Gas Gas 250 300 vs. KTM questions

[dog2]

I am considering buying a Gas Gas or KTM 300 or 250 and have some questions about the Gas Gas bikes. I currently ride a Yamaha WR250 2 stroke that is modified for offroad. This has been a great bike, but it is about time for a new ride. I am a B-level hare scramble/enduro rider. I ride a wide variety of terrain from tight Northwest woods (slime, tree roots, mud, rocks) to desert to hare scrambles to alpine single track. I weigh 180, and 6 feet tall. I have ridden the KTM's but can't find much info on the Gas Gas bikes.

Based on this, would you recommend a Gas Gas 300 or 250?
What are the differences between 2003 Canadian models and US Dealer Edition Gas Gas?
Are either of these bike more or less immune to jetting problems.
Do the Olins forks work well off road?
Can anyone compare the Gas Gas bikes to KTM's or a well set-up YZ250?
Can you get good quality tall seat foam and taller/forward bar mounts for the GasGas to make good ergonomics for a 6 foot tall rider?
Why doesn't Gas Gas have a USA website (other than trials), product literature etc? Makes me nervous if they will be around to buy parts in 5 years.
How do Gas Gas used prices hold up compared to KTM?

Thanks

 

[Lars01]

I own an 02 KTM EXC 300 and a buddy of mine just got a Gas Gas dealership in Manitoba Canada, so I got a chance to ride an 02 EC 250 on trails last weekend. I was pretty impressed with the bike overall, it has really smooth power, a lot like my KTM, nice enduro suspension. The bike feals really small, I'm 6'2" and felt comfortable on the bike when I was sitting down but felt really cramped when I tried to stand. Unfortunitly there is no adjustment to move the bars ahead which is really needed. The hydrolic clutch pull is super easy compared to my bike and the nissan brakes are an improvement also. Ultimately though I really like my KTM and would have a hard time giving it up for the Gas Gas, although the Gas Gas is a really good trail bike, I hope this helps you a little

 

[cactusreid]

G'dayDog2: Im in b.c. canada.similar type riding I assume.I just switched off of a 96 yz/wr 250 2 smoke to a 01 EC 300. WONDERFUL!!! Im also 6' 190lbs/intermediate-senior rider.If your like me and loved your wr,then the ec 300 will suit you. Everything that is good about the wr( wide trany ratio,low end grunt,big flywheel,nice 2 stroke hit up high in the power,good tractable easy to ride power) the EC 300 has these in "spades". Im still amazed at where that bike can go with relative ease. It has a huge smooth low/mid type of power delivery,with a nice hit up high when you need it. I've riden the ktm exc 300 2 stroke as well,and much prefer the GG. the ktm has a big mid range punch that I find tireing after a short ride in the tight stuff.My bike has a set of fat bars and risers on it and I ride standing up most of the time.It's that comfortable. parts supply/dealer support seems to be great in canada-so I would assume that in USA you should have no problems. Good luck.

 

[euro gasgas]

Originally posted by dog2
I am considering buying a Gas Gas or KTM 300 or 250 and have some questions about the Gas Gas bikes. I currently ride a Yamaha WR250 2 stroke that is modified for offroad. This has been a great bike, but it is about time for a new ride. I am a B-level hare scramble/enduro rider. I ride a wide variety of terrain from tight Northwest woods (slime, tree roots, mud, rocks) to desert to hare scrambles to alpine single track. I weigh 180, and 6 feet tall. I have ridden the KTM's but can't find much info on the Gas Gas bikes.

Based on this, would you recommend a Gas Gas 300 or 250?

Probably the 300 - but depends on what you prefer - the 250 has more zip and needs to be ridden a little more aggressively than the 300. The 250 revs 1000 rpm higher than the 300. The 300 comes with a reed spacer to smooth the power off the bottom.

What are the differences between 2003 Canadian models and US Dealer Edition Gas Gas?

The US EC version is identical to the Canadian EC version. The U.S. Dealer Edition (DE) has a lighter ignition and flywheel than the EC and comes with Michelin S-12 tires front and rear instead of DOT legal Michelin Enduro Comp IIIs. The lighter ignition will let the bike rev more quickly but lacks flywheel for tighter situations. I am from the Northwest too and prefer the EC. There are bolt on flywheel weights available for the DE model if you prefer to go that way. The EC will have more flywheel effect than a DE with a flywheel.

Are either of these bike more or less immune to jetting problems.

For the gasgas, the 250s are spec'ed to come with a #6 slide - the 300 comes with a 7.0 slide, which I think works better -> although I have heard of '03 250s coming from the factory with a #7 slide. The stock jetting is not good - most go with jetting kit from LTR (Les Tinius near you in port orchard, WA - he used to live in Redmond, maybe you know him). See www.lt-racing.com for details.

Do the Ohlins forks work well off road?

The ohlins forks work very well off road -> very plush. They have three bushings in the fork instead of two, with two "fixed bushings" - makes for less stiction and a plusher fork. I have the '01 model, for '03 they redesigned the compression piston. The '03 piston and valving uses a shim stack with a spring, Les at LTR described the new compression valving to me - sounds like it will blow off on sharp hits and hold up on slow speed stuff very very well. In stock form, the ohlins work very well; They have a mild mid-valve that can be lightened up for even plusher action in NW roots and rocks. The ohlins forks option do add to the resale value and market-ability of the bike (I was thinking about selling it and had quite a few people interested - other gasgas owners who wanted to step up to the ohlins forks and desired an EC).

The WP forks are well built but are harsher than the Ohlins out of the box. LTR can make the WP fork work very well if you decide to go that way -> he does a couple of machine operations and lightens up the mid-valve to improve flow and "plushen 'em up". If you are capable of revalving the fork yourself -> you can order up a lighter rebound checkvalve spring from race-tech to lighten up the mid-valve (also referred to as "disabling the mid-valve") and "get part of the way there".

Can anyone compare the Gas Gas bikes to KTM's or a well set-up YZ250?

The power delivery on the GasGas is very smooth with a very flat torque curve and a linear horsepower delivery. In comparison, the KTM hits in the middle making some say it is harder to control in the slime. You can find a dyno curve comparing a KTM and GasGas that illustrates this point here -> http://www.smackovermotorsports.com/html/dyno_test.htm

The ergonomics on the GasGas are very different from the KTM. The GasGas turns much more easily than the KTM. For '03, GasGas increased the rake slightly and moved the engine forward 10mm to give the front end "more bite". I have ridden an '03 ec250 and it seemed like they reached an optimum compromise between stability and carvability for '03.

Can you get good quality tall seat foam and taller/forward bar mounts for the GasGas to make good ergonomics for a 6 foot tall rider?

I maintain the GasGas Rider's Club website which has both lists of all aftermarket parts that are available and also a crossover parts list (e.g. CR brake pads fit, bearings, plastic, etc.). Go to www.gasgasrider.org.

To specifically answer your question -> BRP makes a top triple clamp with the mounting hole moved forward. It also has nine different bar mounts available that lets you move the bars up and forward to the degree you desire. See www.lt-racing.com for more details. Smackover Motorsports (www.smackovermotorsports.com) sells tall seat foam along with gripper seat covers for the gasgas. I think it is made by Ceet.

Why doesn't Gas Gas have a USA website (other than trials), product literature etc? Makes me nervous if they will be around to buy parts in 5 years.

The distributorship went through a change of hands last year. The gasgas factory went direct on distributorship. In the process, they have dropped retail prices significantly along with parts prices. They received a significant amount of financing and built a new factory to increase production. They did have three different distributors into the U.S. (trials, trials parts and enduro), in the future they will all be rolled under one company, GasGas Motors of America in Tampa, Florida.

The U.S. distributorship was supposed to have a website up months ago. It will be at www.gas-gas.net. I think the person developing it for them hasn't delivered...

For now, enduro bike descriptions along with parts manuals, etc. can be found on the gasgas factory website at www.gasgasmotos.es.

How do Gas Gas used prices hold up compared to KTM?

Re-sale on a used gasgas hasn't been as good as a KTM. Mainly due to lack of name recognition. But also, I think being a "exotic niche bike", the person who would want to buy one, would also want to buy one new versus used. I think that will change in the coming year -> the prices are now very competitive with KTM and GasGas is increasing it's marketing efforts (recent articles in dirt rider, REV and trail rider, etc.). With the prices dropping and parts prices very reasonable, they won't be in the "exotic" category any longer, but I still own a great bike...

jeff
'01 ec300 w/ ohlins forks
www.gasgasrider.org GasGas Rider's Club

 

[dog2]

Thanks for the great responses. Just the type of info I was looking for. At this point, the 300 EC sounds perfect.

Cactusreid- Did you make mods to your bike to get the ergonomics right for you?

AM I correct to assume that the flywheel on the EC could be changed to the lighter version if needed?

 

[cactusreid]

Dog2: The only ergo mods on my ec300 are a set of bar risers(about 1" tall) that the previous owner added. He is a buddy of mine-an xmotocrosser,and he's about 250lbs on a 5'8' body. He still goes like hell,I can only imagine how fast he would be if he were slimmer.There are lots of bars out there with a fairly tall rise in them so I can't see you having much of a problem adjusting the GG to fit you.I don't give a hoot about resale $ as I plan on keeping my 01 for at least 5yrs. GasGas has really built a tough well thought out bullet proof bike.

 

[cactusreid]

I believe the flywheel changes are relative easy-but if you ride a lot of bush/long snakey hills/swampy/muddy /wet rooty stuff-you'll never even think of giving up that EC flywheel once you get used to it. Don't be fooled if you get a chance to try out a EC-they"feel" slow because the power is so smooth-but going from A to B you'll be a lot quicker with less effort.

 

[JTT]

You can change flywheels using OEM parts if you wish, no problem.

 

[BP]

check out the may issue of dirt rider magazine . it has the gas gas 250 and the ktm 250 & 300. check out the april issue of dirt bike magazine for a test on the gas gas 300.

 

[gasgasman]

Here's my favorite GG shoot out.

http://www.adbmag.com/html/pages/biketest/gasgas.html

 

[Offroadr]

lots off good threads on here, just do a search or check the archives
for a couple threads I put there

 

[KTMSMITH]

My buddy has an 03 300 gasser. I have ridden it several times and it is a superb machine. I have owned several KTM 300 exc's. The gasser is everybit as good. The biggest differnece is in the motor department. The gasser is super smooth almost electric. The KTM has a definate hit. Suspension is more plush on the gasser. Handling is about the same. I would say the gasser is a softer bike overall, the KTM has a harder edge to it. Both are great bikes, but I think the KTM would have better resale potential.

 

[matt ruiz]

Be different buy the gas gas 300. You will love either make gas gas or ktm

 

[roostafish]

I've heard lots of good about this LTR jetting kit and power valve cover. What is so magic about the jet kit? What is it? Is is simply jets, or is there a slide involved? Anybody know what the needle part # and jet sizes are? Is there a kit for specific regions?

Thank you.

 

[RBW]

Nothing magic about the jet kit.LTR has just figured out the proper set up and packaged it as a kit. He cleverly grinds off the part number on the needle so we can't buy it ourselves.If you really wanted to find out the needle size I'm sure you could measure it and figure it out. But, who cares? Let the guy make his modest $35, or whatever he charges. The approach he's taken to jetting the bike is totally different than stock. The pilot jet is way bigger and the needle way thicker. The performance in my bike is flawless. None of the bikes I have ever owned, over the years, has been jetted this crisply. I was always trying to dial in my jetting on my GasGas. I would get close, but not perfect. Finally, the LTR jet kit and I haven't thought about it since.
"You don't pay the T.V. repair man to kick your T.V. You pay him to KNOW WHERE TO KICK IT." Buy the jet kit. You won't be sorry!

Rob

 

[DahlElama]

Amen on the LTR jetting. Les set me up with a kit specifically for the climate and altitudes I ride. Custom tailored for me all included in the price. The PV cover compliments the jetting kit well. Get on the GasGas brotha...

 

[roostafish]

I certainly don't have a problem paying for the kit, I just ride a variety of places, and the kit could be moot. I ride locally at 1200-3500 feet. I also ride quite frequently at 4000-5000 feet in Central Oregon, then on occasion I'll ride on the coast at less than 100 feet. Of course there's Tillamook State Forest, and it's probably 700-3000 feet. So is there a base line, then jets to change from there? I do think $35 would be worth it to not research it myself, but we're talking lots of combinations away from home.

 

[sweden_345]

Of course the Ohlins forks/suspension works very well for off road. Ohlins come from Sweden !!!!!!!!!

 

[sledman]

A simple jetting change will make the KTM 300 just as liquid......

 

[euro gasgas]

Originally posted by roostafish
I certainly don't have a problem paying for the kit, I just ride a variety of places, and the kit could be moot. I ride locally at 1200-3500 feet. I also ride quite frequently at 4000-5000 feet in Central Oregon, then on occasion I'll ride on the coast at less than 100 feet. Of course there's Tillamook State Forest, and it's probably 700-3000 feet. So is there a base line, then jets to change from there? I do think $35 would be worth it to not research it myself, but we're talking lots of combinations away from home.

There is a baseline - I think it is near sea-level at 60-70 degrees. I am from portland and ride the same terrain that you do. I am riding the China Hat ISDE in eastern oregon at the end of the month (ave 3500 feet?) When the jetting is dialed in properly (with LTR kit installed) you can go off the compensation charts in the manual to adjust jetting for altitude and temp and you will be very close.

If you give Les a call he will set you up for different altitude ranges and then charge you for any extra jets you order along with the kit... You can find his phone number on www.lt-racing.com. I'll be calling him to check on baseline specs for china hat. I'll check jetting and do fine tuning on saturday (april 26), I'll let you know what I ended up using there...

jeff
www.gasgasrider.org GasGas Rider's Club

 

[MR.WR]

Roost,

I put the LTR kit in the 200 last year and it works great! Drop the $$.$$ and you'll feel the difference.....


Rick
AMA
D-36
99 GasGas EC200

 

[roostafish]

Sounds like the way to go. I'll be at the China Hat ISDE as well. I'll look for another Gas Gas, maybe we can discuss jetting.

 

[gasgasman]

Les is always gathering info from different riders around the country.
One of my fellow GG riders was having a slight jetting concern on his XC300 and Les sent him a different needle at no cost to correct his concern. :worship:

I don't know about you guys. The last thing I want to do is, mess with jetting instead of riding. Les has already done the homework for you.

 

[matt ruiz]

Hey this is turning into a LTR jetting is awesome thread. I just purchased my 03 DE 300 from smackover. I was planing on a few rides before I get my jetting kit. This way I will be able to appreciate the improvement. All this good Gas Gas advice and Dog2 is probably leaning towards the KTM... Good luck with your purchase Dog2...

 

[gas gas jack]

there's a "new" top triple clamp on the market- perfect for those taller GG riders. it's made by bill stavish, at checkpoint machine, and thoroughly tested by his son matt (ex factory GG national racer). it's a beautiful piece of CNC billet, which has an adjustable bar placement; oversize bar mounts rotate forward over an "arced" base, which more effectively pulls taller riders forward on their bikes. in my "testing", it's perfect for my 6'2" height- makes for a very "relaxed" riding stance! we've been modifying stock clamps, for taller riders, since '99, but this is FAR superior in function, and the machining quality is flawless- fits perfect! comes with pinch bolts mounted on the front side for bark buster mount options too! this will be available thru GG dealers, or call bill at 612-757-6271(cst) or email me at [email protected]