Combo: Trail/Trials Bike

[geremacheks]

Anybody got any good ideas on how to make the older XR 200R's, the 1981 to 83, and 1986 to 1991 (the long suspension bikes--not the newer ones) into a trials bike as well as a trail bike?

This is not for competition, just for fun trail riding and slow poking fun in the woods. I've had some of these old XR's, and the steering is terriffic (no radiators,no tight steering stops), they're super light, and they're four strokes. Throttle control is not real great, though. Ahh....but what a comfy "trials seat." So I'm wondering how to improve such a bike for slow trials action.

I'll consider other lightweight 4-stroke trailbikes, with normal seats for long rides, but I see few of them out there, especially the newer bikes. The new,smaller bikes are being targeted for beginners, with not the best suspension, and heavy e-starts. For instance, Honda's new XR 230 weighs more than the CRF 450. The XR 250 and 400 are heavyweights, and so is the new RFS EXC 250. I had a KLX and that was a bit lighter, but the old XR 200's are lighter still.

I'm open to ideas, but so far am biased towards the old XR 200R's. So what gear ratio's should I go for, and how to make it a better performer at slow, slow speeds. Thanks.

 

[Dave.Smith]

These used to kick butt in the Enduro class at Trials events.
http://www.tower.org/museum/bultaco/bultaco_1975_alpina.html
Basically a Sherpa T with high fender and comfy seat.

 

[Patman]

A "trials" bike is what you make it. No reason you can't take what you have and use it as is. Another option might be something like the Honda TLR200. It just depends how creative you want to get from moving the footpegs back to chopping the frame up.

 

[JTT]

I agree with Patman, in fact, at one of our little local trials events, a guy entered with a KDX :eek: ...it was not pretty, but he did finish the beginner class :cool:

The old Honda "Reflex" is a good example of what you are looking for. You might also look at the GasGas Pampera. There are several on here that have, or have had, Pamperas and give rave reviews. They're light, use a trials motor and have low seat height. If you go to the GasGas USA website, there is a small vid clip of Jeff Aaron doing some pretty crazy stuff on the little Pampera :worship:

 

[geremacheks]

Those old Honda trials bikes are not easy to find. Then you still have to put up with the seat, although that probably could be made better for long days trail riding. I had a chance to get a Reflex a couple of years ago, but for the price they wanted, I did without.

One of the reasons I'm thinking 4 stroke is the bike won't be used that much, (too many other bikes waiting to be used in the garage) and I don't think premix stores to well sitting in the tank. Seems like I would have to drain and refresh the fuel everytime I want to use it. Also, I'd like to ride the bike year round, in 20 degrees weather and up. Four strokes aren't so touchy about jetting, either, and I should be able to ride those temps without any changes. I ride those temps all the time on my little 79 XR 185, which is the closest thing to a trials bike I have right now--and it's fun. :yeehaw:

 

[wayneg]

The Pampera or Beta's new ALP would be a better bet as a general purpose trail bike which can still be used for having a go at the occasional trial. The ALP uses a 200cc electric start Suzuki motor, and is pretty much a trail bike that can be ridden in a trial - the seat is removable and the footpegs can be reversed which makes them much more comfortable for riding standing up. Have a look at http://www.betamotor.com and you may well get some ideas on how they have set it all up.

The other option is to buy a proper modern trials bike such as a Scorpa 'long ride' which has a larger fuel tank and all seat already fitted, and then modify the seat so that its more comfortable.

In NZ we have several people who ride trials bikes in enduros and all over the place. One in particular still rides his 321 GasGas in most of the big enduro events and does pretty well at it too. He has expanded his fuel tank a little bit, but compared to the MX bikes with their smalish fuel tanks, he still manages to get around each loop with out running out of fuel.

I have also been on a few longish trail rides on my Beta Rev3, and apart from having to carry extra fuel, have a great time. The only down side is that with limited suspension travel things can get a little scary occasionally if you try and get a bit too aggressive!!

 

[geremacheks]

Thanks for all the ideas.....

 

[TexKDX]

I have a '97 Beta Alp, street legal and plated, and will have a Reflex in 2 weeks. Fine trail bikes IF you learn how to ride trials and ride them like a trials bike. Brute force they don't understand; finesse they do.

The Alp and even my '01 315 are very fast on tighter trails if you ride them right. Line selection is critical, as is using the terrain to miss the big stuff. I can even go fast on the granite whoops around here as long as I ride the outside edges and get the timing right.

I say go for it! The new Alp with the Little Suzy motor is very capable and friendly for what you describe. The older 2 stroke Alp is a friggin' ROCKET in comparison though! That sucker has some HP with the trials motor and a real pipe on it.

 

[wayneg]

I did look very closely at a '95 2 stroke Beta Alp when I was first after a trials bike. If the bike (only two in the country!) hadn't been sold I probably would have bought it as it was exactly what I was looking for. The motor was from the Beta Gara and was I think a 260cc and meant to be a bit of a fireball compared with most trials motors, and the frame and running gear from the Beta Synt, with a slightly larger fuel tank, and a removable/replaceable seat unit. It sounds very similar to the one that you have Tex, and belonged to one of the owners of our local motorcycle magazine. He ran a test for the magazine on the bike and liked it so much that he bought it - recommendation enough I think!

 

[bultaco250]

I live in eastern Ohio and I've had a few trials bikes over the last 20 years. Including all three of the 70's era Yamahas (TY250, 175 & 80), a 1981 Bultaco 350 Sherpa T, '90 Beta Zero and a Honda Reflex. Sold a KDX220 so I could get a 2001 Sherco 2.9 last month and couldn't be happier. My advice is to go with what you want, first. Build an XR250 trialer. You can hardly go wrong. It'll be relatively cheap, easy to get parts for and a hoot to ride. Start by gearing it way down, 1 down tooth in front and 4 to 6 larger in back. Either buy trial bars or start by just rolling the stock bars forward till the ends stick up a bit. If you can, move the footpegs back an inch or two, along with the brake pedal. That'll make the front end lighter and easier to loft. Leave the shifter alone, then it'll be out of the way like a proper trials bike. Put some cheap aftermarket plastic trials fenders on. Make your own seat base out of steel or fiberglass and get a local upholstery shop to make a cover. Find a skinny fuel tank off an old MX or enduro that'll fit. Don't forget to get or make a good wide skidplate. For radial ply tires, try to find a nearby trials supply place or club. They'll most likely know some expert rider that changes tires as soon as the edges round off. Buy 'em cheap. They last forever and will be fine for this kind of project. Do whatever you can to reduce the suspension damping, lighter oil in both ends should help. You might be able to get away with slipping the fork tubes up in the clamps 10-15 mm, it'll help the front turn sharper and stick better. Strip everything off that you can to get the weight down. It sounds like a really fun thing to do. You might just like trials enough to upgrade later, if not, you'll still have the most fun trail bikes on your block. Good luck.
PS
If all this seems like too much, go with a Reflex for trail riding. Underpowered, but can be lightened by getting rid of the lights, toolbox and battery. Very reliable and parts are easy to get. Whatever you get, put radials on, they make a world of difference for traction.

 

[bultaco250]

XR/TL 200 / 250
Either way it still sounds like fun.

 

[bultaco250]

Before anyone else chimes in . . .
not "one down tooth", I meant "one tooth down"

 

[geremacheks]

Some great ideas, thanks a lot. :thumb:

 

[wayneg]

Just a silly question - wouldn't your XR185 make a better starting point for a trials bike? It is a lot lower than the XR200, with a more easily rebuildable seat area etc. I would think that moving the footpegs rear wards would be a big help, and the rest of the things that Bultaco250 says above would pretty much have the beast unleashed.

I think that having longer travel suspension would make the bike harder to ride in a trials situation unless you're well over 6' tall. One of the main things with the modern trials bikes is that they are low, which helps a lot when moving your body around on the bike.

 

[geremacheks]

With all these suggestions, I think I've gone around in a circle.

Maybe before I do anything, I should at least try out a trials bike (never have), and then decide if I want to "improve" it by making it a better trail bike, or just leave it alone, and ride it for what it is. After some rides and experience on a trialer, I should be able to focus more on what I really want. :cool:

 

[bultaco250]

The 185 would also work well, but the xr200/250 both have better aftermarket support for hop-up stuff if you need to upgrade suspension or engine power. I was just taking a cheap kind of "dual-sport" approach.
Definitely try out a purpose built trials bike if you have the opportunity. You'll find that older models from the late '70s - early '80s will have real (although small) seats, the engine power will be softer (big flywheels) and they'll handle a little slower. Better for those new to trials and great for trail riding. The Honda Reflex, Beta Alp and Gas Gas Pampera are based on the concept originated by Bultaco's Alpina. Taking a trials platform and making it more comfortable for trail riding, along with adding the bits required to make it street legal. If you can afford and don't want to mess with a bit of fabrication to modify your 185, you'll most likely be happy with any of them. They all have reliable engines. The Honda will be relatively cheap, parts are easily available. The Bultaco should also be relatively cheap for a decent example ($600 - $1500), and parts are easily available, even though they've been out of business since the early '80s. The Pampera and Alp will typically be more expensive just because they're newer and better. They'll have engine and handling characteristics similar to a modern trials bike, meaning a stronger motor and sharper handling. But that shouldn't be too much of a concern as modern trials bikes are so smooth and easy to ride anyway. Good luck and hope I didn't confuse the issue further.

 

[geremacheks]

Thanks, again. I am learning.

Question: Why are two strokes predominant in the trials scene? I suppose it's their characteristic lightness...... but four strokes have a reputation for hooking up with good traction and not spinning out like two strokes.

This leads to another question: How good are the old TY Honda four strokes, compared to the two strokes of today? The four strokes must have some advantages. Or maybe not. They don't seem to be making four stroke trialers.

 

[wayneg]

The old Honda four strokes are still useable at most trials over here up to about intermediate grade. There are heaps of them about but mainly older twin shock models, and they seem to do the job pretty well. IMHO they would be a real blast for trail riding and much easier to modify to give some decent fuel tank range than most of the modern bikes.

Two strokes are the standard now days because of their lighter weight and also because of their quicker revving abilities for the top grades. Much developement has been sunk into this technology, and the motors are very refined with smooth power and excellent traction, after all they only put out about 12 horsepower (measured on a '02 Beta 250 on a dyno!!!). This will all change soon as the FIM has decided that (at world championship level anyway) the bikes will be four strokes introduced as optional in 2004 and then only four strokes will be allowed from 2005. This won't have much of an impact at club level as there will still be plenty of two strokes still around, but it means that the focus of development will have changed.

 

[JTT]

Originally posted by geremacheks
and not spinning out like two strokes.

Two stroke trials engines are considerably different than "normal" dirt bikes. The way they are tuned, tractability is better than most "normal" 4S. That said, Wayne is right, sadly, the 4S are coming...with their extra bulk and expense, although I am sure they will get them sorted out in fairly short order. I still like my 2S :whiner:

Oh, and by the way, to aid in you searches, the old Hondas were TL's the old Yamahas were TYs ;)

 

[wayneg]

Theres a 1998 Beta for sale on Ebay which looks to me like it might be and ALP.

Have a look

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2400612496&category=6719

 

[Patman]

SWEET! Man I wish my allowance was bigger I'd be all over that!

 

[geremacheks]

DOUBLE SWEET! I like the lights too. I don't suppose too many trials bikes have lights. I've got to learn more about these bikes.

Excuse: I just bought a slightly used 03 KTM EXC 525 (super trialer)! I'm going to need three bodies and three bank accounts to do all the riding I want to do.

 

[JTT]

Actually, they all come with lights, just that many remove them for competitions in N. America, as they are not needed.

 

[wayneg]

I would really like to give one of those Alps a try out one day, but as there are only two of them in the country I don't think it will happen :(

Most people remove the lights on their trials bikes to put their name plate on - I made a very small name plate which I have screwed above the light. Its only a small little light on the Beta Rev3, but it seems to be quite effective for trail riding in the trees.

 

[geremacheks]

That Alp has an actual seat, too, that might be comfortable for longer trail rides. Looks like the only modification it would need for trail riding would be a bigger tank. (But a 4-stroke engine would be nice).

You mean there are only two of them in N.Z.? More of them in the states, here? How many year models were like this bike here, with a decent seat and lights? Thanks.