IRISHCOFFEE
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- Aug 3, 2002
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ray johnson, where is south la? ca. or louisiana?
KTM 400/520 Safety Notice: Valvetrain
- Thread starter EricGorr
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Eric Gorr
I am suprised that you have not replied to any of the replies to your post. Your post seems like you have explained the problem, but you did specify wether the problem is the SX's EXC's MXC's or the LC4. You didnt even specify the year. I take it that it is 02 or older because you say 400/520, which in 03 were changed to 450/525. Sounds like some of the other guys are confused about this too. I have been checking back to this thread now for some time expecting a reply and clarification. You state that if we have a couple of seasons or so on the bike that you suggest we take it to our dealer and have them modify the head for these new springs, I thought that I would have this checked out and fixed BEFORE anything happens so I called my dealer (in northern Illinois) and had them read your post to see what they thought. They did some checking and said they found nothing about changing my head for a new type of conical spring and would not suggest doing it.
I know that it is possible for this to happen, but am getting the feeling it is not very common, and might only be happining to certain engines (modified, or bikes used where high rpms are common such as motocross, or dual sport riding). Any more specific information would be greatly appreciated.
I am suprised that you have not replied to any of the replies to your post. Your post seems like you have explained the problem, but you did specify wether the problem is the SX's EXC's MXC's or the LC4. You didnt even specify the year. I take it that it is 02 or older because you say 400/520, which in 03 were changed to 450/525. Sounds like some of the other guys are confused about this too. I have been checking back to this thread now for some time expecting a reply and clarification. You state that if we have a couple of seasons or so on the bike that you suggest we take it to our dealer and have them modify the head for these new springs, I thought that I would have this checked out and fixed BEFORE anything happens so I called my dealer (in northern Illinois) and had them read your post to see what they thought. They did some checking and said they found nothing about changing my head for a new type of conical spring and would not suggest doing it.
I know that it is possible for this to happen, but am getting the feeling it is not very common, and might only be happining to certain engines (modified, or bikes used where high rpms are common such as motocross, or dual sport riding). Any more specific information would be greatly appreciated.
geremacheks
~SPONSOR~
- Feb 14, 2002
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Eric, help us please. I read up to here, and I'm still confused. What particular models and years?
This is the busiest time of year for Eric and MOST tuners. This time of year he gets to the questions he can on DRN, but he misses a few. I got a hold of Eric and he said he would log on in the morning and udpate the info in the thread. Fair enough?
EricGorr
Super Power AssClown
- Aug 24, 2000
- 708
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- Thread starter
- #32
Just a quick update, I've switched to Kibblewhite spring sets because they fit on the old style heads and have less preload pressure than the new KTM conical springs.
If you're interested in a lightweight valve train, KTM just lowered the price of their titanium valves and spring sets.
Sorry I don't have time to participate in this thread, I've got a lot of work in the shop right now. Don't expect anymore responses from me on this topic.
If you're interested in a lightweight valve train, KTM just lowered the price of their titanium valves and spring sets.
Sorry I don't have time to participate in this thread, I've got a lot of work in the shop right now. Don't expect anymore responses from me on this topic.
Eric,
You have started some SERIOUS issues with this thread that many of us are still confused about, not to mention that you are accusing KTM of profiting from a design flaw that you fail to fully explain. If you feel that you must inform KTM owners of this potential problem then why do you feel that you can just "walk away" from it after all of us have replied with questions, and still have this topic remain at the top of the forum? It seems that you have yelled FIRE in a crowded theater and are now watching everyone run. If this "potential safety hazard will cause me injury then I would like to know more information backed up with specific facts and pictures so that all of us KTM owners can beware.
geremacheks
~SPONSOR~
- Feb 14, 2002
- 484
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Quote: "Is Eric using the wrong parts?"
This seems to me the most logical explanation so far. Surly we have some knowlegeable people here that could try to help explain this puzzle of a thread since Eric is not going to do it. What other alternative do we have?
This seems to me the most logical explanation so far. Surly we have some knowlegeable people here that could try to help explain this puzzle of a thread since Eric is not going to do it. What other alternative do we have?
mike perry
Sponsoring Member
- May 20, 2002
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I have had reports of keepers pulling through OEM retainers, and retainers cracking on the 420/500 models. The story I get is thaqt KTM switched materials from steel retainers which were cracking, to aluminum which were pulling through.
I had 4 different customers at the Industry show in Indy ask me about making retainers last year because they had had some problems. I also had a customer in Australia who ran a batch of his own retainers because he couldn't wait for ours.
I hadn't heard any more about the problem until Eric brought it up.
I don't have access to KTM micro fische, so right now I don't know all the years or models that used the same springs and retainers, or when they changed materials or springs.
Generally speaking part numbers alone are insufficient for making statements about when a problem occured or didn't occur, and whether or not your new part will fit all the year/models that are affected. You need to have all the cylinder heads from the different years, so you can check the fit of your components, and make sure that the components are compatible.
As you can imagine this can be an incredibly lengthy, tedious, and frustrating process.
Perhaps instead of impuning Eric's character, folks could do a little research based on the information that he took the time to pass along. Then notes can be compared and some conclusions drawn. It's nice to be able to circumvent the research process and rely on one person to find out everything they can and then spoon feed it to us, but you can't really go after someone after because they give you a heads-up, but can't dedicate their life to finding out the rest of the info. Everyone has to do a little leg work. You'll be suprised how good it feels to participate in the process.
Mike
I had 4 different customers at the Industry show in Indy ask me about making retainers last year because they had had some problems. I also had a customer in Australia who ran a batch of his own retainers because he couldn't wait for ours.
I hadn't heard any more about the problem until Eric brought it up.
I don't have access to KTM micro fische, so right now I don't know all the years or models that used the same springs and retainers, or when they changed materials or springs.
Generally speaking part numbers alone are insufficient for making statements about when a problem occured or didn't occur, and whether or not your new part will fit all the year/models that are affected. You need to have all the cylinder heads from the different years, so you can check the fit of your components, and make sure that the components are compatible.
As you can imagine this can be an incredibly lengthy, tedious, and frustrating process.
Perhaps instead of impuning Eric's character, folks could do a little research based on the information that he took the time to pass along. Then notes can be compared and some conclusions drawn. It's nice to be able to circumvent the research process and rely on one person to find out everything they can and then spoon feed it to us, but you can't really go after someone after because they give you a heads-up, but can't dedicate their life to finding out the rest of the info. Everyone has to do a little leg work. You'll be suprised how good it feels to participate in the process.
Mike
I did do a little research when this was first brought to our attention.
Back in 2000 the RFS spring caps were made of alluminium and were prone to break or pull through the spring itself. The part number for these alluminium caps are #590.36.032.000, since 2001 these parts on only available when you buy the complete spring set and the part number is # 590.36.028.144 and are now made of steel.
I read most of the KTM boards and I have never heard of any KTM valve spring failure or breakage in the RFS engine.
My research, to this point is that Eric is trying to install valve springs in the wrong cylinderhead and will not fit without some machining.
When a person claims that a manufacturer is profiting by putting peoples lives at stake, then this person NEEDS to back that up with indisputable facts. It is not "our" responsibility to do this for him.
If I started a thread that said your RFS will run better with ATF in the engine oil. I better back that up with facts or else I will get flamed from every direction.
Eric Gore brought on some serious issues that should not be taken with a grain of salt.
- May 14, 2000
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I think for the most part, the people following this thread have shown a great deal of patience and respect, given the seriousness of the subject, the length of time that has gone by since a follow-up, and by whom it was being posted.
Between myself and my racing/riding partners, we have no less than eight RFS's ranging from 00' to 03's, and not one has experienced any type of valvetrain related problems. I might ad that two of these are 00' 520's that have been raced or ridden hard since they where new, without so much as a valve cover removed. (I can hear my valvesprings popping as I write this) Guess some would call that luck, I like to think of it as a result of a dilligent maintance schedule!
With all due respect Mr. Gorr, I for one, expected a bit more of an explaination.
Between myself and my racing/riding partners, we have no less than eight RFS's ranging from 00' to 03's, and not one has experienced any type of valvetrain related problems. I might ad that two of these are 00' 520's that have been raced or ridden hard since they where new, without so much as a valve cover removed. (I can hear my valvesprings popping as I write this) Guess some would call that luck, I like to think of it as a result of a dilligent maintance schedule!
With all due respect Mr. Gorr, I for one, expected a bit more of an explaination.
marcusgunby
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 9, 2000
- 6,450
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With due respect, 8 or 28 bikes without a defect isnt a case for saying the faults are due to owners bad servicing.I service dialysis machines and you need to see alot of machines before you call see trends-this is something the average rider will not be able to do.Eric has brought the problem to the attension of the 'KTM guys' hes stated all owners of bikes would be wise to inspect the heads if they have a reasonable amount of time on them-now its possible the cure he uses maybe due to confused part nos -seems to me this is a common theme when i was a KTM owner.
Next i will really upset you die hard KTM guys-i had my 99 PDS shock come apart at the clevis(like many,many others)KTM were not interested in the safety side of this potentially deadly fault and they were not interested in warranting the defective parts(i even printed off a list of threads off the internet to prove it wasnt isolated)no joy-my dealer went to the head of KTM UK and the answer was no warranty and no acknowlegment of the fault.Sorry if i sound bitter but i put me at risk and cost me alot of money.
Next i will really upset you die hard KTM guys-i had my 99 PDS shock come apart at the clevis(like many,many others)KTM were not interested in the safety side of this potentially deadly fault and they were not interested in warranting the defective parts(i even printed off a list of threads off the internet to prove it wasnt isolated)no joy-my dealer went to the head of KTM UK and the answer was no warranty and no acknowlegment of the fault.Sorry if i sound bitter but i put me at risk and cost me alot of money.
Last edited:
- May 14, 2000
- 1,082
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I agree with you Marcus, in a statistic sorta way. Although, the original post was clipped as important, and relayed a feeling of urgency, leading readers to believe that if we dont get the proper replacement parts installed, we too will experience problems.
EricGorr
Super Power AssClown
- Aug 24, 2000
- 708
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- Thread starter
- #42
Marcus brings up a good point related to maintenance. I see a distrurbing trend in the motorcycle industry, manufacturers are terrified of suggesting to owners to update they're bikes with improved parts because unscrupulous lawyers in the American Trial Laywers Association will glom onto anything they see a profit in initiating class action lawsuits about, and newbies of 4-strokes have been lied to by the motorcycle magazines as "NO MAINTENANCE DIRT BIKES".
THAT TOTALLY CRACKS ME UP!
Stop being a bunch of babies and put a little love and tendernous into your bikes. WORK ON THEM! Heres the sad truth, there is no maintenance free dirt bikes. Magazine editors lie to you because manufacturers pay them via advertising. They don't care about you, they care about ad revenues.
Everyday I talk to guys on the phone who have ridden the crap out of their 4-stroke bikes for years and then they whine about the $2,000 estimates that I give them when I disassemble their engine that hasn't had a oil change or valve adjustement in 2 years. Two weeks ago I conducted a seminar at a shop in Indiana. There was a guy there who owned a YZF. I've seen him there for 3 years running. Every year I do a segment on 4-stroke valve adjustments and top end rebuilds. For the last 3 years he bellyaches about the costs and hassles of maintenance, saying "thats too complicated and I can't afford it". The funny part is that this year when he professed his procrastination he was holding a parts bag with a set of flashy graphics and a carbon fiber tail pipe, about $500 worth of junk. Valve shims cost $5 each
For all of you dumbasses who want to hassle me about this post, I wish you the worst of luck.
Sincerely, Eric
THAT TOTALLY CRACKS ME UP!
Stop being a bunch of babies and put a little love and tendernous into your bikes. WORK ON THEM! Heres the sad truth, there is no maintenance free dirt bikes. Magazine editors lie to you because manufacturers pay them via advertising. They don't care about you, they care about ad revenues.
Everyday I talk to guys on the phone who have ridden the crap out of their 4-stroke bikes for years and then they whine about the $2,000 estimates that I give them when I disassemble their engine that hasn't had a oil change or valve adjustement in 2 years. Two weeks ago I conducted a seminar at a shop in Indiana. There was a guy there who owned a YZF. I've seen him there for 3 years running. Every year I do a segment on 4-stroke valve adjustments and top end rebuilds. For the last 3 years he bellyaches about the costs and hassles of maintenance, saying "thats too complicated and I can't afford it". The funny part is that this year when he professed his procrastination he was holding a parts bag with a set of flashy graphics and a carbon fiber tail pipe, about $500 worth of junk. Valve shims cost $5 each
For all of you dumbasses who want to hassle me about this post, I wish you the worst of luck.
Sincerely, Eric
geremacheks
~SPONSOR~
- Feb 14, 2002
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Quote...."Magazine editors lie to you because manufacturers pay them via advertising. They don't care about you, they care about ad revenues."
For over 20 years I've been involved in the business of magazines. Simple truth you should know: Without readers (circulation) mags wouldn't exist. Mags need contributors, subscribers, and then ad revenue. Editors lying to readers wouldn't work very long. How dumb do you think readers are? They wouldn't put up with it, and the mag would fail. Business is not done this way.
Quote: "dumbasses" Is this really Eric Gorr writing this or an impostor? If it is Eric Gorr, why doesn't he answer the questions and put an end to this post? Serious issuses and confusion remain. Thanks.
For over 20 years I've been involved in the business of magazines. Simple truth you should know: Without readers (circulation) mags wouldn't exist. Mags need contributors, subscribers, and then ad revenue. Editors lying to readers wouldn't work very long. How dumb do you think readers are? They wouldn't put up with it, and the mag would fail. Business is not done this way.
Quote: "dumbasses" Is this really Eric Gorr writing this or an impostor? If it is Eric Gorr, why doesn't he answer the questions and put an end to this post? Serious issuses and confusion remain. Thanks.
marcusgunby
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 9, 2000
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I know loads of lies printing in mx mags-in fact they print more lies than truths.If you dont know they are lieing then it wont affect the sales.Sorry but mags or newpapers dont lie wont wash with me.
Man you gave no specific information on the several bikes you had inspected, (year of model,EXC,SX). You said we should contact our dealers (I talked to 3 different, respected shops) noone has any idea about this even after they read this post. I think we just wanted some specifics regarding the years and models of the bikes you stated you had found this on. I didnt think that was too much to ask. I guess I was wrong. But all you did was try to put the blame on mags and us "dumbass babies" who are too freakin lazy to do maintenence. Did you not think there was going to be questions to a post as serious as this. I did what you suggested and contacted shops to have this taken care of and nobody knew what you were talking about that is why I replied with questions. I do work on my bikes and I am very capable of doing complicated machining and inspection of a fourstroke engine. What makes you think you know anything about anyone who replied to your post??? Check yourself before you start calling me a dumbass.
When I first read this post I wanted to say BullZhit!! Eric has been on a campaign against basically all magazines and anyone else that claims to KNOW anything about motorcycles for 20 years. The whole "the sky is falling" opinion I felt was a little hard to accept. Having said that, I do believe he DOES have our best interest at heart. I have been turning bolts for 35 years, I'm 45, so the difference in longevity between a 3600 RPM briggs and a 13,500rpm YZF are for me easy to understand. The same can not be said for less technically minded people. When I started racing hare-scrambles getting a bike to last for 3 hours was a balancing act between jetting for max power and possibly having a siezure. You had to choose. Water-cooling and better carbs made 2-stroke as reliable as the best 4-strokes at the time, the XR's. Husky made the first attempt at a truely high-performance 4-stroke. It WAS a grenade! About then Husaberg morphed out of Husky and for the first 10 years was a grenade with a zip-tie holding the pin in.....better, but not XR like.
What we have now is a very high-performance 4-stroke. Think Indy car. How many of those finish a race? How fast can YOU afford to go? Regular maintainance is essential not optional. That I agree with.
What we have now is a very high-performance 4-stroke. Think Indy car. How many of those finish a race? How fast can YOU afford to go? Regular maintainance is essential not optional. That I agree with.
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