have you heard

[flyingfuzzball]

i guess most people have already heard but i couldnt find a post that said it.

i went to my local honda dealer (cyclemax in PA) to go get some parts for some routine maitmence. i was talking to some one of the salesmen and he told me that honda has announced that for 2008 (i think) they will no longer be making a 2stroke.

they have 4 strokes for every class now. the 450r the 250r and the 150r are all replacing the 250 the 125 and the 85

bad news to honda 2stroke lovers gonna have to shift brands....

 

[76GMC1500]

That's been the story since about 2 years ago.

 

[Dekester]

Honda is betting the farm on the 4 strokes and I hope they choke on it. Honda is already crying about the possible displacement changes from 450 to 350 in the 250 2 stroke class. They said they will remove themselves from racing if that happens. F'in crybabies. :blah:

Honda (corporate) tried to corner and manipulate the market and I hope they burn for it. They say that they will leave racing because they know the 450f (and 250f for that matter) have an unfair HANDICAP (yes, get it straight, it is a HANDICAP in the TRUEST sense of the word) for that class of racing and a 350f (or a 200f) would lose the dominance the 4 strokes were unfairly given on a silver platter.

4 strokes are being pushed hard because of financial reasons. The dealers want the 4 strokes because they know the 5-10 fold increase in parts dollars spent on the 4 strokes. They also know that their service department will see much more volume due to the fact that the average 4 stroke rider will not be able to service the complex 4 stroke with the many moving parts and complexities involved in the maintenance and repair.

I have not seen a 2 stroke for sale at my local Yamaha/Honda dealer for over 2 years. They are not buying them because they want to sell the 4 strokes and make the goldmine on parts and service. Several of my friends noticed the same thing. I have inquired numerous times as well as some of my friends as to the lack of 2 strokes for sale. They say nobody even asks about the 2 strokes anymore. LIARS! I know this to not be true. I personally tested this dealership and know they are lying. This is propagana and lies for their financial gain and your financial loss.

I feel the dealers are artificially and deliberately creating this problem for financial gain. I know for a fact this is true in my area. If you want to be manipulated and taken for your hard earned money, by all means buy a high performance 4 stroke.

I feel the real popularity in 4 strokes is with people who are not experienced riders and may not have the skills, patience, or desire to ever develop those skills. A perfect example is a father and son who want to put around a few weekends a year. 2 strokes are not meant to be "putted" around. Pure and simple. So in this application, the 4 stroke is a good choice. Do they need titanium valved, high performance, and high maintenance 4 strokes? No, they do not. They would not even push the TT-R's to their limit on any consistant basis. Male ego comes into play here. My cousin has 6 CRF's for him and his family. Do ANY of them need a CRF? HELL NO! Do any of them push those bikes to their limit at all. HELL NO! I smoke him and will ALWAYS smoke him.

The other popularity in 4 strokes is due to the unfair handicap of the 4 strokes. If they were equalized, more people would ride 2 strokes. Race maintenance is WAY lower on a 2 stroke than a 4 stroke. If they were balanced performance wise (like 350f vs 250T), the 2 stroke would be more dominant due to maintenance costs alone.

I see people who want to ride track or race and buy 2 strokes. They then complain that they cant ride them and that they want a 4 stroke. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SKILLS TO RIDE A 2 STROKE, YOU NEED TO RETHINK YOUR REASONS FOR RIDING. Riding a 2 stroke should be like a "rights of passage". If you can competently ride a 2 stroke, then you could think about riding a 4 stroke (on track or track racing) for whatever reason.

I think that 4 strokes have a place/dominance in desert racing as well. I think if there were mass produced and reasonably priced modern 500 2 strokes (think cr500AF but more affordable), that might change too.

I am sure that people are going to blindly disagree with what I am saying. Please read what I stated again with an open mind before posting.

 

[kawicam250]

That's been the story since about 2 years ago.

yep, most everyone knows about it.

 

[Rotorranch]

It really has nothing to do with the financial side of things, as stated in the earlier post. It all has to do with the EPA and tree hugging greeners! The EPA has put standards into effect that basically dooms 2 strokes. Did you notice that 4 strokes are much more prevalent in outboard boat engines? How about the 4 stroke weed eaters?

The trend will continue to 4 strokes, as the EPA plans the demise of the dirty 2 strokes. Check this out if you don't believe it: http://www.rbbi.com/desks/regs/ca2439/toxic.htm

Or just do a search on EPA 2 stroke ban.

Rotor

 

[VintageDirt]

It really has nothing to do with the financial side of things, as stated in the earlier post. It all has to do with the EPA and tree hugging greeners! ...

Not necessarily true. When has anyone ever done an emission test on a race bike? Why ban a particular technology if the goal is lower emissions? How can there be compliance with a standard if no standard has been set?

Look at the clean burning two stroke outboard that Evinrude makes. (I think it's Evinrude) It's lighter cleaner and cheaper than the competitors 4 strokes.

Definitely more to the story than emissions.

 

[lynch racing]

Honda 2 strokes

Honda really hasn`t put any effort into 2 strokes for years,..the CR80-(85) basically the 1986 model, the 125 downhill from the glory days of the early 90`s, the CR250 never really sorted out, and the :boss: KING :boss: , the CR500, neglected and died a hero`s death but it`s ghosts are still around and will never go away....Hopefully the future of the CRF`s( without the ghost!)

 

[lynch racing]

Honda is betting the farm on the 4 strokes and I hope they choke on it. Honda is already crying about the possible displacement changes from 450 to 350 in the 250 2 stroke class. They said they will remove themselves from racing if that happens. F'in crybabies. :blah:

Honda (corporate) tried to corner and manipulate the market and I hope they burn for it. They say that they will leave racing because they know the 450f (and 250f for that matter) have an unfair HANDICAP (yes, get it straight, it is a HANDICAP in the TRUEST sense of the word) for that class of racing and a 350f (or a 200f) would lose the dominance the 4 strokes were unfairly given on a silver platter.

4 strokes are being pushed hard because of financial reasons. The dealers want the 4 strokes because they know the 5-10 fold increase in parts dollars spent on the 4 strokes. They also know that their service department will see much more volume due to the fact that the average 4 stroke rider will not be able to service the complex 4 stroke with the many moving parts and complexities involved in the maintenance and repair.

I have not seen a 2 stroke for sale at my local Yamaha/Honda dealer for over 2 years. They are not buying them because they want to sell the 4 strokes and make the goldmine on parts and service. Several of my friends noticed the same thing. I have inquired numerous times as well as some of my friends as to the lack of 2 strokes for sale. They say nobody even asks about the 2 strokes anymore. LIARS! I know this to not be true. I personally tested this dealership and know they are lying. This is propagana and lies for their financial gain and your financial loss.

I feel the dealers are artificially and deliberately creating this problem for financial gain. I know for a fact this is true in my area. If you want to be manipulated and taken for your hard earned money, by all means buy a high performance 4 stroke.

I feel the real popularity in 4 strokes is with people who are not experienced riders and may not have the skills, patience, or desire to ever develop those skills. A perfect example is a father and son who want to put around a few weekends a year. 2 strokes are not meant to be "putted" around. Pure and simple. So in this application, the 4 stroke is a good choice. Do they need titanium valved, high performance, and high maintenance 4 strokes? No, they do not. They would not even push the TT-R's to their limit on any consistant basis. Male ego comes into play here. My cousin has 6 CRF's for him and his family. Do ANY of them need a CRF? HELL NO! Do any of them push those bikes to their limit at all. HELL NO! I smoke him and will ALWAYS smoke him.

The other popularity in 4 strokes is due to the unfair handicap of the 4 strokes. If they were equalized, more people would ride 2 strokes. Race maintenance is WAY lower on a 2 stroke than a 4 stroke. If they were balanced performance wise (like 350f vs 250T), the 2 stroke would be more dominant due to maintenance costs alone.

I see people who want to ride track or race and buy 2 strokes. They then complain that they cant ride them and that they want a 4 stroke. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SKILLS TO RIDE A 2 STROKE, YOU NEED TO RETHINK YOUR REASONS FOR RIDING. Riding a 2 stroke should be like a "rights of passage". If you can competently ride a 2 stroke, then you could think about riding a 4 stroke (on track or track racing) for whatever reason.

I think that 4 strokes have a place/dominance in desert racing as well. I think if there were mass produced and reasonably priced modern 500 2 strokes (think cr500AF but more affordable), that might change too.

I am sure that people are going to blindly disagree with what I am saying. Please read what I stated again with an open mind before posting.

You are on it...100% agree and you took the words right out of my mouth :cool: We race the EM over here and they formed a sub-class this year in the UEM for 2 strokes, the talk in the pits is that many teams next year are going to field the 144`s( KTM,TM,Yamaha) and expand the riders on the teams due to the lower cost and they are able to increase the sponsors exposure with the extra riders,( a win-win situation) and they smoke the 250f`s, not too many years until the end... :)

 

[Owens187]

Dekester hit it right on the head! :cool:

 

[kawicam250]

Not necessarily true. When has anyone ever done an emission test on a race bike? Why ban a particular technology if the goal is lower emissions? How can there be compliance with a standard if no standard has been set?

Look at the clean burning two stroke outboard that Evinrude makes. (I think it's Evinrude) It's lighter cleaner and cheaper than the competitors 4 strokes.

Definitely more to the story than emissions.

ditto, i think a chunk of the 4T switch, along with emissions, is for financial reasons. like what was pointed out earlier, MFG's and dealers will make much more money of the maintenance costs and the slightly higher initial costs of the 4T's. thats my prespective.

 

[adam728]

Everyone has their own take on why 4 strokes are taking over. Here's mine

The displacement advatage. Easy enough to see that one, 450f vs 250, 250f vs 125. With the increased displacement a broader powerband can be created to make the bike easier to ride. Many people call it being lazy, I say its an easy way to be faster. If you are someone calling 4 stroke riders lazy, then you better be on a non-powervalved 125 with dual rear shocks, or else you are just using technology to be lazy.

Emissions. No, they don't test closed course bikes, but you can bet its coming. Emissions are getting tighter and tighter on everything. Why not have a platform in place that can be easily adopted to pass? I work in the small engine world and get to see the 2 vs 4 thing daily. It's much more difficult to get 2 cycles to pass consistently in mass production (these run a cat). It doesn't take much of a jetting variation to bomb one over the limit. The 4 cycles on the other hand run so well that even a pig rich one will usually pass the bar without issue. Do the manufactures want to built a more complex, harder to assemble, more expensive to manufacture engine? NO!!! Trust me!

Magazines, other riders, televised races, all push 4 stroke bikes way more than the 2 strokes. There are good articles and such on 2 strokes and the advantages, but I am guessing 90%+ of the stuff in magazines today is 4 stroke, so I don't know how you can blame dealers for the rise of 4 cycles. I know when I was a mechanic at a dealer we much prefered the 2 cycle stuff. If Joe Blow doesn't want to work on his overly complex 4 stroke at home, do you think the local grease monkey really wants to do it? Granted, a challenge is fun, but a relaxing day of changing reeds or tossing in 2 stroke top ends is real nice too. The guy spinning the wenches doesn't get any more $$$ for working on one bike compared to another. People come in looking for 4 cycles, so you carry what sells, right?

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SKILLS TO RIDE A 2 STROKE, YOU NEED TO RETHINK YOUR REASONS FOR RIDING.

Possibly the most ignorant thing said on this forum. If you take offense to that, great! Not everyone is a racer, not everyone needs to push their bike to it's limits and beyond. Most people are in this sport for FUN, who cares what they ride, as long as they ride. If we want everyone who doesn't have A-class skills and taking their riding with a heart-attack-serious-attitude to hang up their helmet, then the sport is done. If a 4 stroke works best for someone, then let them ride a 4 stroke! No one is a poser for not having 2 stroke experience.

[ /rant ]

 

[rmc_olderthandirt]

Not necessarily true. When has anyone ever done an emission test on a race bike?.

It isn't necessary to test every bike. The generic two stroke engine is horrible at emissions. It is well understood, and is not being debated.

Four strokes, in general, are much better but can still produce unacceptable amounts of emissions unless they are adjusted properly. Unfortunately, the best adjustments for performance are NOT the best adjustments for emissions so it is pointless to test a race bike, it isn't going to pass.

Why ban a particular technology if the goal is lower emissions? How can there be compliance with a standard if no standard has been set?

You ban a technology because it is known to create unacceptable amounts of emissions. There is a standard.

Look at the clean burning two stroke outboard that Evinrude makes. (I think it's Evinrude) It's lighter cleaner and cheaper than the competitors 4 strokes.

I am sure that if the bike manufacturers built a dirt bike with the same technology that they could get it approved for use. The question is would anyone buy it? The direct injection two cycle outboards have not done very well as far as reliability and customer satisfaction. Applying that technology to a dirt bike would eliminate most of the reasons that dirt bikes want two strokes:

1) Two strokes are simple, easy to maintain: NOT with direct injection!

2) Two strokes are lightweight: I don't think that you are going to run a direct injection fuel stroke off a magneto ignition system. The fuel pump requirements and electronic fuel injection systems are going to require a battery. Your weight savings will get decimated pretty quickly when you add a battery.

3) Low maintenance: You have just added fuel pumps, injectors, electronics, etc.


The classic two stroke outboard has already been banned for sale in the US. Two stroke PWCs (Jetskis) are not only banned for new sales in many areas but there is a growing number of lakes where even the existing ones are not allowed to operate. Two strokes for most lawn/garden equipment has been banned, and what's left is fighting a losing battle.

In California, motorcycles that don't meet the EPA requirements are being significantly penalized by restricting when and where they can ride. There are no two strokes that are eligible for the "green sticker" and even some four strokes don't qualify (The Yamaha YZ-450F, as an example).

The standards are set and the writing is on the wall. I suspect that once any of the major bike manufacturers stops making two strokes that the loss of lobbying power will create a domino effect.

Rod

 

[VintageDirt]

........Rod

Well then I stand corrected.

 

[XRpredator]

Well then I stand corrected.

two strokes suck.

 

[VintageDirt]

two strokes suck.

I already said Uncle.

 

[Dekester]

Adam,

This is EXACTLY why I said "I am sure that people are going to blindly disagree with what I am saying. Please read what I stated again with an open mind before posting." ;)

You took a different meaning from that statement than I intended. I clearly stated that the 4 stroke was a good choice (although not necessarily high performance/high maintenance cost 4 strokes) for the recreational rider. I do not see how you inferred the whole "hang it up thing". See my father and son example.

I meant that you should rethink what type of riding you should do, not quit the sport altogether. For example, if someone does not have the physical/mental skills to be able to ride a 2 stroke effectively, maybe they should not try to ride track/race. Those same physical/mental skills are similar to the quick reaction skills needed to be safe (for themselves and others) and effective on the track. The "ease of entry" with the 4 stroke allows people with less skills (less riding time to develop balance, mental quickness, etc.) to go out on tracks that are becoming more complex and dangerous. A very bad combination in my opinion.

To further clarify, I am not bagging on people who have switched from 2t to 4t in order to take advantage of a unfair handicap against the 2t's. Racing is about winning for most people, even if it is on something that is not as much fun to ride (subjective) or as cheap to maintain as a 2t (objective).

I also never said or implied someone was lazy for riding a 4 stroke. You used the word "easier". If someone takes the "easier" route, there is probably a word to describe that action. That adjective would vary from person to person and I am not touching that with a 10 foot pole.

In regards to working on bikes and the mechanics perspective, I do not think that the owner of the dealer cares whether the mechanic is doing easy work or difficult work. He is a capitalist and is out to maximize profits. Maximum profits are clearly obtained from 4 stroke maintenance.

Dealers ARE a big part of the whole 4 stroke thing. They say 2 strokes are not selling. OF COURSE THEY ARE NOT SELLING. HOW CAN THEY SELL IF THE DEALER HASN'T STOCKED A TWO STROKE IN 2 YEARS (my local example)? Me and several friends have REPEATEDLY asked this dealer about 2 strokes and they say no one asks about 2 strokes and then goes on and on about the 4 stroke. GEE, I WONDER WHY THEY ARE PUSHING THE 4$ $TROKE SO HARD?

 

[mox69]

While the remarks about 2-strokes in this thread are generally true, this is because 2-stroke engines have been neglected by the manufacturers.

Head on over to Evinrude's website and look at their E-tec engines. This is proof positive that two-strokes are not dead, the engines just need to be update to 2007 technology. Our new boat has one of these DI 2-strokes, it is very sweet.

-They fall well into acceptable emissions standards.
-They are still less weight than a four-stroke. A small battery still weighs less than all of the extra parts on a four stroke. You can't really count injectors, because your loosing the carb. I'm 100% positive a battery less system could be made too, giving some creative engineering. All that I care about is the HP / weight ratio.


While it's hard to find 100% proof of the manufacturers financial motivation, it makes logical sense. What publicly traded company wouldn't want to sell their products for more money if they could justify it? It's no secret that the OEM's make more money off of 4 strokes, even in the after market section.

I wish one of the big guys would step up and update their two-strokes. There IS a market for them.

 

[XRpredator]

I wish one of the big guys would step up and update their two-strokes. There IS a market for them.

luddites.

 

[flyingfuzzball]

ok no matter how you look at it 2 strokes produce more emmisions. its cuz the burning oil. burning oil is ALWAYS gonna smoke. you cant stop that. also 2strokes (not always) but sometimes spit little bits of oil out. this is landing on the ground and polutting.
so partly it is because of the epa. i bet in 10 years there will be no more new 2 strokes. they will not be manufactured.

w/ the power yea 2strokes but out lots more power but i think the way they are making 4 strokes they will soon beable to run close to the same displacement. my 150r puts out a load of power. enough to beat my friends kx85 and my other friend's 105.

for those who say that a 2 stroke takes more skill it does. i have riden both 2 and 4 strokes and think the 2 is harder but the 4 is just as fun. (that is to me)

lets face it 2strokes all eat gas. they suck in twice as much as a 4 does. gas is going up in prices now its about 3 bucks a gallon for regular and a little more for 91 octane which is what my friends us w/ their mix. how much does premix oil cost (i havent bought it for awhile) w/ the 2stroke you are buying gas and the oil then burning it fast. my bike (150r) runs 91 octane and doesnt use to much of it. so in gas and oil you are probably paying as much as some of the repairs in a racing for 4stroke.

im not saying one is TRULY better then one or the other. they both have advantages and disadvantages. i just tend to favor the 4 strokes cuz thats what i like.

and w/ what adam said ... i see what you mean that a racing 4 stroke is easier to ride but they still take quite a bit more still then a trail 4 stroke to ride and if you are going to the track then chances are you know this

 

[2strokerfun]

I don't think that you are going to run a direct injection fuel stroke off a magneto ignition system. The fuel pump requirements and electronic fuel injection systems are going to require a battery. Your weight savings will get decimated pretty quickly when you add a battery.

Doesn't Montesa do that now on their trials bike?? No battery, but probably a pretty heavy flywheel for trials.

 

[Dekester]

luddites.

LOL! I had to look that one up.

One might disagree about a major DECREASE in HP/CC ratio along with an INCREASE in the WEIGHT/HP ratio qualifying as a technological advancement. :bang:

 

[adam728]

Adam,

I apologze for taking some of what you said wrong (like hanging it up). The "lazy" thing is something that has come up on this forum many, many times by other users and just irks me. If you find something that is an advantage for yourself, use it! People that talk about 4 strokes, auto clutches, and other such things as cheating, or a lazy way out, should all be riding 1972 Penton 125's, since they are obviously against advancement of any kind!

I still don't agree about dealers killing the 2 strokes. You and your friend may have asked repeatidly about them, but how many dozens of other people every day come in wanting a 4 stroke? People who really want to buy a new 2 stroke will, regardless if the local dealer carries them or not. I don't think most would walk in a dealer to buy a KX250 and then go "oh, you don't have one, I guess I'll take a KXF450 instead". 2 stroke fans will ride 2 strokes. It's just that there are much fewer 2 stroke fans now days.


I can't believe I've been defending 4 strokes here today. Just for that I'm going to go look at a YZ250 from Craigslist after work today. :laugh:

 

[kingbrian]

just out of curiousity are they only eliminating the smokers here in the US? or is this world wide?

 

[Rotorranch]

Everyone has their own take on why 4 strokes are taking over. Here's mine

The displacement advatage. Easy enough to see that one, 450f vs 250, 250f vs 125. With the increased displacement a broader powerband can be created to make the bike easier to ride. Many people call it being lazy, I say its an easy way to be faster. If you are someone calling 4 stroke riders lazy, then you better be on a non-powervalved 125 with dual rear shocks, or else you are just using technology to be lazy.

Emissions. No, they don't test closed course bikes, but you can bet its coming. Emissions are getting tighter and tighter on everything. Why not have a platform in place that can be easily adopted to pass? I work in the small engine world and get to see the 2 vs 4 thing daily. It's much more difficult to get 2 cycles to pass consistently in mass production (these run a cat). It doesn't take much of a jetting variation to bomb one over the limit. The 4 cycles on the other hand run so well that even a pig rich one will usually pass the bar without issue. Do the manufactures want to built a more complex, harder to assemble, more expensive to manufacture engine? NO!!! Trust me!

Magazines, other riders, televised races, all push 4 stroke bikes way more than the 2 strokes. There are good articles and such on 2 strokes and the advantages, but I am guessing 90%+ of the stuff in magazines today is 4 stroke, so I don't know how you can blame dealers for the rise of 4 cycles. I know when I was a mechanic at a dealer we much prefered the 2 cycle stuff. If Joe Blow doesn't want to work on his overly complex 4 stroke at home, do you think the local grease monkey really wants to do it? Granted, a challenge is fun, but a relaxing day of changing reeds or tossing in 2 stroke top ends is real nice too. The guy spinning the wenches doesn't get any more $$$ for working on one bike compared to another. People come in looking for 4 cycles, so you carry what sells, right?



Possibly the most ignorant thing said on this forum. If you take offense to that, great! Not everyone is a racer, not everyone needs to push their bike to it's limits and beyond. Most people are in this sport for FUN, who cares what they ride, as long as they ride. If we want everyone who doesn't have A-class skills and taking their riding with a heart-attack-serious-attitude to hang up their helmet, then the sport is done. If a 4 stroke works best for someone, then let them ride a 4 stroke! No one is a poser for not having 2 stroke experience.

[ /rant ]

Somebody sees the writing on the wall!

Watch for the Black Helicopters! ( Two of them flew over my house today! ) :nener:

Rotor

 

[Rotorranch]

It isn't necessary to test every bike. The generic two stroke engine is horrible at emissions. It is well understood, and is not being debated.

Four strokes, in general, are much better but can still produce unacceptable amounts of emissions unless they are adjusted properly. Unfortunately, the best adjustments for performance are NOT the best adjustments for emissions so it is pointless to test a race bike, it isn't going to pass.



You ban a technology because it is known to create unacceptable amounts of emissions. There is a standard.



I am sure that if the bike manufacturers built a dirt bike with the same technology that they could get it approved for use. The question is would anyone buy it? The direct injection two cycle outboards have not done very well as far as reliability and customer satisfaction. Applying that technology to a dirt bike would eliminate most of the reasons that dirt bikes want two strokes:

1) Two strokes are simple, easy to maintain: NOT with direct injection!

2) Two strokes are lightweight: I don't think that you are going to run a direct injection fuel stroke off a magneto ignition system. The fuel pump requirements and electronic fuel injection systems are going to require a battery. Your weight savings will get decimated pretty quickly when you add a battery.

3) Low maintenance: You have just added fuel pumps, injectors, electronics, etc.


The classic two stroke outboard has already been banned for sale in the US. Two stroke PWCs (Jetskis) are not only banned for new sales in many areas but there is a growing number of lakes where even the existing ones are not allowed to operate. Two strokes for most lawn/garden equipment has been banned, and what's left is fighting a losing battle.

In California, motorcycles that don't meet the EPA requirements are being significantly penalized by restricting when and where they can ride. There are no two strokes that are eligible for the "green sticker" and even some four strokes don't qualify (The Yamaha YZ-450F, as an example).

The standards are set and the writing is on the wall. I suspect that once any of the major bike manufacturers stops making two strokes that the loss of lobbying power will create a domino effect.

Rod

Exactly....the 2 strokes are a dying breed...due to government regulation. EPA has deemed 2 stroke extinct!

I'll keep my 2 strokes till they pry my cold, dead fingers off it!
(c Rotor 2007)

Rotor