KIPS valve keep stripping

[BucKat]

Ok...I really tired of replacing these puppies every 2 month or having to tear the head off to clean them after every ride...
What's the best way to keep them clean or prevent them from sticking and then stripping.

I run 50:1 with my jetting ALMOST spot on... ;)
Thanks
Joe

 

[canyncarvr]

Aren't the older KIPS systems a bit on the unreliable side? Even so, this sounds on the extreme side of things.

Is this something that 'just started' happening ...but after something else was done? ...like, 'Never did this before the topend was done,'?

Doesn't mr. fredette sell some KIPS parts made from different metals?

(Maybe I just imagined that out of thin air?? Maybe that was just a proferred idea awhile ago?)

 

[BB007]

Hey BucKat Guess what? I have a 99 KDX 200 and the KIPS valve was a bit stiff. I could close the valve ok but to open it was another story. It was really stiff and hard to move. I tried some Yamaha ring free which you can get at the local Yamah dealer. It says 2 oz per gallon for a shock treatment and 1 oz to maintain clean combustion and exhaust. I gave my bike the shock treatment for a full tank of fuel. I then checked the valve movement and the stuff really worked much to my surprise. I know this is no substitute for a tear down and to clean things the right way but hey give it a try. It worked for me. For 6$-7$ a bottle its worth a try. The valve moves with little effort now! This coming winter I will do a top end job and clean the KIPS the right way but if this works between ring jobs more power to the KDX guys!

 

[BucKat]

I picked the bike up towards the end of the riding season last year...Being new to the Green I decided to tear it apart and take alook.
I found the clutch lever side valve stripped. Cleaned and reassembled with new valves both sides.
Early this year the bike ran great. Just needed jetting. Great bottom end but flat on top ( I'm still working on that)
Hurt my knee so decided to take it apart again.
Here's what I found.

Left side - stripped gears again.
Right side - broken in 2 spots. One on either side of the drum. ( valve)


Need to fix valves in order to jet proper. This would explain my flat top end..The valves were staying closed all the time.
Fishhead was right on the money.

What I need to know is...how to prevent this and/or how often do I need to do a tear down..I've read once a season is adaquate. ???

 

[BucKat]

Perhaps Yamaha ring free is the temp answer....Who knows.?? ;)

Joe

 

[jdbrusch]

BucKat,I was wondering what the valves look like when you pull the head off,are they fairly clean or do they have alot of carbon build up on them .The only reason the valve usually strip or break is from lack of maintainance.You seem to know what you are doing so this seems ok.I am wondering if maybe the valve bore is badly worn out and the valves are hanging up ,the manual does not give a wear limit on these and I am wondering if they can wear out to much,anyone?The bore the operating rod slides in may also be worn and possibly skipping over the top of the valve teeth but I have never seen one worn out this bad.Do you use a decent brand of oil,I have found that some oils produce larger amounts of build up than others,but even with bad oil you should not break the valves that easy.I only take mine apart once a year for cleaning and have only had to replace the left valve once in 8 years. :confused:

 

[jdbrusch]

BucKat, just noticed you had another post with regards to a crack in the cylinder above the ex. port,this maybe causing the area above the port to overheat and actually sieze or lock up the valves in the bores causing the problem you are having,only solution maybe to have the cylinder welded(if possible) and replated.Sorry might be big $ check a shop in your area and see if there is anyone that can repair and plate the cyl.being our Canuck buck is worth so little I do not think it worthwhile to ship to the States?You may have to get a new cyl. or look for a good used one(if they exist)but I think the stripping valves are a result of the crack,IMHO.There is a shop here in BC that I believe can do the repair if you cannot find someone in your area(but I think there should be someone back east) and I can get you in touch with them if you want I'm not sure how much $.

 

[kciH]

There is a rundown on the different powervalve systems on Eric Gorr's website. I believe it mentions something about problems with the year you are dealing with. Take a look at it and it may help you out.

 

[BucKat]

kciH,,, I have read Eric's article on the KIPS valves..It does mention what CAN go wrong but not how to rectify it..Thank-you for the insight. :)

jdbrusch,,,the valves do not look suspect when the head alone is taken off. Quite often I do take the governor cover and boot off to manually operate the valves.( removing the nut from the KIPS actuator arm allows free operation of the valves.). They SEEMED ok but,,,,ahhhh not so..
Even when taken out there is nearly no hard carbon deposite but there is an amount of gooo...


The bores in which the valves rotate are relatively tight and are not out of round. I will check the bottom of the bore where the pin( if you will) on the valve seats. Perhaps this is out of round as the right valve pin was siezed in it's hole. The valve broke off just above this. I will also chech the valve collars for wear. Heck I'll buy new ones ...May as well.

As far as oil I was running Belray H1R ( the power valve formula) last year at 32:1.
This year I have swithed to Amsoil series 2000 synthetic at 50:1.
I am open to all/any suggestions of course.

I am entertained with the overheating theory due to the crack in the plating..It is just the plating that is cracked...No damage,that I can tell, in the actual cylinder wall.
This makes very good sense. I'll look into this more...alot more. I would expect some damage to the center exhaust valve if this was the case though.It is in perfect form.

I did notice that there is some wear in the governor rod on the far left threads. This would explain the stripped valve on that side. Too much play in the meshing surfaces leading to excessive wear.
...and that there are two parts available :
49046 49046-1065 ROD-GOVERNOR 1 ( - DX200EE011340)
49046B 49046-1069 ROD-GOVERNOR 1 ( DX200EE011341 - )

I need look into this aswell.

 

[BucKat]

Update..

I have check the top end again and found some interesting finds.

Vavles,collars,bores and guides( hole in bottom of bore to accept valve )are all ok. But what I did find was interesting. :(

1st.... the crack is all the way through the cylinder. Well,,,,from inside the cylinder wall through to the side where the center exhaust valve sits. That area is about 1/4 thick or so..

2nd.... the head gasket....
the long holes/slots in the gasket,the ones that allow the coolant to flow through, are not the same size as the holes/slots in the cylinder and/or head. The holes in the cylinder/head are about 1"x1/4" . The two back slots match fine..They are about 1"x1/4". The two FORWARD holes in the gasket are only about 1/4" in dia..They are holes.Not long slots. This will not allow sufficient flow/cooling in the front of the cylinder and could cause overheating. Thus causing the valves to become siezed as jdbrusch stated.


My questions:

1st.... can this be fixed using epoxy/jbweld or something similar. Erric G. uses epoxy to change the timing of transfer ports so can it be used in this case or does this need to be fix professionally, via welding and replating. I'm thinking more so to seal the area as compared to increasing strenght..Any thoughts??

2nd.... will this cause jetting nightmares as the exhaust port is essentially alway open to the combustion chamber. Even though... it is only a small amount.

Thanks
Joe

 

[jdbrusch]

Joe, the holes you are describing in the front of the cyl. in the gasket are for the top of the kips valves or the cyl. studs there is no coolant running in these holes,coolant only flows in the center u-shaped hole.So unfortunatly everthing seems ok here,The center kips valve is made of steel and the 2 outer ones are aluminum I have never seen the center valve strip or break.Are you going to try to fix the crack with JBweld?I do not believe this is going to work.It maybe possible to have the cyl. welded from the backside of the crack opposite the plating,but I do not think there is enough room to get in there and weld it properly.

 

[BucKat]

The holes/slots, I speak of, in the head gasket, ARE for coolant to flow through. Trust me.

There are 4 U-shaped holes/slots in the cylinder that match up with the head.
There SHOULD also be '4' U-shaped holes/slots in the gasket to match.
2 on the left side,,,,,, and 2 on the right side.
Or,,,,you could say there are (2) 'towards the front',,,, and (2) 'towards' the back.
Also 1 large E-shaped hole at the very fornt of the cylinder.This is fine.

My gasket only has 2 U-shaped slots.The other 2 are only 1/4" holes.
The 2 'towards the back' ARE U-shaped holes/slots . They are fine
The 2 'towards the front' are only 1/4" dia holes..NOT U-shaped slots. This "IS" where coolant flows. But for some reason mine are restricked to 1/4" holes instead of being U-shaped slots.

I know the difference between stud/KIPS holes and coolant holes. Belive me when I say they ARE for coolant.Sorry for sounding so abrupt but this rare time I do know what I'm talking about.

There should be enough room to weld the crack.It can be accessed by going through the exhaust head once the center exhaust valve is removed.

Thanks
Joe

 

[Brian]

Just wanted to chime in with a question...

Just got a used KDX 200, and this thread has gotten me worried. My bike seems flat on top, but I thought that was just because it's not a high revving MX'er? Any chance my KIPS might be bad? Any way to find out other than dissassembling it? Thanks

 

[jdbrusch]

Sorry Joe I thought you were talking about the holes in the front of the gasket,the 1/4" hole as far as I can tell that you are describing are on the sides of the cyl.this is normal,forgive me if I am looking at the wrong ones still,The old grey matter(brain) is not what it use to be.Most likely they are this size to restrict coolant in this area and to direct it to the hotter area of the motor ,ie. the exhaust side,just a thought.
Sorry Stan I am not very familiar with the 95 and up motor,but if can take the pipe off and remove the linkage from the govenor(kips) shaft and activate the rod manually you should see the valves move. I understand the kips rod on the kdx models that runs up from the crankcase is weak so make sure you support it with a wrench,it will break when you try to remove the nut,check the manual or past posts on this.

 

[BucKat]

Ok,,,,I went to www.buykawasaki.com and looked at the gaskets for the '90 and the '95...
Well,,,,guess what...the turkey who owned the bike previously put in a gasket from a '95..
Take a look and you'll see the difference between the two gaskets.
I'm not exactly sure what effect this will have on the cylinder but I'm guessing it caused uneven temps across the cylinder and lead to the crack and the sticking valves....?? :think: Not sure though...
Any thoughts here???? :think: :think: :think:
Now All I need do is fix this blundering fools mess.

Stan, as jdbrusch said...remove the exhaust pipe and the governor cover on the right side of the cylinder. Next remove the nut on the top of the governor shaft. It is a LEFT handed thread. Also support the shaft as not to break it.
This will allow removal of the governor level. You will now be able to manually operate the valves by pulling the governor rod out. Looking through the exhaust port you will hopefully see the 3 valves move together.. If still not sure remove the head and repeat the above. hope this helps..
Go the www.buykawasaki.com to get a pictorial of the parts or use a shop manual.
goodluck
Joe

 

[kciH]

From what I read in the EGorr deal, it seams as though these bikes are to be avoided, as there is not a fix for the problems. I've bought things before and replaced parts often just to ride them. I'd fix it for the last time and get something that won't break. I'm not trying to start a flame here, I actually LIKE wrenching (kinda).! :) It keeps me busy between rides. In Nebraska there are 30 times more bike shops than there are legal places to ride, and there aren't that many bike shops.

 

[BucKat]

Hmmm,,,,well.....somthing to consider I guess.
Don't get me wrong.It has crossed my mind.
Hey,,want-a buy a bike...

First we fix.....then we sell.Maybe!

Joe

 

[Canadian Dave]

Depending on the size of the crack the idea of an overheated center valve binding in its bore is a good one.

You should also check into: There is a shaft at the bottom of the KIPS valves that fits into a bore in the cylinder. Over time the bore in the cylinder can wear allowing the valve to bind at it rotates, breaking the shaft. There are a couple fixes for this. One is to enlarge the hole, install a brass bushing and resize the hole. The other is to take a center punch and make four indentations in a square pattern around the hole. This will deform the aluminum in the area and reduce the size of the hole. Test fit the valve to insure it still rotates freely in the hole. If it's a bit snug you can use a drill with an appropriate sized bit to enlarge it to the proper size.

You might check with Eric Gorr on a reconditioned cylinder. I recently sent him a 89 to 94 cylinder for rebuilding and resale. He may still have it or it may be in process. For the price you’d pay for a new cylinder you could likely recondition yours and have your cylinder and head modified while you're at it.

You might give Fredette Racing Products a call as well. He carries used KDX parts and you might luck out.

Hope that helps,

David

 

[BucKat]

Thanks CD.
I've been taking a close look at the collars and the holes in the bottom of bores. They do seem to have excessive play.
Ordered new valves and collars.
Once the new valves come in, I will install them and check for play.

Whooohoooo
My needle jet(cel) from Sudo came in...Too bad the rest are back ordered..

Ohh ya...Must fix engine first. :(

 

[jdbrusch]

Joe with the crack at the front of the cyl. are you not loosing any coolant into the cyl., from what I understand the large coolant passage is right above and around the kips valves,yes -no?or is the bike constantly boiling over similar to a blown head gasket.
With a worn out bore you can also run a tap(for threading holes-bottoming tap in this case)into the bore this raises the material inside the object and may result in a better fit, you may still have to finish the bore with a drill or reamer for proper clearance. But I think C.D. method may be easier being the bore is so far down in the cyl.

 

[BucKat]

No coolant losses or boiling over. The crack does not go that far up the cylinder. The crack is just behind the spot where the center exhaust valve sits. The cylinder wall is thinner here to accomodate the valve. Removing the center valve and pipe gives a good view of this spot.

CD I'm pretty confindent that the center valve has never seized. There is no appartent damage to it. The left valve stripps and the right valve became seized and caused it to break in two places.
3 possibilities for these conditions.
1 the holes in the collars and bottom of the bores are too big.
2 head gasket causes over heating near the valve resulting in seizure
3 I noticed that the governor rod can rotate slightly. This causes the threads on the rod and the left valve to bind..The action of the KIPS system is pretty strong and the governor rod will absolutely want to slam the valves open.Something has to give and in this case it would be the weaker aluminum thread on the valve.

The quest continues. Parts should be in tomorrow and if all goes well I'll be testing her this weekend.