ESPY Park in Pekin, IL
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nikki
Moto Junkie
- Apr 21, 2000
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Espy... the only track I've ever gotten motion sickness while I raced ;)
Actually - it's an interesting set-up. There is a man-made old railroad hill that runs the length of park. The track itself maybe uses 1/2 mile of the hill and goes over and through the hill the length of the track then comes back (if that makes sense). So the track is on a plot of land like 1/2 mile long and 100-120 feet wide with a 15-20 foot tall hill running in the middle long ways.
They held D17 races until last year. On race day, the track was goomed nice in spots, but hardpacked and dusty for the most part. Sometimes if you got a bad start, you'd go a whole lap not being able to see through the dust. It's got some fun safe SX style jumps, some high speed doubles, some tables, and some more natural jumps with the terrain changes. Lots of short ups and downs with the hill.
I know how to get there but don't know the street names. I'll ask Red sometime this weekend, he should know the names. Plus he may have an old membership card with an address/phone number. I think it's still a big hot spot for the locals to practice.
Here is a photo at Espy a few years back:
Actually - it's an interesting set-up. There is a man-made old railroad hill that runs the length of park. The track itself maybe uses 1/2 mile of the hill and goes over and through the hill the length of the track then comes back (if that makes sense). So the track is on a plot of land like 1/2 mile long and 100-120 feet wide with a 15-20 foot tall hill running in the middle long ways.
They held D17 races until last year. On race day, the track was goomed nice in spots, but hardpacked and dusty for the most part. Sometimes if you got a bad start, you'd go a whole lap not being able to see through the dust. It's got some fun safe SX style jumps, some high speed doubles, some tables, and some more natural jumps with the terrain changes. Lots of short ups and downs with the hill.
I know how to get there but don't know the street names. I'll ask Red sometime this weekend, he should know the names. Plus he may have an old membership card with an address/phone number. I think it's still a big hot spot for the locals to practice.
Here is a photo at Espy a few years back:
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Thanks Nikki
I think I have a phone number for them, at least I do if the one on Motocross Action Mags website is correct.
We rode US51 on Wednesday and while it was fun, it was not very challenging. All the jumps, including triples were easy and the track was very hardpacked in areas. Now that they are not racing it seems the grooming has been let go and that may be the reason. We are looking forward to going to Walnut and thats what I was comparing to. Granted we were at Walnut on a race day and perfectly groomed track so the comparison may not be fair.
I guess I just figure that at my age (41) and the fact I have not raced MX in better than 13 years that any track I can go out on and do all the obstacles after a few laps is too easy. My riding ability has deteriorated on equal footing to my physique so I like a challenge a new track brings. My son loved it though, it is the first time he has been able to do a double and then he progressed to the uphill double, so he was on cloud nine. They close April 20th so I doubt we will make it back down to US51 before they close.
I think I have a phone number for them, at least I do if the one on Motocross Action Mags website is correct.
We rode US51 on Wednesday and while it was fun, it was not very challenging. All the jumps, including triples were easy and the track was very hardpacked in areas. Now that they are not racing it seems the grooming has been let go and that may be the reason. We are looking forward to going to Walnut and thats what I was comparing to. Granted we were at Walnut on a race day and perfectly groomed track so the comparison may not be fair.
I guess I just figure that at my age (41) and the fact I have not raced MX in better than 13 years that any track I can go out on and do all the obstacles after a few laps is too easy. My riding ability has deteriorated on equal footing to my physique so I like a challenge a new track brings. My son loved it though, it is the first time he has been able to do a double and then he progressed to the uphill double, so he was on cloud nine. They close April 20th so I doubt we will make it back down to US51 before they close.
nikki
Moto Junkie
- Apr 21, 2000
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Wow I didn't know Tom was closing up for good this year! He said at the LTM banquet a few months ago that he was gonna be open for practice all year and maybe run a few outlaw races. I guess he might be selling the land for new homes? Too bad... with a little TLC that track coulda been something.
Don't waste your time comparing Walnut to many IL tracks. Hard packed is the name of the game around here... of course tracks like Mendota, Joliet, and Casey are groomed really well on race days, but they are all still pretty hard packed after a few bikes run over them. Even sandy Walnut gets rock hard in spots.
US 51 is a great beginner track, though - I figured your son would have fun there. That triple triple section always made me feel like a pro (despite the fact that a few 50's have done em) :confused: If US 51 ran up and down the hill more and had a few nice berms... it could be really cool. But I think the track owner was always after the easiest way to maintain/groom the track (ie. all the flat turns). Oh well... another one closes up :|
Since you're in the spirit of checking out the IL tracks - make sure to take a trip out to Coal Valley sometime... for some reason I LOVE that track... close draw between there and Walnut... but they are two completely different types of tracks. Coal Valley changes the track a lot, has lots of terrain changes, and lots of easy to medium jumps.
Erick - no I don't know about Pekin but heard a few weeks ago that its pretty cool from some people talking at a race. Let us know if you find out more.
Don't waste your time comparing Walnut to many IL tracks. Hard packed is the name of the game around here... of course tracks like Mendota, Joliet, and Casey are groomed really well on race days, but they are all still pretty hard packed after a few bikes run over them. Even sandy Walnut gets rock hard in spots.
US 51 is a great beginner track, though - I figured your son would have fun there. That triple triple section always made me feel like a pro (despite the fact that a few 50's have done em) :confused: If US 51 ran up and down the hill more and had a few nice berms... it could be really cool. But I think the track owner was always after the easiest way to maintain/groom the track (ie. all the flat turns). Oh well... another one closes up :|
Since you're in the spirit of checking out the IL tracks - make sure to take a trip out to Coal Valley sometime... for some reason I LOVE that track... close draw between there and Walnut... but they are two completely different types of tracks. Coal Valley changes the track a lot, has lots of terrain changes, and lots of easy to medium jumps.
Erick - no I don't know about Pekin but heard a few weeks ago that its pretty cool from some people talking at a race. Let us know if you find out more.
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I'm not sure if US51 is closing or not, it seems a bit murky right now. Their website says:
Our last day of open riding is April 20th at US 51 MX Park. We will close down on Monday, April 21st forever so come out now to open ride for the last time (see "Track Status" for details). Everything is "For Sale" including our 4x4 Quad, IH 4x4 tractor, Disk, Plow, Blade, Concession Stand equipment, Freezers, POP coolers, Roasters/Cookers, White "regular home kitchen" Microwaves in excellent condition, P.A. system & speakers, Honda water pumps, water hose and valves, about 25 power poles, etc., etc.
However, the other riders that were there told us the same thing as you. I thought the land was for sale and their insurance expires on April 20th, but maybe they are trying to work something else out.
So far we have ridden Fox Valley, Buffalo Range, Joliet, Watermen, and US51. Before the end of this year he wants to try Walnut, Coal Valley, Mendota, MC Motopark, South Fork, and LTM. I want to hit a play day at Red Bud also. He has been to watch at Byron and was intimidated by the hill jumps. However, by the end of the year as he progresses we may add it too the list.
Any idea if Coal Valley and Mega hold practice days? I know the others do but the websites for those two do not say.
Our last day of open riding is April 20th at US 51 MX Park. We will close down on Monday, April 21st forever so come out now to open ride for the last time (see "Track Status" for details). Everything is "For Sale" including our 4x4 Quad, IH 4x4 tractor, Disk, Plow, Blade, Concession Stand equipment, Freezers, POP coolers, Roasters/Cookers, White "regular home kitchen" Microwaves in excellent condition, P.A. system & speakers, Honda water pumps, water hose and valves, about 25 power poles, etc., etc.
However, the other riders that were there told us the same thing as you. I thought the land was for sale and their insurance expires on April 20th, but maybe they are trying to work something else out.
So far we have ridden Fox Valley, Buffalo Range, Joliet, Watermen, and US51. Before the end of this year he wants to try Walnut, Coal Valley, Mendota, MC Motopark, South Fork, and LTM. I want to hit a play day at Red Bud also. He has been to watch at Byron and was intimidated by the hill jumps. However, by the end of the year as he progresses we may add it too the list.
Any idea if Coal Valley and Mega hold practice days? I know the others do but the websites for those two do not say.
wardy
2005 Lori Nyland Award Winner
- Nov 12, 1999
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no practice at Megacross, only races. Coal Valley I think it requires membership to ride on non -race day? I got that same e-mail about wappella.
It would be totally cool if some one would buy that place and set up the races again!! ANYONE out there interested? I am not sure how much or if that is a plan but I hate like heck to see it go away. If they don't hold races at wapella then I would imagine that the track is gone forever since i believe they are running on a "grandfather" status and no races in a year would mean no more ever.
You can't miss LTM, Planet X-treme, ad those to the list, LTM is a great track and Planet I hear is really good also! They are a little farther to drive but worth it.
wardy
It would be totally cool if some one would buy that place and set up the races again!! ANYONE out there interested? I am not sure how much or if that is a plan but I hate like heck to see it go away. If they don't hold races at wapella then I would imagine that the track is gone forever since i believe they are running on a "grandfather" status and no races in a year would mean no more ever.
You can't miss LTM, Planet X-treme, ad those to the list, LTM is a great track and Planet I hear is really good also! They are a little farther to drive but worth it.
wardy
That idea sounds like a grant proposal to me...
About Byron, I wouldn't take my kid to practice there unless I was certain they would have a separate 50cc session -- that goes for me on any track but especially something like Byron with the hills/blind spots.
However, I wouldn't hesitate to take a relatively experienced kid to race there. My son had his first race at Byron just two weeks ago and he did fine with the hills (even passed a kid going down one). It looks a little worse than it is, I think.
James
About Byron, I wouldn't take my kid to practice there unless I was certain they would have a separate 50cc session -- that goes for me on any track but especially something like Byron with the hills/blind spots.
However, I wouldn't hesitate to take a relatively experienced kid to race there. My son had his first race at Byron just two weeks ago and he did fine with the hills (even passed a kid going down one). It looks a little worse than it is, I think.
James
Why dosn't the DRN community buy a track, maybe this track. Set it up the way we want ect. Have dirt week there, get corporate sponsers, races, have membership previleges and open riding times, apply for OHV grants. I have no experence with any of this, but it seems like a good idea and turing an existing track into a better track would be alot easier than starting a new one. Peolpe are willing to spend 1,000s on bikes, so a couple hundred for a good place to ride wouldn't be much or out of line.
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I don't think it would be quite that simple Erick. Frankly, I don't see how some of them are staying in business now with the costs of land, insurance, and upkeep what it is. The price would be more like 1k or more per local DRN member to undertake that sort of commitment.
My guess is the cost to acquire a track and all associated fee's, insurance, and equipment is around 300k at a minimum. I'm sure Wardy will chime in on this and tell me where I'm off, but for a track you would need at least 50 acres and land prices are around 2500 an acre, so the cost of the land before you do anything is $125,000. Now, how many DRN members are local to the track. Yes alot of us are in the central Illinois area, but how many would be willing to ante up? If the cost is 300k you would need 300 members at $1,000 each just to get started. Then the next year you have to hit them again for insurance and upkeep of the place. Some of that could be offset with races and rentals but it would still be a substantial investment from each member.
I wonder what the asking price was for Wapella. I know they were trying to sell to a developer so I wonder what they wanted for the place.
My guess is the cost to acquire a track and all associated fee's, insurance, and equipment is around 300k at a minimum. I'm sure Wardy will chime in on this and tell me where I'm off, but for a track you would need at least 50 acres and land prices are around 2500 an acre, so the cost of the land before you do anything is $125,000. Now, how many DRN members are local to the track. Yes alot of us are in the central Illinois area, but how many would be willing to ante up? If the cost is 300k you would need 300 members at $1,000 each just to get started. Then the next year you have to hit them again for insurance and upkeep of the place. Some of that could be offset with races and rentals but it would still be a substantial investment from each member.
I wonder what the asking price was for Wapella. I know they were trying to sell to a developer so I wonder what they wanted for the place.
The state OHV grant program offers 100% funding for land purchases for these types of transactions, also this type of land is ussually much less than $2,500 and acre, this is non tillable crap ground, not prime farm land. Also there are finanicng options. A couple of peices of used equipment is not that exspensive. This is just an idea, we have a large number of members here with much much more experience then me, I hate to a see a track in central IL. close there are so few anyways. There are always options. If they are filing for bankruptcy and there is a mortgage holder we could allways purchase it from them at a discount.
Here is the info from the web sight.
The OHV grant program provides financial aid to government agencies, not-for-profit organizations, and other eligible groups or individuals to develop, operate, maintain, and acquire land for off-highway vehicle parks and trails. These facilities must be open and accessible to the public. The program can also help restore areas damaged by unauthorized OHV use. Funds for the grant program come from the State Treasurer's "Off-Highway Vehicle Trails Fund."
The OHV grant program can provide up to 100% funding reimbursement assistance for approved, eligible project costs. Applications for grant assistance must be received by IDNR no later than March 1 of each calendar year. Awards are generally announced within 180 days following the application deadline date.
Examples of eligible project activities include:
cost of land acquisition from willing sellers for OHV trails and scramble areas;
construction, rehabilitation, maintenance and design for OHV trails/routes and scramble areas;
restoration of areas damaged by OHV usage;
rider education and safety programs;
cost of facility security
Anyways did you go to ESPY this weekend I was there on Sunday.
The OHV grant program provides financial aid to government agencies, not-for-profit organizations, and other eligible groups or individuals to develop, operate, maintain, and acquire land for off-highway vehicle parks and trails. These facilities must be open and accessible to the public. The program can also help restore areas damaged by unauthorized OHV use. Funds for the grant program come from the State Treasurer's "Off-Highway Vehicle Trails Fund."
The OHV grant program can provide up to 100% funding reimbursement assistance for approved, eligible project costs. Applications for grant assistance must be received by IDNR no later than March 1 of each calendar year. Awards are generally announced within 180 days following the application deadline date.
Examples of eligible project activities include:
cost of land acquisition from willing sellers for OHV trails and scramble areas;
construction, rehabilitation, maintenance and design for OHV trails/routes and scramble areas;
restoration of areas damaged by OHV usage;
rider education and safety programs;
cost of facility security
Anyways did you go to ESPY this weekend I was there on Sunday.
Not to rain on your idea or anything, but I think you're missing the obvious...
Who would control it?
Unlike cheap bandwidth, people will not be so eager to defer power when real money and real property are at stake. And your numbers imply a lot of people being involved there.
Now, for one person to go at it, sure! With the time, determination, some seed money, the tenacity to go after the grant, the willingness to abide by the rules if you're selected (remember, it's the state's money, not yours, you're playing with), and the backup plan in case the grant goes elsewhere (wider open, less served areas are given preference), it could work.
Plus, even for crap land, my guess is $2,500 an acre, at least in Illinois, is pretty low nowadays. My understanding is anything even remotely resembling farm land in Illinois is getting bid way up there. Plus, if a developer has had his eyes on it, it probably doesn't qualify for crap status. Now, if you were talking about the West Virginia hills...
James
Who would control it?
Unlike cheap bandwidth, people will not be so eager to defer power when real money and real property are at stake. And your numbers imply a lot of people being involved there.
Now, for one person to go at it, sure! With the time, determination, some seed money, the tenacity to go after the grant, the willingness to abide by the rules if you're selected (remember, it's the state's money, not yours, you're playing with), and the backup plan in case the grant goes elsewhere (wider open, less served areas are given preference), it could work.
Plus, even for crap land, my guess is $2,500 an acre, at least in Illinois, is pretty low nowadays. My understanding is anything even remotely resembling farm land in Illinois is getting bid way up there. Plus, if a developer has had his eyes on it, it probably doesn't qualify for crap status. Now, if you were talking about the West Virginia hills...
James
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- #17
I wasn't aware that OHV had that program. The kink with that is that is has to be not for profit, so who would run it? I wonder if the operators could pay themselves a salary, otherwise where is the incentive for the private sector to do this? It would have to be someone independently wealthy and probably why Wardy, Watermen, and others don't choose that route.
My wife and I got sick with the cool weather that blew in last weekend. I am just now starting to feel better. This is a rough weekend for us so we may do something closer to home. We have family commitments on both Saturday and Sunday through about noon so a long drive to a track will be out of the question this week. We may head to Wardy's Saturday afternoon since he is only 30 minutes from us. I was going to do the harescramble at Byron on Sat, but it will depend on whether our appt Sat morning is finished in time. I think they start at noon and they are a good hour from me so it is not looking promising.
My wife and I got sick with the cool weather that blew in last weekend. I am just now starting to feel better. This is a rough weekend for us so we may do something closer to home. We have family commitments on both Saturday and Sunday through about noon so a long drive to a track will be out of the question this week. We may head to Wardy's Saturday afternoon since he is only 30 minutes from us. I was going to do the harescramble at Byron on Sat, but it will depend on whether our appt Sat morning is finished in time. I think they start at noon and they are a good hour from me so it is not looking promising.
There are several places that have applied for and gotten the grants. I think the biggest in operation right now is the Little Italy place (???). Anyway, operators are allowed to charge enough for admission to cover costs, which would include the salaries of the employees, I assume.
As long as the operators remember they are running on state funds and not their own and don't abuse it, I don't see that being a problem. However, if they charge as much as a for-profit place ($20-$25), I think they would have some explaining to do. For comparison, the public lands in Ohio charge $5 a day or $25 for an annual pass.
Somewhere on the Illinois Department of Natural Resources site there are links to press releases announcing the grants each year and all the riding areas that have opened thanks to the grants. Some places have gone back multiple years for more dough even after they have the land for upkeep, tractors, money for quads to maintain trails, etc.
The program was started maybe four or five years ago. Whenever someone buys a new ATV or dirt bike, they are charged a fee that then is put into the grant fund. Every spring, the agency hands out the grants to the places/individuals it feels are most deserving.
The key distinction is they are *reimbursement* grants. This means you need the cash or financing up front to buy the place, and then the grant pays you back (or pays the bank back). So, you have to be in a position to stick your neck out a little bit, but you don't have to be wealthy. Of course, there are environmental impact reports, public notices, etc., that have to be done before the land is considered eligible.
Iowa has something similar, but I believe it was raided (or was threatened as much) to make up for that state's budget shortfalls in other areas -- the AMA magazine wrote a lot about that. There was some talk about that happening in Illinois, but the ABATE guys made sure that didn't get too far. The funds are safe in Illinois, thanks to ABATE and others.
James
As long as the operators remember they are running on state funds and not their own and don't abuse it, I don't see that being a problem. However, if they charge as much as a for-profit place ($20-$25), I think they would have some explaining to do. For comparison, the public lands in Ohio charge $5 a day or $25 for an annual pass.
Somewhere on the Illinois Department of Natural Resources site there are links to press releases announcing the grants each year and all the riding areas that have opened thanks to the grants. Some places have gone back multiple years for more dough even after they have the land for upkeep, tractors, money for quads to maintain trails, etc.
The program was started maybe four or five years ago. Whenever someone buys a new ATV or dirt bike, they are charged a fee that then is put into the grant fund. Every spring, the agency hands out the grants to the places/individuals it feels are most deserving.
The key distinction is they are *reimbursement* grants. This means you need the cash or financing up front to buy the place, and then the grant pays you back (or pays the bank back). So, you have to be in a position to stick your neck out a little bit, but you don't have to be wealthy. Of course, there are environmental impact reports, public notices, etc., that have to be done before the land is considered eligible.
Iowa has something similar, but I believe it was raided (or was threatened as much) to make up for that state's budget shortfalls in other areas -- the AMA magazine wrote a lot about that. There was some talk about that happening in Illinois, but the ABATE guys made sure that didn't get too far. The funds are safe in Illinois, thanks to ABATE and others.
James
"Of course, there are environmental impact reports, public notices, etc., that have to be done before the land is considered eligible."
This is already a motorcycle track, so that part should be easier. If the bank is going to take possession they might be willing to finance it short-term until a grant has been received, they probly would help with the grant process as well. Now all we need is about 100-200 people who would want to get involved and be owners/investors/club members. This is were the DRN community gets involved.
We can make it none for profit business meaning any profits would go to funds to aquire additional riding areas in other communities or they stay in an account, details to be worked out latter. Before long we own several areas we all have great places to ride and life is good.
This is already a motorcycle track, so that part should be easier. If the bank is going to take possession they might be willing to finance it short-term until a grant has been received, they probly would help with the grant process as well. Now all we need is about 100-200 people who would want to get involved and be owners/investors/club members. This is were the DRN community gets involved.
We can make it none for profit business meaning any profits would go to funds to aquire additional riding areas in other communities or they stay in an account, details to be worked out latter. Before long we own several areas we all have great places to ride and life is good.
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- #20
Erick
I think Wapella was up for sale to developers which would push the price much higher than the OHV fund would be willing to pay. An acre of farmland is 1/10th the cost of an acre of developed land. I have never seen what their asking price was for the place but you can bet it was high if they were marketing it to nearby developers. Now that they are faced with closure the price may come down, but you would need to know that before even considering OHV help. Even if it went into foreclosure you would need to know what the price was. For instance in Bankruptcy the Bank has an obligation to get the fair market value or close to it and use any excess to pay additional creditors, they then must show and get Court approval prior to the sell. If the land has been rezoned or the people in the homes nearby object to an OHV park nearby the problems and costs to keep it going would far outweigh anything you could hope to get in OHV funds. Just because it is a race track now would not obligate the City or County to issue a new owner a permit to do the same thing there.
Like all things in life, price needs to be known first. If they were willing to sell for the right price and their lease to continue to operate an OHV park with the City or County is long enough and they were willing to allow a new owner to take it over, it may be worth exploration. If they are looking to sell to developers at 10k or more an acre there is no hope of anything for the place to continue as is. If the current owner feels he can sell at a cut rate to a developer he is never going to consider selling for the price of untillable farm land. It would be a huge risk to go in without knowing some of these things in advance.
I think Wapella was up for sale to developers which would push the price much higher than the OHV fund would be willing to pay. An acre of farmland is 1/10th the cost of an acre of developed land. I have never seen what their asking price was for the place but you can bet it was high if they were marketing it to nearby developers. Now that they are faced with closure the price may come down, but you would need to know that before even considering OHV help. Even if it went into foreclosure you would need to know what the price was. For instance in Bankruptcy the Bank has an obligation to get the fair market value or close to it and use any excess to pay additional creditors, they then must show and get Court approval prior to the sell. If the land has been rezoned or the people in the homes nearby object to an OHV park nearby the problems and costs to keep it going would far outweigh anything you could hope to get in OHV funds. Just because it is a race track now would not obligate the City or County to issue a new owner a permit to do the same thing there.
Like all things in life, price needs to be known first. If they were willing to sell for the right price and their lease to continue to operate an OHV park with the City or County is long enough and they were willing to allow a new owner to take it over, it may be worth exploration. If they are looking to sell to developers at 10k or more an acre there is no hope of anything for the place to continue as is. If the current owner feels he can sell at a cut rate to a developer he is never going to consider selling for the price of untillable farm land. It would be a huge risk to go in without knowing some of these things in advance.
I am making some assumptions. I think the track is outside of Wapella and is not within any city limits, so zoning might be easier since it is allready zoned for its current use and you would only have to deal with the county, the zoning would not change because ownership does. It is already zoned for this use.
If there was a developer involved yes the land would than be priced much higher, but it is in BFE so why would a developer be willing to pay a high price $10,000 an acre, when there is more attractible property else where. Also, the track is closing do to bankruptcy, not sale to developer, which leads me to believe they couldn't sell it. This also means they maybe willing to take a lower price depending on outside debts. The creditors would need to receive enough to satisfy and release mortgages. I agree we need a starting price, to make projections, we would also need to get operating expenses ect.
It is just an idea. As stated before I hate to see tracks close when state funding is available and there are few riding spots left.
If there was a developer involved yes the land would than be priced much higher, but it is in BFE so why would a developer be willing to pay a high price $10,000 an acre, when there is more attractible property else where. Also, the track is closing do to bankruptcy, not sale to developer, which leads me to believe they couldn't sell it. This also means they maybe willing to take a lower price depending on outside debts. The creditors would need to receive enough to satisfy and release mortgages. I agree we need a starting price, to make projections, we would also need to get operating expenses ect.
It is just an idea. As stated before I hate to see tracks close when state funding is available and there are few riding spots left.
Again, I think that's a plan for failure. No venture will survive with 100 or 20 or 10 or even four bosses. But if you can get 99 other guys to part with two grand and sign over powers of attorney, then more power to ya!
And, to reiterate what the other guy was saying, you need to know the likely price of this place first. I haven't looked at the lists of past grants for awhile, but I believe the biggest one so far has been less than $300k. If the bank is foreclosing, then your idea about them financing the deal might be a good one. Call up and see. However, that might not float either (see the grant rules for not having anything lined up before hand -- the wording is pretty strict).
All that said, I'm not saying one dedicated person couldn't make it work. Quite a few have done so, and some more will this year (they'll probably announce the new grants in a month or so), and next year, even more. You could be one of those guys next year, but if I were you I would start looking for the land (maybe Espy, maybe not) and getting your stuff in order today, and I'd do it with one or two other guys if you have to. But don't even think about including a bunch. It will never get off the ground.
Good luck,
James
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- #23
Wardy would be the man to consult with on something like this. The fact that they are going Bankrupt actually muddies up the picture and makes things more difficult. With Bankruptcy you are no longer dealing with the owner or creditors, you are now having to get a Judge to sign off on the deal.
With the homes that are already south of the track I could easily see 10k an acre. That is very low for residential land considering it would be 5 to 10 times more than that in the burbs. I'm in Oswego and the nearest town to buy a buildable lot is Yorkville and they go for 80k for a lot. That is a 1/4 to 1/3 lot. Yorkville is about as bfe as you can get for a Chicago suburb also so that 10k estimate is very low for a developer.
I may be wrong, but I seem to recall an asking price on this place over 2 million. I'm going from memory and it may not have been this track. I think Wardy or someone posted a long time ago about anyone wanting to buy a track and a link. Wardy or Nikki, do you guys recall this?
I also would not do something like this with 200 equal partners. Hell I wouldn't do something like this with 3 partners. Investors yes, something along the lines of give 1k and you have lifetime privelages or something. But equal partners, you would never get an agreement on anything. I would set it up to where the OHV money would be gravy IF it happened, not rely on it as a condition of opening the place up.
I think you are starting to see the difficulties in these types of things and why we are losing places to ride. Land values are rising much faster than a track or riding area's ability to generate the necessary income to stay in business.
With the homes that are already south of the track I could easily see 10k an acre. That is very low for residential land considering it would be 5 to 10 times more than that in the burbs. I'm in Oswego and the nearest town to buy a buildable lot is Yorkville and they go for 80k for a lot. That is a 1/4 to 1/3 lot. Yorkville is about as bfe as you can get for a Chicago suburb also so that 10k estimate is very low for a developer.
I may be wrong, but I seem to recall an asking price on this place over 2 million. I'm going from memory and it may not have been this track. I think Wardy or someone posted a long time ago about anyone wanting to buy a track and a link. Wardy or Nikki, do you guys recall this?
I also would not do something like this with 200 equal partners. Hell I wouldn't do something like this with 3 partners. Investors yes, something along the lines of give 1k and you have lifetime privelages or something. But equal partners, you would never get an agreement on anything. I would set it up to where the OHV money would be gravy IF it happened, not rely on it as a condition of opening the place up.
I think you are starting to see the difficulties in these types of things and why we are losing places to ride. Land values are rising much faster than a track or riding area's ability to generate the necessary income to stay in business.
wardy
2005 Lori Nyland Award Winner
- Nov 12, 1999
- 2,681
- 9
OH my the great OHV grant system, I think Okie would ban me if I took all his web space and let you know how that thing works., Just so ya know I have been in front of those guys & gals three times, lots LOTS of red tape for that }FREE money. They regulate a bunch of things and restrict the big picture or "long term" for sure. ANyway some of the people there are really cool, others in my mind have an agenda. This was the first year that the "deadline" passed and I didn't even think about it! thats really cool!@
On wapella, I just don't understand, I have the same riders at Mendota, more overhead (course I live in my body shop apartment not a house like that) but a fair living could or can be made>? I have an opinion that "racers don't make good promoters" and yet the also can make the "best promoters" it depends on ones drive and if they truely enjoy the sport. ie: jean ramsey.
I am sure there are a ton of issues there, and if I didn't own FVOR now, you likely would see me at Wapella running races. I liked the area, the track, and the people. But now that I have the park its not an option, hell the wife would kill me, but I really hope that this summer someone trys to make that place go, it can make it no question in my mind.
Grant money for it will not work, it is not what they are looking for, course they want 500 acres outside chicago and that won't happen either. they don't like parks our size, and they have walked it and been to it in 2001.
Anyway i wouldn't discourage people from trying to do the grant deal, but you have to finance it up front then they pay you back, thats tuff enough, then price caps are making it hard for current places now to exsist.
One thing, 28 parks & tracks last week lost their insurance for 2003, ALL of us are now scrambling again to find coverage.................you don't even want to know figures, but safe to say it could at this point almost take half a season to pay for it.......................wonder why i get anal when a guy is wheeling through the pits with no helmet!!!!!!!!!!
wardy
On wapella, I just don't understand, I have the same riders at Mendota, more overhead (course I live in my body shop apartment not a house like that) but a fair living could or can be made>? I have an opinion that "racers don't make good promoters" and yet the also can make the "best promoters" it depends on ones drive and if they truely enjoy the sport. ie: jean ramsey.
I am sure there are a ton of issues there, and if I didn't own FVOR now, you likely would see me at Wapella running races. I liked the area, the track, and the people. But now that I have the park its not an option, hell the wife would kill me, but I really hope that this summer someone trys to make that place go, it can make it no question in my mind.
Grant money for it will not work, it is not what they are looking for, course they want 500 acres outside chicago and that won't happen either. they don't like parks our size, and they have walked it and been to it in 2001.
Anyway i wouldn't discourage people from trying to do the grant deal, but you have to finance it up front then they pay you back, thats tuff enough, then price caps are making it hard for current places now to exsist.
One thing, 28 parks & tracks last week lost their insurance for 2003, ALL of us are now scrambling again to find coverage.................you don't even want to know figures, but safe to say it could at this point almost take half a season to pay for it.......................wonder why i get anal when a guy is wheeling through the pits with no helmet!!!!!!!!!!
wardy
Wardy,
I am currious about the insurance issue and solutions. What type of insurance do you and other track owners have, liability, umbrella policy?
Just curious, if everyone signs wavers and you ride at your own risk, what kind of insurance is required. I personally would set the property up in a Land trust make my self the sole bennifical of the propety. Have a seperate company set up that operates the property and leases it from the land trust. There for I am not personally liable, second the land trust owns the poperty, but does not operate the tack. So, go head sue the operating company I don't care they don't have anything. Any profits are distributed to stock holder and there wouldn't be any because the rent would make it only about break even.
The only insurance I would have would be on buildings and equipment. Let me know your thoughts. Make sure you got a good attorny to draw up the legal docs and screw the high insurance.
I am currious about the insurance issue and solutions. What type of insurance do you and other track owners have, liability, umbrella policy?
Just curious, if everyone signs wavers and you ride at your own risk, what kind of insurance is required. I personally would set the property up in a Land trust make my self the sole bennifical of the propety. Have a seperate company set up that operates the property and leases it from the land trust. There for I am not personally liable, second the land trust owns the poperty, but does not operate the tack. So, go head sue the operating company I don't care they don't have anything. Any profits are distributed to stock holder and there wouldn't be any because the rent would make it only about break even.
The only insurance I would have would be on buildings and equipment. Let me know your thoughts. Make sure you got a good attorny to draw up the legal docs and screw the high insurance.
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