 ive ridden. that made me enjoy his more than i have any other. hell let you ride his and that will give you a good determination.
but dont say I didnt warn you about your new 450 not having as much on the bottom as the kitted one though
happy hunting

 

[ksnowdog]

Thanks for the info :worship:

I stopped by the KTM dealer last weekend, I believe I'll be getting the 525 :laugh: :thumb:
I believe the orange pumpkin (no offense, if you're fond of orange) will be coming home in all black tho'! Price-wise it's more than I want to spend, but I think I'll be getting exactly what I want! I'll be picking up some wide supermoto rims and other misc. parts, switches, etc for the road conversion.

On the showroom floor they felt about the same weight, but the KTM's weight felt much lower in the bike. I talked with a couple of peeps who race them in hare-scrambles and decided I'll be happier with the 525.

CRSwade - "The KTM is also but seems a bunch more receptive to rear-wheel brake slide type directional changes. "
That is exactly how I prefer to steer anyway!

Thanks for the info. Too bad Kawazuki hasn't made an attempt to penetrate this market yet (I don't really consider the DRZ or XR in this catagory of bikes)...oh well...

 

[RAH RAH]

ohh yeah ive been seing a 525 with supermotards from the factory


you want to check into it now b/c you can sure be sorry later!!! not with your decision just with not haning to spend as much to get to ride the streets. dirt rider was good for something but only a portion of a page.

 

[woodsy]

"Thanks for the info. Too bad Kawazuki hasn't made an attempt to penetrate this market yet (I don't really consider the DRZ or XR in this catagory of bikes)...oh well..."

To bad Kawasaki didnt tell my buddy Larry that, he took his KX500 - strapped on his street tires and took it to the drag strip - another guy on his R-1 Yamaha COULDNT get away from it and this other guy is ALWAYS a contender (top 3) in the National Hillclimb circuit (HE CAN RIDE!!)!!! And they make AWESOME D/S bikes too, alot like the KTM though - you have to set it up right but, setup correctly - they FLY!! Of course, the mighty KX dont have no magic button so its a little outdated but, then again, sometimes it's more the rider then the ridden....

Have fun on your new bike!!! Do the "sundance" for Michigan will you guys? We need to shake some snow!!