geremacheks

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Feb 14, 2002
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Are we going to see some four stroke trial bikes for 2004?

How about a Honda four stroke trials bike? Or would that be a Montesa/Honda four stroke?

And will they be engineered to be relatively light motors as are the new Japanese MX four stroke motors?
 

Moteaux

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I can't find the link here at work, but I read about some future four stroke trials bikes. I did find this link http://www.trials.co.uk/bikes/prototypes/protobikes.html . It was interesting to me that the guy transformed his 2 stroke into a four stroke. The little 125 featured is pretty sweet looking too.

I will keep looking to see if I can find the link that I saw at home last night.

Randy
 
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TheJunkMan

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THAT IS SWEET!! even though I am a die hard 2 stroker I realize it is enevitable. but I think it will be 10 years before a "cometitive" 4 stroke machine will be used by a top rider. But definately looks like a good start for someone looking for an intro level trials bike that is low maintenance.
 

geremacheks

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Yes, Sweet.

Tank looks like it might have some capacity on the 125. That black thing on the rear fender is called a seat. :cool:

Wonder why they didn't route the head pipe up higher? Where's the 250?
 
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Patman

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Expect most of the top trial riders to be on a 4T well before 10 years! It's getting mandated in Europe so I'd say it's close to 3 years tops. Montesa made some noise about a '04 as did Scorpa but I think '05 is more realistic. What a concidence they are both tied to deep pockets that have already developed good 4T off-road programs. I suspect it will not be easy for Beta, Sherco & to a lesser extent GasGas.
 

Moteaux

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Patman,

When I was looking for the 4 stroke link earlier today, I think I read something about our friends across the pond having to ride 4-Ts in 2005. Have you heard anything about that?
 

Patman

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Yup, that's what I was referring to.
 

TheJunkMan

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Looks like the ttr 125 motor to me I hope the power delivery is no the same though (slow) and the only real problem i see right now is that header pipe getting masshed closed on the rocks. i still think it will need a lot of developement to have that quick power like the shercos and betas, where i ride the scorpa competion model is not very popular. Our club is primarily GG then Shercos then TY250/350 monos then Betas then RLs and a few TL125s. But I salute their efforts for pushing the envelope. someone has to do it.
 

wayneg

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I think that the Scorpa is really aiming at the Cluman/Sportsman market with the 125, and don't seriously think that this bike would really suit 10' splatters. Apparently there is a 180cc kit going to be available for the Scorpa which could possibly put the machine into the Intermediate class. So its going to take a fair bit of development before we see the four strokes capable of the sorts of things that the two strokes are currently capable of.

I can see the point of the little four strokes for the schoolboy classes such as they have in the UK (8 to 14 years old), and also that these bikes would have enough performance for a rider at my level, but think that they need to go big with capacity for the more skilled riders before they would sell in any numbers.
 

Patman

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I believe that when the F.I.M. met in 2002 they made the following decisions:

"Classes for Trial World Championship and FIM Junior Cup

As from 1.1.2004: 125cc class, 16-18 years old with driving licence, 4 stroke up to 125cc, minimum weight 70 kg. Open Class, over 18 years old with driving licence, 2 stoke up to 250cc and 4 stroke up to 450cc, minimum weight 75 kg.

Open class as from 1.1.2005: only 4-stroke up to 450 cc, minimum weight 75 kg."


I have not seen any reversal of the decision but that does not mean it has not occured.
 

TheJunkMan

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really how many people are going to buy these things right off the bat? I am saying that it is going to take a while for thumper trials bike to be accepted buy the general public. especially out here in the boone-doks hell most people here still have 2 stroke deisel engines in there tractors..lol
 

JTT

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Aug 25, 2000
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Originally posted by Patman
I suspect it will not be easy for Beta, Sherco & to a lesser extent GasGas.

Have you seen the newly released Sherco 450 4S Enduro? Step one complete. Of course, GasGas already has a 4S enduro too.

It will be interesting to see the technology that comes with this new 4S rule. The little Scorpa is cute, but I agree with Wayne, can't see it launching those big steps at a World round. :eek:

There is also a rumour that GasGas is going to use the bottom end of the present Pros with an electrically valved 4S top end.

You also have to wonder just how much R&D money that the likes of Honda and Yamaha are going to put into developing a motor that will likely be very narrow application...maybe lots, maybe just reworked TTR and XR engines :think:

Think I'll be holding onto my 2S for a while yet, but the new 4S should be interesting at least.
 

Patman

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I don't doubt that the smaller companies can do it and are even looking to off-road products in their current lineup but like you point out the development dollars could be huge and to Honda & Yamaha a few million is a much small percentage of their bottom line. Especially when HRC has saved dollars for several years by tweaking the current 315R. I have a sneakin suspicion that Honda will base theirs off the CRF250R but might even scale the head back to a 2 valve design to save precious space? Yamaha is so enamored with multi valves I don't even what to guess what they might do. There has been some successful development of 4T's based on the Monty's engine that look interesting so who knows, not me for sure. All I do know is that the top riders in the world will be on 4 strokes in '05 unless a revision is adopted which I thought is what JunkMan was referring to originally. I suspect it would be 2007 before they really catch on in the states with the local level riders.
 

JTT

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Your right on the 2005 date Pat, as rediculous as it is. That really pushes up the deadline for the manufacturers. I hope your right on the development...I'd hate to see things go backwards for the sake of "the treehuggers".

I don't think it will take much time to catch on to the "mainstream" market though, just look at the MX market and how fast 4S caught on (of course they also have the benefit of the massive marketing machine...the magazine publishers...bleat, bleat, 4 stokes are best, bleat, bleat).
 

wayneg

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That the problem its not even for the tree huggers - a few trials bikes has no real effect on pollution compared to the 50 million two stroke scooters in europe. Its just the FIM doing a bit of politics.....

It doesn't matter as I've set my sights on a 03 or 04 Beta, and I expect to have it for quite some time afterwards. I might even spring for a full 250cc - it getting scary when you combine my exceptional talents with a bit of power :flame: The local Beta distributor will be rubbing his hands in glee - lots of $$ to be made in replacement plastic.
 

Patman

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To strange Wayne :| I too have developed a lust for an '04 Beta 250.
 

TheJunkMan

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This is an excelent disscusion I had never thought of some of the engine developemental dollars that would be spent on a nitch market like ours. I just hope they keep on makin' the replacement pistons and rings for my GG as I do not buy bike yearly like some people do. Although the new sherco's are really quick they get me into trouble :)
 

JTT

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I wouldn't worry, as I am sure they will continue making 2S in some form for a few years yet ;) Just because the World guys have to ride 4S in 2005, doesn't mean the rest of us have to submit quite yet.

LONG LIVE PREMIX! :yeehaw:
 

Patman

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I think we're a nitch market in the states but in Europe I suspect the market is much bigger as they have more events, bigger events and not to mention the indoor series. I agree that the fire will catch pretty quick just like the MX market did with the YZF. While I really like my 315R I'm also REALLY liking the power delivery and spread of my Gorr-Rorich'ed XR284 A LOT! So while I won't be the first to the 4T trials gig I plan to jump when the waters look good.
 

wayneg

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I wonder whether the FIM will do a u-turn as they sort have done with the rules?? They seem to make these lofty decisions based on european politics and not really on whether its a good idea or not. They seemed to have completely cocked up the rules over the last few years, with different rules being applied to different countries and clubs, which is all very confusing for everybody. I'll bet that if the four strokes arrive and some compettitors have a huge advantage because of the amount of $$$ their factory can spend on development then there will be a moment of indecision, and lots of trouble.

I'm not against change, I just hope that the change is good for the sport in the long run......
 

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