L.M.C. Favoritism At Kalkaska

[Briggsracing23]

June 11th my dad and I attempted to ride the Kalkaska Enduro put on by the Lansing Motorcycle Club. We arrived 15 minutes after sign up opened. There were LMC members and friends (names not important) just ahead of us in line. Watching as they both (LMC member and friend) walk out with a minute above 30. My dad and I are up next and request a minute anywhere in late 20's or 30's. They replied "NOBODY can have a minute later than 20 until numbers 1-20 are filled. (*note-Known LMC member I compete against just walked out with a minute in the 30's)

From the information we were told we decided to hold off on signing up so 1-20 would fill and then we could obtain a later minute. We return 1 hour before sign up closes and again request a later minute. LMC member replied "We are not opening anything later than minute 41 and everything later than 18 is full." You can imagine our reaction. We had just been told that they would issue no numbers past 20 until 1-20 was full. Now when we returned they said 19-41 is full.

Words were exchanged about the obvious bias we saw the first time through sign up. There was no reply of any explanation by the LMC members nor the event promoter.

This type of favoritism is unsportsmanlike and should be stopped in our Enduro series. In my position as an A rider it is discouraging to watch someone I have to compete against bluntly recieve special treatment simply because of his name or club affiliation. We all pay $40 to ride and we should all have a shot at receiving a late minute. Especially in a race with virgin trail.

This bias action is by far the worst thing a club like the LMC could do.

 

[Trashrider]

Briggs,
It is unfortunate about your situation. I worked this event and can tell you for a fact that minutes 31 and 37 were wide open, not a single rider on them. I have always maintained that our district should go back to a lottery system. We did that years ago but there was a monumental snivel-fest over it and was changed to our current system of favoritism.
I will back you up at our sanction meeting to overturn this rule in December.

From the Dark Side, Mark Becker

 

[Briggsracing23]

I appreciate the support, it is exactly what we need to address this problem. Anyone else's view or support on this matter is appreciated.

Thanks, E. Briggs #23
(Muskegon Motorcycle Club)

 

[bbarel]

I agree that sounds very unfair.

 

[fatherandson]

As far as I know there were only two LMC members who raced on Sunday and we were the first two riders through sign up on SATURDAY night. I think I know who are referring to and he is NOT an LMC member.
One of the reasons that I race the series is to ride with my friends. I would not support the lottery system, unless the team class was reinstated to allow three guys who wanted to ride together to be on the same minute.

 

[RMinthewoods]

Mr briggs i am in ur same position..as i went to sign up sat nite..roughly 4ish 3 michigan riders includin one in my class request a minute in the 30's not sure which..surprisinly all 3 got there requested minute..i then approach the sign up ladies n ask for any minute in the mid to late 20's or any 30's n was told there are no minutes left..im like thats impossible as there were not enough ppl there to fill that many rows..so unwilling to fight with ppl puttin on the race i take a minute way earlier that i wanted...and to top it off when the lady put my row down on that sheet of paper..i just happened to see open minutes all throught the later half of the 20's..i agree this is a such a shame to happen..but other than that it was a great enduro !!

 

[Briggsracing23]

I think I know who are referring to and he is NOT an LMC member.

You may be right he may not be a member of the LMC but if you know who he is then you would know he is a "Lansing Guy" he is close to the lansing group and what I am trying to say is he only got the minute he wanted because of his name or affiliation with members. If I had his last name I would have recieved the minute I wanted.

To top all of this off when my dad (Leg. Officer of MMC) called the EVENT PROMOTER out on this favoritism he had no reply. Everyone still standing behind the table at sign up knew they were caught red handed saving numbers for their buddies and leaving the rest of us to break in the trail for them. I couldn't believe it when the Event Promoter looked at us like he did nothing wrong by denying us open numbers and letting his friends or "big names" have them. Its wrong and not how Enduro racing should work.

Anyway I had a great roadtrip to Kalkaska and back home to race the MMC harescramble.

 

[Mully]

It is unfortunate about your situation. I worked this event and can tell you for a fact that minutes 31 and 37 were wide open, not a single rider on them.

As a District 15 rider, (this event is on our Enduro Schedule) I must say that I too am a little disappointed. I signed up Saturday night and was told there is nothing open except in the 50's and higher, and 15's and below, everything else was gone. Except for the AA's, numbers should be first come, first serve.

But I still had a blast !!!!!!!! :)

See ya at the Jack Pine.

Mully

 

[nzambon]

Ditto we were told sunday morning no #'s in the 30's and got 13. NO DOUBT LOTTERY IS THE ONLY FAIR WAY TO DO SIGN UP.

 

[UP Magoo]

As long as it continues to be accepted practice to "just hang arrows in the woods'" with no additional trail clearing or trail "burn-in" for the early minute riders, later minutes DO have a substantial advantage over earlier minutes (even with the potential of bottlenecks).
Several people that signed up Sunday morning did get later minutes that were "saved for them." If the minutes were available, they should have been available to all -- it is unfair to "penalize," or limit someones choice, just because they didn't sign up until Sunday morning.
Event promoters need to do everything they can to keep the playing field as fair as possible. Playing games with row selection at sign up is ridiculous!
D-14 needs to address this issue in a very serious manner! We have enough trouble encouraging people to attend Enduros -- these shenanigans only continue to hurt our sport.
IMO, without the lottery system, it will be difficult for us to get past this. As I've had this discussion before (see last years Jackpine threads), I know what Trashrider is talking about -- the "good-ole boys" don't want to see it changed.

 

[salgeek]

Signed up @ 6:30pm Sat. As I was standing in line someone approached the table and started asking what's available in the upper 20's and low to mid 30's. He said give me 2x for so and so, and 3y for so and so. They wrote the guys names on the back of the numbers and transfered them to a small basket off to the side. The basket had numerous numbers in it. I'm so clueless I figured it was all on the up and up.

If people need to cheat to be competitive - they SUCK.

 

[BadgerMan]

Although I did not always like it at the time, drawing numbers seemed liked a “more fairer” method when it was done “back in the day”. The first enduro that I rode had a bunch of virgin stuff and I ended up drawing an 02! Lucky me!

Of course, I am sure there were still a bunch of “shenanigans” going on with that method. You drew from whatever numbers were put in the box by the club...............

Yeah, bring back the team competition and allow them to ride the same minute together. That was always fun anyway.

Also, it may force more riders to learn timekeeping if they can’t always count on riding with their computer sporting buddy.

 

[UP Magoo]

Signed up @ 6:30pm Sat. As I was standing in line someone approached the table and started asking what's available in the upper 20's and low to mid 30's. He said give me 2x for so and so, and 3y for so and so. They wrote the guys names on the back of the numbers and transfered them to a small basket off to the side. The basket had numerous numbers in it. I'm so clueless I figured it was all on the up and up.

Post Of The Day!
:boss:

 

[Briggsracing23]

I see from all of your replies we arn't the only people that are witnesses to what the LMC is doing. I just could not believe it! We ended up stuffing the whole thing and not riding. I know that is a little drastic but I dont want to support the LMC crooks with my sign up fee. They need all they can get and they just lost 2(father and I) there, and 2 more for the Jackpine. I just dont think anything will change if someone doesn't call them out on it. So if you have time and want to see something done write too [email protected] or call AMA head @ (614)-856-1900. Ask for Enduro division and show support. The people at AMA are already well aware of this situation and nothing will change unless they here from riders...

 

[fatherandson]

I was not aware of the whole story, nor will I defend it. However, if I pre-register for a national enduro and provide a request for a row assignment....I do not consider that action to be cheating.

 

[Wolverine423]

I was not aware of the whole story, nor will I defend it. However, if I pre-register for a national enduro and provide a request for a row assignment....I do not consider that action to be cheating.

I agree.

DW

 

[Briggsracing23]

Your right pre-registering would be fine but when there is no pre-registering available to everyone in this case. This case they simply saved rows for certian people (certian names). With pre-registering I would like to think we all have an equal chance of getting the row we want. In this case I had no chance at getting a good row because the event promoter and members decided to only give the late minutes to certian people at certian times. Thats cheating not pre-registering.But hey I step back and look at who was running the show and it doesn't suprise me much. Its just pathetic and needs to be dealt with.

 

[bbarel]

Did Kalkaska have mail-in pre-registration?

 

[salgeek]

... However, if I pre-register for a national enduro and provide a request for a row assignment....I do not consider that action to be cheating.

Me neither. Was Treetops a National?

 

[salgeek]

equal chance of getting the row we want.

agreed ... based on the order you line up in, to sign-up for the event.

 

[UP Magoo]

However, if I pre-register for a national enduro and provide a request for a row assignment....I do not consider that action to be cheating.

Pre-registering for a number with the promoter keeping all available numbers "available" until paid for, is different than what happened at the Tree Topper. At a National, all numbers (except the National assigned numbers) are available on a first-come, first-serve basis to paid registrants. This IS NOT what happened at the Tree Topper -- Saturday registrants were allowed any minute they desired, and Sunday registrants were limited to certain minutes -- even though they were available (unless you made prior arrangements, evidently).

 

[Briggsracing23]

Saturday registrants were allowed any minute they desired, and Sunday registrants were limited to certain minutes --

My entire mix up was on Saturday at the beginning of sign up. In other words we were one of the firsts to sign up. So on Saturday they told us 1-20 must fill first then they would open 20-41. This meaning 20-41 were all open except AA numbers. We came back later to see if 1-20 had filled so we could get on 21-40. **She**(Standing next to event promoter) replied 21-41 is full minute 18 is the latest I have.!!!!!!They just said 2 hours earlier 1-20 had to fill!!!!!

Now explain to me how with no pre-registration, not a national and there wasn't 30 riders in the whole area there yet. that many numbers were full.!?!?!

Ill tell you why...the club members wanted us to break their trail for the AA riders along with the club riders and their buddies they saved numbers for. I don't know about you guys but I dont pay 40$ to get shafted out of a fair chance to compete against them.

And the promoter acted like thats how it should be when it was yelled in his face...he just shrugged and laughed like thats the way it is...well no its not only at the LMC.

 

[BadgerMan]

Saturday registrants were allowed any minute they desired, and Sunday registrants were limited to certain minutes -- even though they were available (unless you made prior arrangements, evidently).

I think what you said is not what I think you were trying to say………..I think. :coocoo: ;)

 

[KTM Mike]

We came back later to see if 1-20 had filled so we could get on 21-40. **She**(Standing next to event promoter) replied 21-41 is full minute 18 is the latest I have.!!!!!!They just said 2 hours earlier 1-20 had to fill!!!!!
.

whooboy...i was gonna stay outta this quagmire...but now I gotta jump in. That statement about minute 18 was said specifically to me as I was registering.

I am a C class rider - and really dont like being out in front of the A guys. I registerd Saturday evening, fairly early on. I asked for 3 numbers (for me and my two friends in line right behind me) on rows between 36 and 40 - the response was the latest they had was 18. (EDIT: - BTW - I do not recall anyone saying that 21 to 40 was full - I do recall comment about that was all they were going to fill now (before 20). It would seem implied however that past 20 was full) I voiced a bit of protest, briefly thought about getting back in line later on, but went ahead anyhow. The 3 of us all ended up on row 18. As it all turned out, being in front of the A class guys was not an issue at all. Being on near virgin trail did cause lots of moments of "arrow arrow whose got the arrow". But, in talking to a SWEEP rider after the event, he had trouble finding trail after EVERYONE went through! I am not so sure a later minute would of helped me any! Briggs - to bad you did not ride though - you missed a really nice ride. I would say this event is on my top 3 list of all enduros I have done! (not that it is that many).

I really dont think the issue is the handful of numbers set aside for specific people - my guess is, it really is only a handful. I think the real issue is with what sounds like an inconsistent way they tried to fill up early numbers.. I can understand them not wanting a rider here, a rider there, with empty rows in between. To avoid that, I can see why they would want to fill from early on down. My impression is that is really what the intent was, and that is what really has caused this "issue".

Filling all rows in sure is convenient for the club putting on the event. BUT..... maybe they do need to simply put the "customer" first. In my opinion, the club putting on the event needs to ignore it's convenience.

As I see it Two options...one way or the other...

1) you can pick your row, ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, where it is indeed first come first serve (screw worrying about 5 or 6 inside people with rows set aside...I really dont care about that), withOUT the club trying to force early rows full. There does need to be a way for someone who is registering to be able to set aside #s for their buddies. (maybe limit it to ON the row the registering rider request, nothing more) I think the real trouble here was the effort (for understandable reason) to force early rows full to avoid empty rows.

OR

2) True "lottery" system. But - with some way to allow someone to get their buddy on a row with them (I was able to do that and had a blast checking in and out with my friend all day long). Maybe, when the first member of a group of riders (limited to 4 or less) draws a row, that is the row for all 4. No clue how to handle if the draw is on a row of less than the # of riders wanted.

I must say, that at first I was not happy being "forced" to an early row. But, I still had a blast, still enjoyed the event, and honestly at this point, dont much care which way it goes as long as it is fair and consistent! For me its not about big sponsorship money, its about the ride! I had a (for me) great ride.

 

[salgeek]

I really dont think the issue is the handful of numbers set aside for specific people - my guess is, it really is only a handful. I think the real issue is with what sounds like an inconsistent way they tried to fill up early numbers.. I can understand them not wanting a rider here, a rider there, with empty rows in between. To avoid that, I can see why they would want to fill from early on down. My impression is that is really what the intent was, and that is what really has caused this "issue".

Handfull or not - I have a very hard time understanding a person that is requesting numbers to be saved - I saw it for my own eyes. "Issue"? It is a problem and it's unsportsman like.