I hope it just over heated!

ChuckyBoy · Dec 17, 2002

Hey everyone,

I need your opinions and expertise. This past weekend I climbed a high, steep, sandy hill in 1st gear...high rpms, low speed, fairly long duration.

By the time I got to the top, bright white smoke was coming out of the end of the pipe and steam was spewing from the radiator overflow/vent hose.

The guys I was riding with said it was a blown water pump seal and that I was done riding for the day. The bike ran fine on the way back to camp where I replaced about 100 cc of coolant in the radiator. Bike ran fine for the rest of the day...about three hours.

Do you think that it just over heated a bit or do you think I actually blew a seal? I would think that if a seal was blown the bike would not have run fine afterwards. Any chance that it just over heated?

The part that is wierd is the white smoke...kinda like water in the cylinder. But it only happend once...the last part of the hill climb.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't worry about or if it is something I need to look into further. I would hate to do serious damge to the engine. Bike seems to be fine now.

I hate to be too wordy but I tried to be as clear as possible. I would appreciate your thoughts on the incident.

Thanks,
Chuck

cweingartz · Dec 17, 2002

It is good to be clear.
If you want to know if it was a waterpump seal, then look at your oil in the transmission. If the waterpump seal leaks then there will be coolant in the oil, also there may be oil drops in the coolant. Otherwise it could be the head gasket that leaked causing the white smoke, but it seems that if you blew a head gasket then it would make white smoke the whole time. All that I can reccomend is to check the coolant for oil and check the oil for coolant. Good luck.

evenslower · Dec 18, 2002

If it was coming out of the exhaust then it wasn't a water pump seal. More like a head gasket. Check everything out anyway.

ChuckyBoy · Dec 18, 2002

Alright...Coolant in the tranny looks milky right? Well, by looking through the sight glass the tranny oil looks clean...not milky. So no coolant in the oil.

What does oil in the coolant look like? Would it settle to the bottom of the radiator?

I, too, am of the thinking that if it was the head gasket then the white smoke would be persistent. I'm puzzled about this thing.

Stupid question. How would I go about doing a visual inspection of the head gasket?

Thanks a bunch,
Chuck

jboomer · Dec 18, 2002

You would have to remove the gas tank and drain the coolant. Then, naturally, remove the head. If the head gasket has bit the bullet (depending on what type) it'll be broken -- so as to allow coolant into the cylinder. Maybe it has broken and under extreme heat (therefore extreme expansion of the head) it would begin to allow coolant to seep into the head. Under normal operating temps it may not expand enough to allow this bypass. Just a silly little theory.

cweingartz · Dec 18, 2002

The oil will appear as little black drops througout the coolant if you just ran it. If it settles the oil would be on top of the anti-freeze.

ChuckyBoy · Dec 18, 2002

Thanks for the input so far. I checked the coolant...looks good...no oil on top.

Actually, I like the "silly little theory"...sounds reasonable enough. Looks like I am going to have to the pull the head off.

Prior to this, the most involved work I've ever done on a bike has been to change the front and rear pads and bleed the lines. Looks like the learning curve is steepening. Wish me luck. Any pearls of wisdom? Anything in particular that I should NOT do while pulling the head off?

Thanks again,
Chuck

jboomer · Dec 18, 2002

I can't really think of anything. It's a really simple job. Be sure to drain the coolant down low (there's a coolant drain bolt usually attached to the water pump cover). I didnt do this once and as soon as I popped that head off, fluid went everywhere. No big deal, just messy. Be sure that when you go to replace the head, that you tighten the bolts down as shown in your manual. Failure to do this may result in a warped head (both motorcycle and your own, when you have to replace it!).

D36-108A · Dec 19, 2002

Yeah, don't pull the head off if you don't have a replacement gasket.

canyncarvr · Dec 19, 2002

Wow. That would be cool to have things heat up to the point the head gasket leaked, but then 'heal' themselves well enough that there was no residual damage or effect.

EG says he reuses head gaskets (like, once I think)...but if you do that you have to SPRAY on some gasket product. He said he didn't like the liquid type. FelPro makes a tacky spray...I know there are others.

BUT...I might do that on a known good gasket. Sounds like yours has already given it up once. I'd want to give it the best shot I could and use a new gasket.

You happen to run a #7 heat range plug? (again..considering this to be an 'H' model). That would be good for another 100º or so. I stopped using a 7 'cuz of overheating tbls in severe load cases.

Clean both surfaces real good. Don't scrape with anything metal (well, you can, but if you do you can also real easily scratch the aluminum). Scotchbrite green works well. Don't lean a whole lot on it either, cuz it's pretty harsh stuff. After you're all done with the cleaning part, a good wipe down with something like lacquer thinner before you put your gasket on and you should be all set.

Maybe run a straight edge across the mating surfaces to look for gaps.

Spray a little extra goop in the gaps.

.....just kidding!! ;)

KelvinKDX · Dec 19, 2002

Are you sure that you were not just buring off oil that was in your expansion pipe? Do you typically run the bike hard or do you normally run it pretty easy and this hill climb was atypical?

ChuckyBoy · Dec 20, 2002

KelvinKDX - my friendly neighborhood know-it-all thinks its the same thing as you. He knows that I am terrible slow and rarely get on the pipe. His theory was pratically identical as yours and for the same reasons. Maybe y'all are onto something? And yes, the sandy hill was extremely atypical.

After listening to what people have said and thinking about it for a while, this is what I have come up with. If it was steam coming out of the pipe then I would think that it's a head gasket. If it was smoke coming out of the pipe, I think Kelvins idea make perfect sense. The question is...was it steam or was it smoke?

I think that it would be pretty easy to tell the difference by the way it dissipates. Apparently, its not that easy. None of the guys I was riding with would commit one way or the other.

This is what I am going to do. Since pulling the head off, although it sounds fun, is not something I feel I'm prepared to do, I am going to continue to ride it as is, keeping an eye on the coolant and the gear oil. If things seem to be OK I'm not going to mess with it. If the problem persists I'll pull of the head off and replace the gasket.

CC - running an 8 plug BTW.

Thanks to everyone for helping out,
Chuck

TWRT · Dec 20, 2002

If it was smoke from carbon burning in your pipe, you may want to clean out your pipe. I have read here that using a propane torch, you can burn out the carbon build up in the pipe. I took the pipe off my 93 Yamaha, built a fire and put the pipe in it. I checked on it from time to time, watched it smoke for about 3-4 hours. let it cool and tapped on it, till no carbon came out. The bike ran like new afterward! repacking your silencer and cleaning the center tube is a good idea too.

Glitch · Dec 20, 2002

I would advice you atleast replace the head gasket, you should do a new topend while your at it. If you had to replace 100cc of coolant, you basically burnt off most of it, which is bad. My head gasket was also bad, white smoke was mixed in with the usual smoke coming out exhaust, along with coolant coming out the overflow hose whenever the bike was warmed up and I revved it, it would just come out for a few seconds after rev.
My guess is that you suddenly leaked all your coolant on the uphill because the engine was under such strain. The piston needed more force to go from TDC to exhaust port because everything was under strain from the steep hill. The extra force increased the pressure in the volume of area from TDC to first exhaust port in cylinder, escaping past a worn out head gasket. The reason this doesnt happen on regular riding is because the force exherted on the crank and piston is not as much as on a steep uphill. This is totally a guess because I dont know if any of it is true, I think that it seems logical and true, but dont know for sure. But what I do know is that you should atleast reaplace you head gasket.

Michelle · Dec 20, 2002

I am a slow rider. Whenever I come to an uphill, I always look back to see how much I've cleaned the pipe out ;) However, I find the KDX does not use coolant (except the overflow bottle which just vanishes - fill 'er up, it's half full not long after, but if it's empty to start with, no loss in the radiators - easier to run it empty until someone starts stressing).
I also get my husband to sometimes take it for a blast just to clean it out.

jdbrusch · Dec 21, 2002

You can have the cooling system pressure tested at a local radiator shop or even a local bike shop.The shop will pressurize the system to the normal operating pressure and see if the pressure slowly drops over a few minutes.Remove the spark plug and listen to the hole to hear if you can hear if it is leaking.You may want to pressurize it a few psi above the normal rating and this "may" reproduce the problem you experienced. Have the rad cap tested also the rad cap should release the pressure at a certain rating.The bike could have experience such a drastic increase in pressure from the hillclimb that it had no other choice that to spew its coolent from the weekest point,which maybe a week and tired head-gasket.If this is the case you have no choice but to replace the gasket and also check to see if the head is slightly warped.
Also notice that you mentioned that the bike was spewing coolant from the overflow,does the over flow tube happen to exit around the pipe area and maybe pumped the coolant onto the hot pipe causing the white smoke?

ChuckyBoy · Dec 29, 2002

I've been off the board for a while with the holidays and all.

I wanted to thank everyone for their insight and opinion on my "problem". So far there seems to be no ill effect. I have ran the bike for several hours with no more smoke and/or steam. The coolant level has remained constant.

I supposes it was just "one of those things" that happen. I dunno?

Anyway, thanks again for responding and offering your expertise.

Happy New Year y'all!
Chuck

I hope it just over heated!

ChuckyBoy

cweingartz

evenslower

ChuckyBoy

jboomer

cweingartz

ChuckyBoy

jboomer

D36-108A

canyncarvr

KelvinKDX

ChuckyBoy

TWRT

Glitch

Michelle

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jdbrusch

ChuckyBoy

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I hope it just over heated!

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