Blue Hand grenades

[KWJams]

It is getting difficult to not say anything polite about how the Blue Thumper's seem to grenade so often.

My claim to fame is that my last place finish was enough to beat Ty Davis :eek: *Click here*

 

[Rich Rohrich]

It seems to me it proves that just because you are a fantastic rider like Ty Davis, it doesn't mean you know how to pick a good engine builder :)

A great claim to fame either way KW.

 

[KWJams]

Yep, Ty wrenches for himself from what I have read.
He sure has been snake-bit ever since he left Team Green though.

I beat all them DNF'rs like step children ;)

 

[spanky250]

Moof the blown YZ-F's I have seen have been big-bores. I don't think that particular engine design lends itself to overboring very well.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by spanky250
Moof the blown YZ-F's I have seen have been big-bores. I don't think that particular engine design lends itself to overboring very well.

It does if it's done CORRECTLY. Ty might want to leave the wrenching to someone else and concentrate on riding. He's obviously gifted at one of them :)

 

[penguin]

branding a bike as a grenade after it has been butchered by someone who doesn't know a piston ring from a hole in the ground is rather unfair. I have seen plenty of YZF big bores run an entire season of cross-country racing here in Texas with little more than oil and filter changes and a valve adjustment. And on stock motors the blue bikes have gone 2 complete seasons with no engine problems. I ride green bikes, but I admire and respect the Yammie 4-strokes. Spreading rumors without facts or based on isolated cases is a little irresponsible and not very smart.:p

 

[weimedog]

But those old KX500 keep tearing up the deserts...less stress on those big monsters I guess. Don't hear about anyone "boring" those KX500's out. LOL Sounds like for that type of riding they are the best bang per buck. Buy them. Race them. No big bore kits needed.:p


To that person saying the big bores are blowing up more...scan these posts for clutch problems. Looks like those 250 wonder bikes are toasting clutches. Heard of a couple locally that have.:scream:

 

[Hick]

Originally posted by weimedog
But those old KX500 keep tearing up the deserts...less stress on those big monsters I guess.

Ummm,

Dave Ondas DNFed too. What was he riding? Last year he was on a KX...

 

[KWJams]

So the brush I used was a little broad :)

Don't take me wrong on this, I am a fan of Ty's and have been impressed from day one with the Blue Thumpers.

But what is bugging me is the number of DNF's in the Desert.

It's not just Davis, last year at a National I found one of the Pearson brothers waiting for a tow rope, and it seems that every race I see more blue on the side of the trail than any other color.

Ty is a fair wrench and I imagine that he does have support.

My concern is, are they that delicate of a bike that they can not stand the rigors of a full blown desert race---or is it the demanding style that Ty rides with that is breaking them.

You would think that this kind of results would be a concern to the factory.:think

 

[smb_racing]

Antique class? :think

 

[weimedog]

It would be interesting to see statistics relative to the reliability of those blue wonder machines vs. those good old fashion KX500's. My bet is the those blue's would be green with envy.:p Simple has to be better...and I'm a 4-stroke fan. My bet is those big bore two strokes are less stressed than those tempramental 4-strokes trying to make big bore two stroke power.:scream:

 

[vetwfo'er]

When Ty tries to build a motor that will run at high speeds all day, trying to keep up with the 500's. It makes his motors very unreliable. He doesn't have this trouble in hare scramble type events. The 426 is not designed to be a open class desert machine.

We'll see how the new Yamaha 450 holds up and if he can get some more cubes out of it, without stressing the motor, to bad???

vetwfo'er

 

[weimedog]

The point is he has to BUILD a motor ...to keep up with KX500's. And the point is 50hp or 60hp from a KX is more reliable than 50 or 60hp from a YZ426. Desert racing is about reliabilty. :)

Its like those Suzuki DR's being BUILT to try and keep up with the rest of the GNCC crowd. Seems like when push comes to shove they went back to RM250's..true race bikes.

And the point is the both these bikes (The YZ and DR) are plateforms for selling aftermarket stuff so we are convinced to buy one instead of something like a KX by the main stream. These reliablity type races really mean something to the average joe. They point out potential reliability issues...

 

[will pattison]

isn't davis' bike poked to 460cc?

 

[PeteN]

Hey Weimedog, they only went back to RMs in the woods. Who's leading the WORCS series? That's right, the MX Kied on a DRZ! See you at Washougal in June! ;)

 

[Ramski]

I believe Ty Davis is only running the YZFs in Hare&Hound series. He rides the YZ250 in the GPs and does great. Talked to a local guy yesterday that knows Ty pretty well, and he also says that Ty does really push the bikes motor to its limits with the boring and his different Big Gun exhaust systems, but also does a lot of R&D for Yamaha.

Yes, those team Yoshimura DRZs are doing well in the WORCS. I got to watch the one here in Phoenix with Esposito winning. The problem is, no one can afford one. There is more trick parts on those DRZs than any bike I've ever seen. I would say those bikes could easily cost over $15,000.

The KX500 is now what the Huskies were back in the 70s and 80s in the desert. Huskies were the original desert sled. They had perhaps the longest wheel base ever that was perfect for long sand wash runs. Now the KX500 with its proven reliability is the king. I'm sure if my brother (tentbound) reads this he will agree. Hell, he just rode his 83 XC 500 Husky in a Hare&Hound last month. He does not want to admit it, but he did have the oldest bike out there.

The blue thumpers are great bikes, but in the desert they have the reliability that Kawasaki enjoyed in the desert during the late 70s and early to mid eighties.

 

[weimedog]

Exactly.

It's amusing to watch those yellow guys spend so much time and money trying to rationalize a perfectly good trail bike into a race bike. Any comparison with those YOSH suzuki's and ANY other brand is fun. Take any real race bike, YZ, KX, CR, RM, VOR, Husaberg, KTM, any of them and spend 10,000 dollars and THEN compare. Amazing how marketing can flex reality.

The point is guys like you and me can buy a KX500 and with a fraction of the effort and cost Ty puts into Yamaha's and Yoshimura puts into DR; have a competitive race bike in the desert. Thats also brutaly fast and reliable. Cheaper than a VOR, KTM, Husaberg, and YZF. What a deal!:D

 

[DualSportr]

Originally posted by weimedog
Exactly.

The point is guys like you and me can buy a KX500 and with a fraction of the effort and cost Ty puts into Yamaha's and Yoshimura puts into DR; have a competitive race bike in the desert. Thats also brutaly fast and reliable. Cheaper than a VOR, KTM, Husaberg, and YZF. What a deal!:D

You're right, it's good to know that a 10 year old design in an 8 year old frame is still the choice of champions in at least this one very specialized form of racing.

I'm sure Kawasaki is enjoying being able to rest on their laurels with this bike while all the other companies; VOR, KTM, Husaberg, Yamaha, Suzuki and Honda, are working their butts off to make new, exciting products that are lighter, faster and better.

Too bad all those other companies don't do what Kawasaki does. Man, we'd sure be loving it! All those 10 year-old beasts, dressed up in bold new graphics!

Sorry, but I'm glad there's all these other bikes around. Just think of it -- 5 years ago we wouldn't have even been having this discussion!

Thank god for Yamaha, Husaberg and all the other companies who are willing to shell out millions of dollars to build these new designs!

And more power to Ty, who is working on aftermarket designs that aren't paying off yet, but hopefully will in the future -- it's called research and development!

 

[weimedog]

Thank god for all those people more into image than results. Just because its (The KX) ten years old doesn't mean its a bad design. Just because its brand new doesn't make it a good design. What you are seeing is a good 10 year old design competitive with the newest and best motor design the rest can spend millions buying. Thats worth recognition.

I have nothing against advance. I try to support advance with my dollars when I can. But I do it understanding why. No image problem here. Buy what I want. Hopefully everyone has that opportunity.

The point of my entry is a celebration of those old big bore two strokes that got legislated out of the mainstream and how even now the latest and greatest hasn't put them out of business. In fact from a performance point of veiw they are still awesome. Put them in a late model frame...for certain types of riding they are untouchable. Whats offensive about that? Why does that get certain folks bent outa shape? Unless it pokes through the ego of some idiot who just figured out his wonder bike is ten HP down and is half as reliable as a 10 year old dinosaur!

And I am grateful to all those out there who spend their hard earned bucks on trends and fads defined by the larger marketing organizations. Its what funds advaces in technology. Its what keeps the aftermarket folks doing what they do. Its what keeps Ricky and the rest in business to put on a show and its also what funded the switch to four strokes. ( Before it got legislated by a higher authority than the AMA) But again I know why I spend my money this way. I don't do it because of peer pressure, magazines, marketing, or any of that fad derived crap. I buy what I feel like because motorcycles is pure recreation. Its supposed to be fun. And I am enjoying this four stroke revolution as much as I did the suspension revolution in the 70's. So I will fund the development with my dollars even as I appreciate the greatness of a past design.

 

[Ramski]

Your exactly right my friend. What is happing now is that 2-stroke technology reached its limit. Bike sales start dropping in early 90s, then along comes an old technology that companies see as a new product to get sales up again. Think about it. What has changed in 2-stroke technology over the last ten years? Honda came out with the new frame in 97. What else has there been? There was nothing really to look forward to from one year to the next. This 4-stroke revolution is kinda nice, since we are seeing some great new stuff every year and will continue to see more of it until, like the 2-stroke, it will reach its peak developement.

I have been looking for a new bike since November when I got back into this great sport and was set on a big Thumper like the Husky 570, Hus 550, or a KTM, but the day after comming home from a desert race I knew the green machine was the one. Also for the fact you can get them dirt cheap from people that bought them and didn't know how to ride them. For desert, nothing beats the KX or XR650s.

As much as I prefer the thumper sounds, I still like the big bore 2-strokes. Do you all remember when the 500cc was the premier event?

 

[KWJams]

Not to get of topic but there is a company that makes a perimeter frame for the KX500, there was a picture of it in a recent issue of Dirt Rider.


Vetwfo'er said;

When Ty tries to build a motor that will run at high speeds all day, trying to keep up with the 500's. It makes his motors very unreliable. He doesn't have this trouble in hare scramble type events. The 426 is not designed to be a open class desert machine.

You are probably 100% right-on, otherwise there would be some kind of grumbling from the factory you would think. :think

 

[PeteN]

I remember when 500s were the premier class, it was right before they figured out that 250s were faster around almost any MX track. Don't get me wrong, I love those open 2strs, but they aren't the best all around bike. They rule the desert, but are a handful in the woods, even if it's dry.

The DRZ is a competitive race bike even without spending big $, I beat lots of Yams and Bergs in harescrambles, SuperTT, and flat track. Mine just has a pipe and suspension work so far, but the tight turning and tractible power work wonders.

Weime, I would be careful using the word "reliability" sitting on a VOR, several of my friends have fragged them bad. And the parts availability and pricing is scary! It's an awesome bike though, I wish you good luck with it. Maybe it's just sour grapes cause I can't afford one. :think

 

[weimedog]

PeteN I hope you enjoy that DR as well. As far as the VOR is concerned its been a pleasent surprise. So far nothing at all has gone wrong. It has a lot of hard hours now. Even though I got it in Feb 2001. Nothing has loosened, fallen off, broken or failed in any way. As far as parts are concerned my local dealer stocks stuff and I was in Utah where ATK has a much larger stock than those old distributers did. They are trying to beat that old rap of parts availabilty and cost. Although I bought a spare air filter..it cost 22 bucks.

So far I have not had to modify or buy any aftermarket parts to get the performance I was looking for...its been a good deal. From some of the posts I have read here there are some who would love to have the reliability I've had so far. ( I also found out the crank and main bearings are different for 2001) Also my freinds VOR 503 enduro has also had nothing go wrong. He has more Enduro's on his than I have on mine. His is also a demo so it has a bunch of other folks trying to figure out its problems riding it. He had one guy run it at an enduro who owns a YZ250..and trying to wring out the VOR like his two stroke for 5 hours. Nothing broke.

Just started cleaning mine up for a enduro this weekend..and yet again the oil came out clean and without any shavings on the magnetic plug or filter....think this bike will be around for a while.:)

As far as cost? I didn't break the $7000 dollar mark yet on the total cost of that bike as I ride it now....so is it really all that expensive? I plan to get a pair of 400's late summer. :scream:

 

[CRF450Vet]

Yes you see a LOT of blue on the side of the trail waiting for a tow, and your share of green.What you don't see is RED>The xr650 is out lasting all of them, and knowing Honda the CRF450(which will be in my garage in October paid for in full) will be as reliable as the rest of there steeds.But of course i'm not bias at all;)

 

[holeshot]

define reliable

I've heard that the XR650R can develop a leaky countershaft sprocket seal, and all of the oil will leak out before it can be noticed. Result - motor and transmission locked into one solid mass. There have been other Honda foibles, if the more experienced would care to contribute.

I like Honda's too (my '97 CR250 was reliable), but please, let's not have selective memory.......