Final Thought on ATF TYPE F
- Thread starter tinytrev
- Start date
Folks, when a manufacturer recommends a fluid for your bike, it is not because mucho yen has been spent to find the ultimate fluid for that model. It is simply a money deal. Pure and simple.
Fluid manufacturers lobby to be the recommended fluid with deals to the mfg. In some cases, fluid companies provide the initial fill fluid at no cost to the mfg. They make up for this in the end by being the recommended fluid of choice. This gives them good sales on the back end, since many folks are blinded by marketing practices and think that the mfg only recommends fluids becasue they are the absolute best choice.
Get a clue, people.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with running ATF in a motorcycle gear box. Too many folks use it with great success. Granted some bikes don't react well with it, but if your bike is one of these rare instances, by all means find another fluid. But, most every modern day MX and woods bike has had ATF used in it and there aren't many that have any problems at all. That is if all the bike is sound. I have a hard time believing that a bike that has everything in top running order will have one bit of trouble with ATF in the box.
If others are running the very same bike using ATF and have no problems, just what does that say to you?
Hey, Boot (Craig)
Do me a favor and take a wiff from a bottle of the Castrol ATF. I had several brands of ATF that I was experimenting with and found that every bottle of Castrol I opened had a very strong smell of oxidation (old rotting oil smell...like the rear end of a 65 chevy)
I won't use Castrol ATF in my shocks as a result. I have found no other brand of ATF to have an oxidation smell in a new bottle.
Fluid manufacturers lobby to be the recommended fluid with deals to the mfg. In some cases, fluid companies provide the initial fill fluid at no cost to the mfg. They make up for this in the end by being the recommended fluid of choice. This gives them good sales on the back end, since many folks are blinded by marketing practices and think that the mfg only recommends fluids becasue they are the absolute best choice.
Get a clue, people.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with running ATF in a motorcycle gear box. Too many folks use it with great success. Granted some bikes don't react well with it, but if your bike is one of these rare instances, by all means find another fluid. But, most every modern day MX and woods bike has had ATF used in it and there aren't many that have any problems at all. That is if all the bike is sound. I have a hard time believing that a bike that has everything in top running order will have one bit of trouble with ATF in the box.
If others are running the very same bike using ATF and have no problems, just what does that say to you?
Hey, Boot (Craig)
Do me a favor and take a wiff from a bottle of the Castrol ATF. I had several brands of ATF that I was experimenting with and found that every bottle of Castrol I opened had a very strong smell of oxidation (old rotting oil smell...like the rear end of a 65 chevy)
I won't use Castrol ATF in my shocks as a result. I have found no other brand of ATF to have an oxidation smell in a new bottle.
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I have to agree with Bill Hibbs on this one. You people crack me up. it sounds like some people have more passion over saving a buck then riding off-road bikes. ATF would be OK if your gear box was nothing more than a series of clutches, but it is not is it. I work on printing euipment and there is alot of oils and lubricants for different systems whether it is a press or a high volume pump or a high pressure pump or even from one press to another the lubricants are different and they have different properties, one will not work well in the place of another period. In machines that run day in and day out you can not put hydrolic oils in place of gear oils and expect them to last, they won't that is a fact
There is a lot of MX junkies that only ride a bike for a year or two and they could probaly get away with running on piss and castrol oil for a year or two of track riding. But I would suggest if want your machine to last and operate at it's best you use the recommended lubircants.
I know people that think ATF is a lube-all works great in the tranny, shocks, forks, chain whatever... I strongly disagree. Most ATF oil are just cheap hydrolic oils with cheap additives.
That being said no oil makes up for lack of maintenance, or improperly set up machines, motorcycle, presses or otherwise.
There is a lot of MX junkies that only ride a bike for a year or two and they could probaly get away with running on piss and castrol oil for a year or two of track riding. But I would suggest if want your machine to last and operate at it's best you use the recommended lubircants.
I know people that think ATF is a lube-all works great in the tranny, shocks, forks, chain whatever... I strongly disagree. Most ATF oil are just cheap hydrolic oils with cheap additives.
That being said no oil makes up for lack of maintenance, or improperly set up machines, motorcycle, presses or otherwise.
I really like threads like this. My '00 KX 250 clutch was really grabby when cold and got better with warming up. It was not a mechanical problem, brand new billet basket-with extra oil holes thanks to DRN members posts.I put in some valvoline 50 wt motor oil, wrong direction! After reading many posts, I mixed type F and 30 wt 50/50 with very good results. I never would have though of that on my own.
jaybird how does it save the manufacture any money be recomending you to run cheap oil?what are they buying your oil for you ?what do they care if it saves you money or not i would think they would do the opposite and recomend over kill because what do they care there not the ones paying for it.and as far as the manufacture recomending an oil to run this is not about what brand oil to run its about what type of oil to run yes if they said to run only honda oil in hondas it would seam like its about money but they say run honda or its equal weight and viscosty to that oil,my manuel has several recomendations for oil excluding the honda brand oil but nothing even close to atf weight.
Jaybird is exactly right. Kawasaki did not go out and fund a study to test every gear, motor, and ATF oil on the market before making their decision. They looked to the requirements of the motor, and recommended a lubricant that their institutional experience told them would be satisfactory. Probably took all of five minutes in a meeting. It is a logical disconnect to assume that because the mfgr specifies one thing that will work satisfactorily, it means it is the only thing that will work.
If any of you are new to this issue, keep this in mind as you read: none of the nay-sayers in this thread have offered up any serious argument to support their implication that ATF is somehow damaging to your (two stroke) gearbox. It is not. Better arguments against ATF than seen here have been posted, discussed and refuted one-by-one with reasoned, technical arguments in many previous threads. The better ones are still in the archives. In addition to the technical merits (and as Jaybird accurately points out) there has already been a large real world trial of the suitability of ATF: Thousands of actual riders using it in their bikes with success for many years, and no flood of gearbox failures have appeared.
The only argument against ATF that makes any sense is the one that Bill Hibbs makes, and that is the argument of personal preference and perceived benefit i.e. "I use < insert high dollar brand name here > oil because it makes my bike shift like a dream". Ironically, that is exactly the argument that also supports ATF use. Those of us who use it, do so because we get some benefit from it. In my case better clutch action and better cold weather shifting. If there was no benefit, I'd be using something else.
If any of you are new to this issue, keep this in mind as you read: none of the nay-sayers in this thread have offered up any serious argument to support their implication that ATF is somehow damaging to your (two stroke) gearbox. It is not. Better arguments against ATF than seen here have been posted, discussed and refuted one-by-one with reasoned, technical arguments in many previous threads. The better ones are still in the archives. In addition to the technical merits (and as Jaybird accurately points out) there has already been a large real world trial of the suitability of ATF: Thousands of actual riders using it in their bikes with success for many years, and no flood of gearbox failures have appeared.
The only argument against ATF that makes any sense is the one that Bill Hibbs makes, and that is the argument of personal preference and perceived benefit i.e. "I use < insert high dollar brand name here > oil because it makes my bike shift like a dream". Ironically, that is exactly the argument that also supports ATF use. Those of us who use it, do so because we get some benefit from it. In my case better clutch action and better cold weather shifting. If there was no benefit, I'd be using something else.
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Jackpiner57
~SPONSOR~
- Aug 11, 2002
- 356
- 0
You guys are all wrong.
Here's what I use:
1/2 pint Tequila
1/2 pint lime juice
1/4 pint Triple Sec
That way if it breaks down I can drain it into my camelback .
Here's what I use:
1/2 pint Tequila
1/2 pint lime juice
1/4 pint Triple Sec
That way if it breaks down I can drain it into my camelback .
Well said, BRush. However, I do believe that the 5 minute board room meeting on what oil to recommend probably involved the talk of what sort of deal is being offered by the oil mfg's. Initial fills and manual recommendations are a big business in both the motorcycle and auto worlds.
john stu, I would respond to your post if I had half a clue as to what it says.
john stu, I would respond to your post if I had half a clue as to what it says.
Tom Ludolff
Member
- Oct 3, 2002
- 250
- 0
Do any bike manufacturers recommend ATF??? I thought they all recommend 10W30 or 10W40. I've had Yamaha, Honda, and Kawasaki so far and they all recommend 10W30 or 10W40 motor oil. I don't buy the money plot theory. Heavier fluids lubricate gears better and ATF is way too light. Of course, heavy gear lube is too heavy for the clutch. So, motor oil is a good middle ground. In my experience, middle ground is usually best.
Manuals almost always recommend using motor oil to lube the chain, which is one of the worst choices for chain lubes available. Ever wonder why they don;t get specific on chain lube brand? It's becasue they don't have to lube the chain at the factory. If they had to lube it, you can bet there would be a specific lubricant recommended....and why? Becasue the winning chain lube supplier would offer a deal to be used and mentioned.
Don't buy the money plot theory. I happen to know, from first hand experience, that it exists. It's a bid process just like the process to be the radio chosen for a truck or the tires chosen for a bike. It's mostly about the almighty dollar, or yen as the case may be.
For those who don't believe this....you are proof that their marketing scheme works. It's not a bad thing to use recommended items, but it is a bit naive to think they are the only ones, that should or can, be used.
Don't buy the money plot theory. I happen to know, from first hand experience, that it exists. It's a bid process just like the process to be the radio chosen for a truck or the tires chosen for a bike. It's mostly about the almighty dollar, or yen as the case may be.
For those who don't believe this....you are proof that their marketing scheme works. It's not a bad thing to use recommended items, but it is a bit naive to think they are the only ones, that should or can, be used.
Bill Hibbs
~SPONSOR~
- Aug 25, 1999
- 537
- 0
;) Hahaha.. That's great! I wouldn't expect anything less from a true "Michigander" :thumb:
I guess I could possibly see trying ATF if I was having a problem with my shifting or clutch with the recommended fluid.. Honestly, the reason why I even went with the Synthetic is because I don't feel I need to change it as often. I guess I'm lazy and a sissy. :confused:
GO BUCKS!!
Tom Ludolff
Member
- Oct 3, 2002
- 250
- 0
If it was a money deal, they would specify a brand. IE: "Use Only Mobil 1 10W30" or Use only Pennzoil ATF". The manuals never specify a brand name unless it is their own. Have you tried power steering fluid or brake fluid??? I'll bet water would give you a good shift!!! Why not?? It works in a radiator??? We're all curious!!!
Many manuals are indeed brand specific.
Tom, you are being rediculous.
My "final" thoughts on ATF are that you need to be a bit more vigilant in changing your fluid if you do use ATF. And, like Bill, if you plan to ride longer between changes, perhaps a good synthetic that your gears like is a better choice. When I use ATF, it tends to make me be more conscience of frequent changes...and frequent change is the absolute best thing to rid your gearbox of particulate and contaminate. Often changing out high dollar sytnthetic oil will do the trick too, but at a higher cost.
Tom, you are being rediculous.
My "final" thoughts on ATF are that you need to be a bit more vigilant in changing your fluid if you do use ATF. And, like Bill, if you plan to ride longer between changes, perhaps a good synthetic that your gears like is a better choice. When I use ATF, it tends to make me be more conscience of frequent changes...and frequent change is the absolute best thing to rid your gearbox of particulate and contaminate. Often changing out high dollar sytnthetic oil will do the trick too, but at a higher cost.
Senior KX Rider
Super Power AssClown
- Nov 9, 1999
- 8,575
- 0
:laugh:
fwiw I have run ATF for years with great results and this argument is getting tired ;)
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