144 or 250F?

[trial_07]

1) your physical size : 6'1'' 160 pounds
2) How physical / aggressive are you ? Aggressive, but very smooth.
3) what do you plan to ride- MX/SX tracks, woods, fields with friends or ????? MX
4) Do you have any riding experience? Yes, I've been riding since I'm 5. I competed in observed trials when I was 14 and 15. Started motocross at 16. I've been racing for two years now, and plan to move up to intermediate (B) class this year.
5) Do you think you will race ? Yes
6) Are you mechanically inclined and will you be doing your own bike work? I will be doing all the work.
7) Do YOU have a preferance to a brand/ motor choice (2 or 4 stroke)? I love Honda CRF's, I think I really improved with my bike, but I need a new one, and it has to go. I really enjoy riding two strokes, they're so much fun.
8) Do you have a dealer close by your home that you might use and what brand(s) does he carry? Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki. But can get all brand parts easily.
9) How much ($) do you plan to spend on a bike? I want a new one. I'd like a 2008 leftover if I can save some money.
10) Do you live in California? No.
11) Your age? 19
12) anything else that you think would help form an opinion

I tried a 125 the other day at the track, and really had lots of fun riding it. I could be mistaken, but I think I was as fast as on my 250F. I consider purchasing a 2009 YZ 125. I'd send the cylinder to Eric before its very first ride to have it modded to 144. The thing is I ride and race a lot. Would a 144 cost more maintenance-wise than a 250F? I've heard different opinions regarding this. One thing I know for sure is lots of money went into keeping the valve train in order this year on my CRF. And can a 144 compete with a 250F on the track, assuming both riders are equal? I know I'm fast on 250F, but really have more fun on a 125. I'd hate buying the 2-stroke and realize at the first race that I can't keep up with 250F's on straights or uphills. That would mean a season thrown into the garbage. I hope I didn't confuse everybody. Thanks for your opinion!

Another thing, I got some good deals at a Yamaha dealer (really good deals). I tried a 2008 YZ250F, though, and really disliked the handling. Maybe I wasn't used to the bars on the bike, but something just didn't feel right in corners. Also I felt the motor wasn't pulling like my CRF. I felt it had lots of bottom end, but not so much at mid and top. I've heard they're the most reliable 250F's though, and that is a huge plus.

 

[Chili]

The 144 can compete, heck a 125 can compete but you are going to have to work harder to go as fast as an equal rider on a 250F.

I tried for several years to get my son to go blue for a 250F and he says maybe once they turn better than a school bus he'd consider it, he's still waiting :yikes:

 

[trial_07]

I tried for several years to get my son to go blue for a 250F and he says maybe once they turn better than a school bus he'd consider it, he's still waiting :yikes:

:rotfl: The reviews I've read on the blue 09 250F says it's getting there. You just got to find the right bar position, and adjust to the correct sag. They say it's more powerful than the 08 also, mainly because of the pipe mods.

Regarding maintenance, is a 144 cheaper or more expensive than a 250F?

 

[Chili]

Someone else is going to have to answer that one, we've never owned a 144. You know what you spent to maintain your 250F last year, check that against the cost of a couple of top ends for the 144 and you should have a pretty good idea.

 

[trial_07]

A couple of top ends mean what? I never replaced the top ends on my CRF in the service limits, but I know a 2 stroke can't be stretched like that. So that would mean 3 or 4 top ends I guess?

 

[Chili]

well it depends on how many hours you are planning on putting on it. I'd expect to start the season fresh and then put in new rings 1/4 of the way through the year. At the halfway point of my season I'd do the top end and then a new set of rings again at the 3/4 of the season mark. I'd be looking to budget $400-500 for the top end for the season. But if you didn't maintain your 250F to those standards you likely won't do it with the 144 either.

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

Even if YOU call the maintenance even, the 144 is lighter feeling and more fun! And it will teach you to be a better racer. Did you rering the f at 15 hours? I believe a stock 125 is about the same, less the valve train. Stupid fim still handi caps? Bummer. Are you going to be going for the gold, race gas or pump gas? Even down here in the states, I really wish they had a geezers class on the 125's? I still love riding one more than any other bike, more fun!

 

[trial_07]

What I meant is that I didn't change the piston and rings every 20 hours on the F. But I believe a top end is cheaper for a 144 and it is very easy to do. I will follow the service limits.

Last nice two stroke I had ran with 50:50 pump gas and av gas, but that was a trial bike. I don't know if that's a good mix. One thing for sure is I can't afford any VP fuel. What do you recommend?

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

If you can not afford vp, you surely will not be able to afford Firepower! Tell Eric to set it to pump gas. Go to the busiest, and wealthiest area to buy fuel. They do not have high octane pump fuel up there? Like above 100? Running straight torco would be way better than mixing av and anything. If you can get race pump fuel, it should be a lot cheaper than vp. Unless I had an airplane, no way to av gas!

 

[_JOE_]

Usually octane requirement is directly related to compression. That can be tuned when the head mods are done with the over-bore. Most engines can be built to run fine on 93 pump gas. You will give up a little peak performance due to lower compression though.

 

[trial_07]

Best I have up here is 91 pump gas. I would need some octane booster I guess? Anyone with 144 experiences?

 

[Rich Rohrich]

You can have a 144 built to run on pump gas but you will sacrifice a good chunk of performance as a result. Octane boosters are not a reliable way to feed a high performance two-stroke. You can't depend on the octane distribution along the distillation curve when you are propping up bad fuel with over the counter chemicals.

 

[XRpredator]

Best I have up here is 91 pump gas. I would need some octane booster I guess? Anyone with 144 experiences?

suck it up and buy race gas.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

suck it up and buy race gas.

... or stick with a four-stroke. ;)

 

[trial_07]

Ok, so what race gas do you recommend? And approximately how much does it cost? I looked over the Vp website and there are lots of options for motocross, 2 strokes. Now high comp, or low comp? Leaded or unleaded? Can I mix with pump gas or not? I just don't know where to start from. Thanks for the replies!

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Once you decide on an engine specification then you should contact the fuel company and ask their technical people what they recommend.

 

[_JOE_]

Lots of people around here use c12 or u4/4.2. Don't mix with pump fuel.

 

[trial_07]

Am I mistaken or a 5 gallon can of VP C12 is 40.00$? If that's the case, it really is cheaper than I expected. Rich, I can mix C12 with av gas right?

 

[Chili]

If you can find C12 for $40 you are doing really well, last time I priced it here a few years ago it was over $60 for 5 gallons.

 

[trial_07]

Well in that case I pretty much should forget riding a two stroke next year. :( The prices I found were from forums, guys in the US. How much less powerful is a 144 modded to run on pump gas? Could I cover the loss with an aftermarket exhaust and pipe, or reed valves, or both?

 

[Chili]

Let's be realistic, what class are you running? If you are running below the Pro class at a local level you can compete on a bone stock 125. Are you at a disadvantage, sure but you have to deicde if you're the next RC or racing for fun. If you don't feel like lining up with a handicap stay on the 4 stroke.

This kid won two Junior class titles this spring on a 2 stroke KTM 144 and finished top 5 in Intermediate on the same bike in the fall.

We had another guy win 2 titles this fall in the Junior class on a stock bore KX125 with head mods and race fuel. He plans to run the same setup in Intermediate next season.

The bottom line is a bone stock 125 is likely capable of going faster than you've ever gone on a track at any point in your life, it may not be the easiest ride but it's pointless to worry that you may have lost 1.5 HP because you opted to run it on pump until you can make that bike scream for mercy.

 

[trial_07]

I plan on running the intermediate class next season. Thanks for your post Chili, it got me thinking. Of course the main reason why I ride and go at the races is to have some fun, for sure; however, I'd like to make to the pro class, be able to compete at the Olympic stadium, and try to qualify for the nationals. I'm not saying I can do this on a 125, if I ever get there at all. What I'm asking is would it be a mistake if I run the next season on a 125? In other words, can I become a better rider on a 125 as much as I can on a 250F? Maintenance cost is also a huge factor for me. 1.5 HP is nothing, if that is the only difference between a bike set up for pump gas vs another one for race gas.

 

[Chili]

If you are moving up to Intermediate with designs on making it to Pro stay on the 250F. Both guys I cited as examples are quick as heck but there is no doubt they are at a disadvantage. One is on 2 strokes simply because he loves screaming a 125 and could not care less that he is at a disadvantage, the other because they can afford a 144 and a 250 2 stroke without the fear of a 4 stroke failure while keeping two bikes running.

BTW the 1.5 HP is simply a number pulled out of my backside for example purposes and not a number you should use to make a final decision as to the benefits of race gas versus pump.

 

[trial_07]

I hear you. It's a tough decision, luckily I have all winter to think about it.

 

[Chili]

Could always get a Zook and stick around Junior another year and use contingency to pay the parts bills.

http://cws.suzuki.ca/CMS/publish/Data/Media/MA-06-08E.pdf