Frozen KIPS exhaust valve rod

KDteX00 · Feb 22, 2006

Well here's another sad KIPS story:

Dissasembled KIPS for cleaning and new top-end on 2000 KDX200 and discovered the right-side exhaust valve rod (that actuates the sub-valve) frozen. Very frozen. Can't get the sub-valve out to check, but it looks somewhat stripped as expected. I soaked the rod in penetrating oil and tried as best I could to pry and otherwise free the stuck rod. No luck, not much room there for prying and not much to pry against. Anyone dealt with this one before ? Cylinder is in good shape, sure would hate to abandon it without a fight.

ridejunky · Feb 22, 2006

If you have removed the mainshaft you may want to put it back in, put the right gear back on, and use a torch to heat the end of the exhaust valve rod while turning mainshaft. its worth a try.
be-careful and good luck.

KDteX00 · Feb 23, 2006

Thanks for that idea, I'll give it a try. I said in my previous post that the sub-valve might be stripped. Not sure about that yet. If the rod (what is currently stuck) is what seized, then it would not have stripped the sub-valve. In it's present condition, I can lift the sub-valve to disengage from the rod and it turns freely. It appears that the exhaust rod has stuck in the closed position. What happens when the KIPS advancer tries to open the valves ? The advancer shaft does not appear to be broken, but I have not opened the cover to check all that essembly yet. Should I be able to rotate the advancer shaft by hand ? If so, how much force is required ?

ridejunky · Feb 23, 2006

Not much, however you will be fighting the friction of the stuck exhaust valve rod . when you remove
the cap on the right side to expose the gear, examine the gear closely, the splines stop so don't rotate it the wrong way or you will be replacing that too. If you can lift the sub valve, then it isn't frozen so this part should be fine.

KDteX00 · Feb 23, 2006

The advance shaft lever is disconnected from the stuck valve rod - I was just wanting to verify that all is well below. I've only had this bike for 6 months, first KIPS check, so no telling how long this valve rod has been stuck in the closed position and resisting the shaft lever's efforts to open. Wondering if the lower part of the KIPS unit is even working. Thought maybe there was an easy way to do that by seeing if the shaft lever behaves o.k., but maybe the best thing to do after I get this valve rod unstuck is to go ahead and take the right side engine cover off and check it. With it disconnected, the shaft lever has very little up-down play and resists turning (feels pretty solid) although I've been very careful with it. Also seems to be what looks like rust (spilled coolant ?) when you pull the rubber boot up.

canyncarvr · Feb 23, 2006

re: Should I be able to rotate the advancer shaft by hand ? If so, how much force is required ?

Depends on what part your hand is on. Pretty hard to turn if you're grabbing just the shaft. With the main rod out and the actuator bolted back on, grab that and you could move it.

You can easily move it with a 4" adjustable wrench on the flat of the actuator shaft. You can also move the assembly easily (nothwithstanding seized stuff) with a ratchet on the LH main rod nut.

The bottom end part of it may well be fine. Consider that all that's happening is the spring is being allowed to move (at the activation RPM time)..and it's not moving. There shouldn't be any more stress on 'stuff' than when the spring is tensioned.

If you feel the spring resistance when you manually move the activation rod, that's a good thing. Still, the pin in the bottom of the rod could be bent or the rod could be twisted, too. When it's back together, if all the timing is OK...the valves open as far as they should..you will probably be alright.

With the main rod out and the RH rod access cover off, you may be able to get a grab on the thing with some needle-nosed vise grips? I'm not sure you would have the room to latch onto it. That grab would give you some good torque action.

You're not going to be able to see much of the subport until you get it out. Do be careful with it..they are pretty spendy. Around $45 from Ayers. $65 from the local dealer.

BTW...when you order a rod, it will NOT come with an o-ring!! That part is not called out in the parts breakdown, either. Well, I could have missed it, but I don't think so. Heck...maybe it's what is referred to as 'packing'? I didn't order that piece.....

The bike sure is going to run better with it fixed!! Guaranteed!!!

Good Luck!!

KDteX00 · Feb 23, 2006

Alright - advancer shaft seems o.k. Rotated it carefully with an adjustable wrench on the flat and could feel the spring. Lower side seems good to go. I couldn't imagine the thing being designed such that a stuck rod or valve up top would break things down below.

I soaked the stuck valve rod again with penetrating oil and then refit the main shaft and tried to rotate it with locking pliers to try to drive out the rod. Was able to put quite a bit of force on it, but it's in there. I did notice some corrosion on the inside of the rod cover hex bolt and the rod itself when I first took it apart. Somehow water or coolant (?) must have found a way in there and I fear that the entire circumference and length of the rod is corroded in real good. Gotta say I've done about all I can do. Will probably take to bike shop and see if anybody has any magic to work on it. Looking like this cylinder might be done for from one stuck kips sub-valve. What a shame. What a price tag. If anybody has any lines on a used jug, I'm probably in the market.

Thanks for all your help. I'm learning alot, at least, and looking forward to enjoying the rest of my power band when all is said and done.

ridejunky · Feb 23, 2006

Don't give up yet. you should be able to apply a reasonable amount of force when turning the main shaft and this is what draws the exhaust valve rods out. If the exhaust valve rod looks to be calcified
in, try laying the cylinder on its backside and ooz vinegar in it to soften the build up. it may take some time but for many of us all we have is time cause its winter.

captbly99 · Feb 24, 2006

KDteX00 said:
What a shame. What a price tag. If anybody has any lines on a used jug, I'm probably in the market.
.

One suggestion, if you do give up, just box up the whole thing and send it to Fredette. If he can't fix it nobody can.
Also, if you need a new jug, he can hook you up with a descent used one and keep yours for a "core".
I had to do that with mine, if I remember right, I got a used jug for $170 from him with the core charge. Not too bad.
But, you might not even need a new one. Also, I sent him all the guts to the KIPS valves and just had him install all that so I KNEW it was done right. I was worried about not having everything lined up right.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

KDteX00 · Feb 24, 2006

Great suggestions. The rod and valve is carbon-free, so the obstacle is the corrosion. The vinegar is certainly easy to try. I know I can get force on the main shaft. I'm curious about how the water/coolant got in, and looking at the head gasket that was on there noticed that the coolant port cutouts were incompletely cut out on the left and right side coolant ports. There were just 2 fairly small round holes punched in the gasket in those port areas. Is this normal ? Also, the big coolant port in the front (directly above the main exhaust port/valves) is pretty close (3/8 in. gasket width) to the sub-port valve receptacle. The gasket better seal good or ... Maybe this is why the o-ring is on this rod ?

canyncarvr · Feb 27, 2006

I didn't read the last few posts...this occurred to me over the weekend.

You cannot remove the rack without lifting the subvalve...right? It came to mind that maybe you are not doing that?

If you don't (lift the valve) I don't think the rack won't come out. No, you cannot remove the valve with the rack in, just as you cannot remove the rack with the valve in. It's a 1/2-n-1/2 deal.

That's what I've done to get mine out, anyway. It never occurred to ME to try pulling the rack out WITHOUT lifting the valve. The teeth on the rack would have to mesh to the end...and I don't think they do.

Post a reply about this? I'll check my spare cylinder to verify if comes to that.

re: Small holes

Normal.

re: Oring

I presume you mean to protect from coolant? If you have coolant there in the first place, you have a lot bigger problem than KEEPING it there! ;)

ridejunky · Feb 27, 2006

If I remember correctly the o rings were for identification purposes as well as the groove in the sub valve. The factory head gasket on mine was perfect. Maybe your top end was done and poor after
market gasket was used. Either way if the aluminum is not pitted when you get the exhaust valve rod out (notice I didn't say if) you should be ok. Oh yeah, as canyncarvr said, you must lift the sub valve for complete removal of the rod, otherwise it will move back and forth until the lack of teeth mesh.

canyncarvr · Feb 27, 2006

re: 'noticed that the coolant port cutouts were incompletely cut out on the left and right side coolant ports. There were just 2 fairly small round holes punched in the gasket in those port areas. Is this normal ?'

A reiteration for emphasis.

This IS correct.

It is NOT an 'aftermarket/poor' head gasket situation.

Let us know if it's a matter of jamming the teeth together.

Bet'cha! :ohmy:

blackduc98 · Feb 28, 2006

I assume you disassembled all KIPS components that could be disassembled, right? You removed the main shaft, the main exhaust valve, and the left-side sub-valve and rod, and of course rod-end cover screws. It will make life easier.

If you can lift out the right sub-valve completely, then you could drill the end of the rod and either tap threads in it, or use an easy-out to rotate the rod. Rotation should break loose any corrosion. Any competent machine shop should be able to do it for short money if you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself.

But before going to the trouble of drilling the rod I suggest you simply take a skinny metal drift, insert it thru the rod-end cover hole and line it up with the rod end, and give it a gentle whack. There is room to drive the rod forward just a bit - probably enough to break loose corrosion. Then use a flat-blade screw driver to push on the teeth that normally mesh with main shaft.

canyncarvr · Feb 28, 2006

This is getting more complicated than it needs to be.

re: 'If you can lift out the right sub-valve completely'

In a word, no.

That's the problem!

I still want to hear that lifting the RH subvalve part-way to disengage its teeth from the rack does NOT resolve the disassembly question.

The way it was described..

..refit the main shaft and tried to rotate it with locking pliers to try to drive out the rod. Was able to put quite a bit of force on it, but it's in there.

...is exactly what will get if you do NOT lift the drum partway to disengage the teeth.

And..as said, you cannot lift the drum out ALL the way until the rack is removed.

SOooooo...the answer is..............??

KDteX00 · Feb 28, 2006

Been away for a bit, sorry for the lack of response.

o.k. - I can lift the subvalve to disengage the teeth from the rod, and the rod will still not move at all. The rod must be removed before you can remove the subvalve, so both of them are stuck in there (for now). The subvalve will freely rotate if pulled up and disengaged from the rod. Engaging the subvalve to try to drive the rod out is no help because I can't put much torque at all on the subvalve. So, I'm putting the main shaft in, engaging the rod teeth and rotating the main shaft to try to pull the rod out from the front.

I tried a vinegar soak for a couple of days, no help. Need to get more penetration into the rod bore to get at the corrosion. The cylinder is currently at a bike shop where they are trying a combo of heat and penetrating oil, the idea being that the aluminum will expand more than the steel rod and let the penetrant in. Find out tomorrow if it works.

I also spoke with Jeff Fredette about this problem. He said he has seen one like this before and was able to fix it, and also has some good used jugs in case it won't fix. So, all in all I'm in good shape going forward.

I asked about the source of the problem (water/coolant), he said most likely a head gasket leak but that he was just guessing. When I get to that point I no doubt will be looking for ways/tips to ensure a good gasket seal to keep this from happening. Regular KIPS maintainance probably would, anyway.

Thanks for your questions & comments, I''ll let you know what happens.

blackduc98 · Feb 28, 2006

re: 'If you can lift out the right sub-valve completely'

In a word, no.

That's the problem!

Right you are. You can only lift the subvalve out part-way if the rod is still inside. But all of my suggestions still work even if the valve is only partially lifted. The important thing is to disengage from the rod's rack teeth.

I

KDteX00 · Mar 1, 2006

The rod is out ! The heat, penetrating oil, and rotating the main shaft finally worked. The rod is slightly bent (with a crack beginning to show) at the start of the forward teeth. Probably due to the force applied trying to get it out - don't think it was bent by the KIPS mechanism. Everything else, including the subvalve, is fine. So, I'm waiting on the new rod and other top-end parts and then she goes back together. I was fitting everything back in making sure all was fine and did notice that the main valve holder still has some play in it after the two holder screws (with washers) are in and tightened. Wonder if this is the source of the rattle at idle ? Seems like an offset (bent) washer would hold it tight.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and encouragement.

While I'm waiting, I'm going to tackle a rear bearing change for the first time. I don't have a puller, but have read some other posts indicating it can be done with heat and either a drift or long socket extension. Is that recommended or should I go ahead and spring for the right tools ?

canyncarvr · Mar 2, 2006

Great! Good to hear your cylinder is OK. As you found out...they aren't cheep!!!

re: bearings
Heat not generally required. Any suitable tool will work, drift, screwdriver, extension etc.

Piece of cake.

**IMO** CBR has a 'lifetime warranty' policy on their bearings. Do they last a lifetime? No. But they last a good bit longer than cheaper bearings, and the replacement process (when it comes to that) is a snap.

KDteX00 · Mar 19, 2006

Just got through breaking in the new top-end ("B" Pro-X piston in the stock "A" cylinder). Being my first one, the re-build wasn't too bad after we finally got that stuck KIPS rod out. I decided to put the piston in the cylinder first, then pin it on the rod. Was pretty easy except for the second circlips. The solid click of that little $#*!&* seating with the gap at 7:00 called for a cold one (you can tell I'm a rookie !) Also put in CBR rear bearings without any trouble. Hit the throttle hard for the first time after a careful break-in and it really is a completely different bike. Much more responsive throughout the power band, but especially notice the difference in top-end with the KIPS working properly. I liked the bike before but didn't know what I was missing. Still bone-stock except for leaner jets - will be saving lunch money for a new pipe. I'm accused often of being "master of the obvious", but it still strikes me how valuable internet forums like this are for people with common interests to share information and help each other out. I like learning how to work on the bike as much as I like riding it. Thanks again for everyone's help !

txkawboy · Oct 28, 2009

FYI to other KIPS newbies like myself: I bought my bike used, and from a SHOP, but yet I have discovered thru much trial and error that they failed to align the KIPS with the gear when installing the clutch-side crankcase cover! Luckily, it had not shorn any teeth, etc, but merely caused the KIPS to only "partially" work/partial range, aka KILL my bottom-end power...

julien_d · Oct 28, 2009

Holy 3 year old thread, Batman!

Thanks for the info....

Frozen KIPS exhaust valve rod

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