Hd

Mudboy · Oct 15, 2001

I know Harley's been flamed before but this is a new angle. Here's the only prominent US company building bikes and I've wondered why they haven't put out a dirtbike in so long. Well, last night I watched a documentary on the making of the V-Rod that was on Discovery. It was a well done show, but I thought it highlighted the problem with this company.

They took over five years to develop and produce this new bike. FIVE YEARS! Look how fast this business moves. Would you want a brand new motocross bike that was designed in '96? And that's with Porsche doing the engine for them! So basically it was five years to make a chassis! With the money they have, that just astounds me.

The reason for so many delays? The bike was basically built with stying as the number one priority. They had to make so many compromises with engineering to make it "look right" that it was crazy to see what they did. For example, they run the water line out of their case straight up between the cylinders and then to the radiator insead of a line passing the cylinder to the radiator, because it "wouldn't look right" to have something blocking the view of the engine.

I wish they would think a little more reasonably and use their economic resources to make a new dirt bike. I don't think we're going to ever see that happen in the future though.

a454elk · Oct 15, 2001

My 2nd dirtbike was a HD AMF X90. I can't remember a day when it ran right and my dad bought it right off the showroom floor! There were so many problems with it and I remember having to put tape on the throttle cable to keep it together. They were behind the times and still seem to be that way. Oh well, I'll stick to my Zuki for now!

XRpredator · Oct 15, 2001

Originally posted by Mudboy
They took over five years to develop and produce this new bike. FIVE YEARS! Look how fast this business moves. Would you want a brand new motocross bike that was designed in '96?

Your 2002 bike began life in '97. Some mag went to the factories and asked them how long it took from the drawing board to the showroom floor. They said it was about 5 years.

Look at the CRF450R. It was built as an answer to the YZ400F, which really showed up on the scene in '97. Maybe Yamaha was a little faster on the curve with their YZ-F technology, but the factories really don't move all that fast.

Besides, I think Harley-Davidson is doing just fine without building dirt bikes. Have you looked at their stocks lately? Doing very well, thank you very much.

drunkrussian · Oct 15, 2001

Harley is a cult

When you buy a Harley you expect certain things. That was the what they were doing when they created the V-Rod. It had to look good, have the sound, and appeal to the loyal customers. So why rush a brand new idea and bike, w/ a brand new engine (And BTW Porsche only helped w/ the engine)

As for thinking reasonaby, I think they did. They took the time to design and engineer a brand new bike that was unheard of for a Harley. They kept the trademark componets and styling that makes a Harley a Harley. And did you see the tests the bike went through? That was insane. And I think most importantly they have done an amazing job of keeping there extreemly loyal customers.

Rich Rohrich · Oct 15, 2001

Originally posted by Mudboy
I wish they would think a little more reasonably and use their economic resources to make a new dirt bike.

You wish they would think more reasonably? They sell everything thay can make, have a world class balance sheet, and have people lining up to pay over retail to buy their new products. Why on earth would a well run company like that want to get into a low profit high cost, fickle consumer business like dirt bikes? One bad review from the magazine nitwits and good bikes get marked as worthless. Just ask anyone who has tried to sell a new or used KX lately.

You might want to try thinking more reasonably :)

John.T · Oct 15, 2001

RICH!! We FINALLY agree on something!! You are 110% right! Why would Harley even think of rushing something, guys in the US pay the exact same amout in canadian dollars(if not more) for a harley but in American currency
so if a dyna lowrider is 16000 Can than american's will pay 16000 which reallly equals about 24640 Can dollars!!!! And the local dealer here says American's are the one's who keep phoning about this bike, so it's seems to me that harley was thinking when they designed this.

ps, When someone pays 750 bucks for a leather coat, take buisness tips from them:D

another thing about the dirtbikes is we dirtbiker's read mag's that cover ALL bikes, you tell me the next time you see a hardcore Harley guy reading Cycle world!! (they read harley ONLY mag's) So nothing really gets horrible reviews like Rich was mentioning

Mudboy · Oct 15, 2001

Oh I am thinking reasonably. I think it's sad that a company as financially successful as HD has virtually no presence in any two-wheeled racing arena, purposefully under-engineers their bikes, and now caters only to yuppie wanna-bes who haul them behind leather-interiored Yukons in enclosed trailers to Sturgis so they can be "Bikers."

I think it's pretty sad that with their resources they don't have the guts to build an american dirt bike that works and instead we have to rest our hopes on a bicycle company to try to come in and start from scratch. Yes, they make money and their stocks have done well, but they could do a lot more IMHO.

CR Swade · Oct 15, 2001

Why don't you ask C-dale what they think of your ideas regarding H/D expanding their horizons?:p

I'd be willing to bet a new V-rod they would quietly say "What the hell were we thinking?"

Mudboy · Oct 15, 2001

Thank you for supporting my argument. It's no surprise that a bicycle company would encounter the struggles they've had. A motorcycle manufacturer, on the other hand, should be able to pull it off much more easily. I just think it would be cool to have a legit. american competitive dirtbike. If the big 4 and now ktm can all build bikes so closely matched, I bet even frumpy old HD could pull it off.

CR Swade · Oct 15, 2001

Tomatoe, tomotoe...I'd make that same bet that no way H/D could pull off a competitive, light, affordable (in relation to Big Five) within 7 years. They are too far removed from that circle of thechnology.

Rich hit it on the head earlier. Why bring on a huge debt load (ala C-dale), gamble that your design will work and meet with public approval, fund the nescessary race team to sell the product, only to flame out 10 years later, netting a huge loss?

They present the best product for its intended audience period. Why would they jeopordize being able to continue to do that at a profit for the sake of a narrow audience that may or may not buy their bikes. Not good business sense.:silly:

Btw, how much would you spend on a new sheet of paper design from H/D?

OnAnySunday · Oct 15, 2001

I'm sure that IF they wanted to do so, H-D could produce a competitive off road motorcycle.
But as was mentioned earlier, why would they want to?
If your selling every cruiser that your company can build AND have a waiting list for next years models, why build a dirt bike?
Actually building dirtbikes could potentially hurt H-D's street image and possibly hurt sales. Why mess -w- a good thing right?

Anywhoo Mudboy, dont you like the pickings from the big four?
Dont like red, blue green, or yellow?
If you gotta have home grown, buy a Cannondale.

R White · Oct 15, 2001

Re: Harley is a cult

[porsche only helped with the engine]
yea and they started helping in 1982 as you can see there are several DRN members that love harleys, the v-rod in it self is an odessey to the norm.
as was the EVO eng. in 1983.
drunkrussian can you rember 1983!
the V-Rod comes from HD's SB racing and that eng. has been around for at least 10 years. its no way new yet it is new to the gen. pub
PS I HAVE 3.

edit note
ride a harley for at least one year before you knock one!!!!!!
Harley Street Yahama dirt Yahama water

smb_racing · Oct 15, 2001

Originally posted by Mudboy
I think it's sad that a company as financially successful as HD has virtually no presence in any two-wheeled racing arena,

umm, ever watch flat track?
here's a thought, if you don't like harleys, don't buy them, there are plenty of other riders to support them.

drunkrussian · Oct 15, 2001

?

R White,

Did you think I was knocking the Harley, I wasn't. I wanted to support the fact that they spent lots of time and money on a gamble of a bike.

As for the engine being new. I know it was based on their racing bike that had the VR-1000. But they had to take that engine, make it more durable. I called it new because it wasn't the VR-1000, it was based on the VR-1000.

Here's an analogy (not the best), the intell Pentium 3: intell Pentium 4. The technology was always there but it progressed. And when something like that comes out it is new. Oh and I bet the P4 was around long before it was realeased to the public.

R White · Oct 15, 2001

ever watch flat track

;)
YUP:p :cool:

Jeff Gilbert · Oct 15, 2001

HD has thier nitch

Harley is a company that went broke because they mismanaged and built an inferior product. Hold on before you start flaming!

They realized the errors of their ways when they reopened and took the time to define the market and redefine their product. They know what they are doing and they do it very well. Hats off to the Harley group:)

As far as HD making a dirt bike (right off the show room floor, i.e.: MX, trails or woods) it would be like expecting Burger King to start making tires.

dheard4992 · Oct 15, 2001

i dont want a v-rod or a h.d. mx bike

ill stick to my softail on the street and let honda build my 450f for the dirt.why screw with what works? p.s. i also hope ford and gm stick to cars and dont enter mx market also

TM-Frank · Oct 16, 2001

GM Dirt Bike

Originally posted by dheard4992
...p.s. i also hope ford and gm stick to cars and dont enter mx market also

Why not? GM would just buy something in Japan and put Chevrolet stickers on it. In Germany it would be an Opel and if you want to pay 25% more you could get a Cadillac Dirtbike!

Offroadr · Oct 16, 2001

Originally posted by smb_racing

umm, ever watch flat track?

Or drag racing??

Nitro Harleys have been a huge hit at NHRA national events this year. If you don't think people are watching look at the bike Doug Vancil is racing. Full sponsorship from Vance and Hines!

jamsxr · Oct 16, 2001

Want to see Harley Dirtbikes??

Here is three pictures of Harley Dirt bikes I took last month. :cool:

Picture #1

Picture #2

Picture #3

Mudboy · Oct 16, 2001

To answer a few questions and respond to a few comments: First, yes I love the current mx bikes being offered. Put me on any late model 250 and I'll never complain. Second, the comment that it would be like Burger King making tires--no, it would be more like Burger King making pizzas. The reason: HD=motorcycle maker; BK=food maker (duh!). Third--I said "visible" presence in racing. If you live in the boonies like me and get your racing on cable, the answer is "no" I haven't watched flat track racing. Visible to me means motocross, supercross, WSB, GP. As for the hill-climb pic's, yes I need to go up there to MT to see the event. In my college days we would go to the infamous "Widowmaker" in UT (now a subdivision) and I have seen some wicked harley's hill climbing. I'm not really even saying HD SHOULD make a dirt bike, just that it would be cool if they would.

Rich Rohrich · Oct 16, 2001

Originally posted by Mudboy
If you live in the boonies like me and get your racing on cable, the answer is "no" I haven't watched flat track racing. Visible to me means motocross, supercross, WSB, GP.

Speedvision has been running flat track programs this summer. It's worth taking a look. :)

But it's much simpler than we are making it. Dirt bikes are a LOSER from a business standpoint. Given the choice the Japanese would rather take the resources and sell more quads, but they are smart enough to understand the corporate value of dirt bikes and racing. Harley on the other hand understands who their customers are and is clearly wise enough to not jump into the murky waters that make up the fickle MX market. Even if Harley did build a dirt bike do you honestly think anyone under the age of 30 would EVER consider purchasing one? Most vet racers would wait for the bike to be proven, but like the Cannondale it's tough to prove a bike's worth if only a handful of people are buying them. Sounds like a lose lose situation to me.

Looking at it from a purely objective standpoint it looks to me like Harley is spending their money wisely. The Buell Blast engine is being transformed into a competitive dirt track engine and the new Buell sportbike shows the company can be incredibly innovative when they see some potential value. This bike will inject some blood in the high profile Supersport racing series and garner Harley and Buell a massive PR return on their dollar win or lose.

Get a grip, we are a NICHE market and anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't invest millions of dollars on a corporate crap shoot to build us a product that clearly ISN'T NEEDED. That said, I really appreciate the risk that Cannondale has taken and I hope they make zillions of dollars in the years to come.

dirt bike dave · Oct 16, 2001

The real reason Harley no longer makes dirt bikes is KTM has stolen their colors.

jamsxr · Oct 16, 2001

Seriously --

a few years ago Harley was involved in some serious negotiations to "BUY KTM".:eek:

The deal fell through for some reason otherwise HD would have a dirtbike line.

The bike pictured in #1+2 is a five time champion at the old Widowmaker, and if everything goes well, there will be a 2002-UTAH WIDOWMAKER

smb_racing · Oct 16, 2001

I forgot about drag racing, thanks offroadr

I don't even have cable and I still know that harley is a strong presence in flat track racing. When you ask harley to join in to WSB or GP you're comparing apples to oranges. Harley was never meant to be a race bike, though some people do race them. They're a cruiser, some would even call them touring bikes.

Hd

Mudboy

a454elk

Mexicutioner

XRpredator

AssClown SuperPowers

drunkrussian

Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard

John.T

Mudboy

CR Swade

Mudboy

CR Swade

OnAnySunday

Big Pig

R White

smb_racing

Master of None

drunkrussian

R White

Jeff Gilbert

dheard4992

TM-Frank

Offroadr

Ready to bang some trees!

jamsxr

Mudboy

Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard

dirt bike dave

Sponsoring Member

jamsxr

smb_racing

Master of None

Similar Topics

Hd

Mexicutioner

AssClown SuperPowers

Moderator / BioHazard

Big Pig

Master of None

Ready to bang some trees!

Moderator / BioHazard

Sponsoring Member

Master of None

Similar Topics

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency