New Honda Dirt Bikes
- Thread starter MWEISSEN
- Start date
roosteater
~SPONSOR~
- Dec 27, 1999
- 216
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Oh God...what a letdown! When I heard they were releasing a 150 and a 230, I thought for sure that they'd be geared a little more towards moto. These things look hideous! I thought for sure that they'd have aluminum frames and they'd really raise the bar here.
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO HONDA?
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO HONDA?
Longtime it was not only those 2 bikes they are talking about, it's all the other stuff too! Did you see the new turbo sea-doo? As for there advertising look at us who seen it! Looks like good advertising to me!
ps, My guess is a Snewzuki will never smoke anything!
ps, My guess is a Snewzuki will never smoke anything!
DR4Ztrokes
Member
- Aug 16, 2001
- 19
- 0
Oh my gosh. I have been kicking around options for replacement bikes for my sons and have been hearing about Honda coming out with "competitive" smaller 4-strokes. By competitive I thought something on a serious nature
to compete head to head with 2-stoke MX at half their displacement. But instead they introduce vintage machines and they are still a year away to boot. Honda was their first bikes, and I can say they were trying hard to be loyalists. Over the course of looking at those pictures my sons just got a business lesson, and at such an early age.
Maybe Honda awaits AMA determination on 4-stroke displacement for the mini class, before coming out w/ real hardware? As "trail bikes" what they are doing here would not be impacted by that ruling. That and trying to keep costs low at entry level is only things I can think of to explain what I see.
to compete head to head with 2-stoke MX at half their displacement. But instead they introduce vintage machines and they are still a year away to boot. Honda was their first bikes, and I can say they were trying hard to be loyalists. Over the course of looking at those pictures my sons just got a business lesson, and at such an early age.
Maybe Honda awaits AMA determination on 4-stroke displacement for the mini class, before coming out w/ real hardware? As "trail bikes" what they are doing here would not be impacted by that ruling. That and trying to keep costs low at entry level is only things I can think of to explain what I see.
DualSportr
Member
- Aug 22, 2000
- 527
- 0
Yes, it's disappointing these aren't CRF250's and a (true!) CRF150, but if we hadn't been spoiled by the CRF450 and the YZF 426/250, we'd see these for what they really are:
An AWESOME upgrade for the XR100 and the XR200.
These are just what the beginning and intermediate trail rider have been begging for. The 150 will be the TTR's competition, and the CRF230 will hopefully be much lighter than the TTR 250, and better performance (and suspension) than the TTR225.
Yes, I'm still waiting for a true CRF250, with a water cooled engine and that CR125 chassis that I LOVE, but i think it's still a year away. Still, I'm very happy that Honda has not forgotten the trail rider market, and has really offered an upgrade for two of their most popular models which have only seen "bold new graphics" upgrades since the early '80s.
An AWESOME upgrade for the XR100 and the XR200.
These are just what the beginning and intermediate trail rider have been begging for. The 150 will be the TTR's competition, and the CRF230 will hopefully be much lighter than the TTR 250, and better performance (and suspension) than the TTR225.
Yes, I'm still waiting for a true CRF250, with a water cooled engine and that CR125 chassis that I LOVE, but i think it's still a year away. Still, I'm very happy that Honda has not forgotten the trail rider market, and has really offered an upgrade for two of their most popular models which have only seen "bold new graphics" upgrades since the early '80s.
dualsporter,
How is it an AWESOME upgrade? It's the same as the XR bikes.
And don't you think it's a shame that they gave the name CRF150F to a bike that really should have been labled an XR. Totally ruins the 'theory' that honda race bikes start with CR, completely misleading, which is why so many are disappointed I think.
How is it an AWESOME upgrade? It's the same as the XR bikes.
And don't you think it's a shame that they gave the name CRF150F to a bike that really should have been labled an XR. Totally ruins the 'theory' that honda race bikes start with CR, completely misleading, which is why so many are disappointed I think.
DualSportr
Member
- Aug 22, 2000
- 527
- 0
I agree completely that they should not have called these bikes CRF, they should still be XR - definitely!!!
Regarding the engines being the same. The CRF 230 appears to be similar to the XR200, but it's hard to tell from the photos. It WILL be more displacement, and a better cylinder (the old XR200 used the same cylinder/liner as the XR185, just bored out). Hopefully some of the displacement increase comes from a longer stroke, since this is the most effective mod for this engine.
The CRF150 engine appears to be similar to the old SL125 (which has a much stronger tranny than the XR100). We'll just have to wait and see, but the engine cases appear much larger, which will be a huge help for reliability when increasing displacement on this bike (the XR100 suffers many reliability problems when modified because it started life as a 75cc engine).
The chassis mods alone will be very helpful for most riders. The XR200 suffers from poor brakes, mediocre suspension and a flexy frame. The pictures I've seen of the CRF230 look to have better componentry all around. Same for the CRF 150, which Honda obviously designed as their TTR beater.
Still, they should not have called them CRF, unless they want to think up some new moniker for their race bikes!
Regarding the engines being the same. The CRF 230 appears to be similar to the XR200, but it's hard to tell from the photos. It WILL be more displacement, and a better cylinder (the old XR200 used the same cylinder/liner as the XR185, just bored out). Hopefully some of the displacement increase comes from a longer stroke, since this is the most effective mod for this engine.
The CRF150 engine appears to be similar to the old SL125 (which has a much stronger tranny than the XR100). We'll just have to wait and see, but the engine cases appear much larger, which will be a huge help for reliability when increasing displacement on this bike (the XR100 suffers many reliability problems when modified because it started life as a 75cc engine).
The chassis mods alone will be very helpful for most riders. The XR200 suffers from poor brakes, mediocre suspension and a flexy frame. The pictures I've seen of the CRF230 look to have better componentry all around. Same for the CRF 150, which Honda obviously designed as their TTR beater.
Still, they should not have called them CRF, unless they want to think up some new moniker for their race bikes!
SpeedyManiac
Member
- Aug 8, 2000
- 2,374
- 0
Quit your whining, beggars can't be choosers. The CRF150F is going to smoke the TT-R125, and the CRF230F looks sweet, and should kill the TT-R225. Honda will come out with a CRF250R. You guys say it is a disgrace to the CR line, but, honda was quite smart. Think of it this way, you have a little boy (or girl) who idolizes a red rider (RC, etc) and wants to be just like him. They look at the XRs, and see what they are, and don't like them, they want to have a look alike MX bike, but you know they can't handle a CR80 or any other real mx bike. The new CRF-F are the perfect bike for them. They look like their other CR counterparts, and are a decent enough bike for the kid to learn on and have great fun. And the prices wont break the bank. Kid's happy, parent's happy. The CRF150F will be a great play bike. Everyone has been hoping for something to replace the XR100 and the XR200. The XRs have the designation R, but they aren't race bikes (usually). I'm happy for the new bikes, they'll be great. I wasn't expecting anything except for the CRF450R and a bunch of street bikes, scooters and PWCs. We should be happy we got those bikes. Personally, I was hoping to see a surprise CRF250R. It didn't happen, boo hoo, oh well, it will, probably soon. Besdies, I can't afford a new bike anyways, so it gives me time to save up money for when they do come out with the CRF250R and (hopefully) XRF250R. I would also like them now turn the XR200R back into the bike it once was, not some dinky beginner bike, but a woods weapon for the lightweight class, like it once was, with lights, longer suspension, full sized bike size, disc brakes and a 18 inch rear wheel. The XL series would also be nice to see again. Honda will probably do this in the future, I hope, give them time, BUT, don't complain about prices, if they put good stuff on them. You guys ask for full disc brakes, etc, but are you willing to spend $3500 for a entry bike for your kids? Most people wont, unless they got money. Bravo Honda, the rest of you, quitcherwhining.
SpeedyManiac,
Especially when you figure that the difference between a $2500 bike and a $3500 bike is only $20 a month over 5 years (payments shown as an example). If your gonna get a bike and a guy shows you the good bike and the BEST bike and it's only $20 a month extra, are you gonna squak? I wouldn't. Hmm, let's see, better brakes, double the suspension, easy horsepower, and even though he may never hit the track, it would be competitive in the hands of a good rider.I think most involved parents make smart purchases and think things through pretty well. If you can't afford a helmet, you shouldn't ride, that kinda statment.
I think the bike companies underestimate what we are willing to fork over. Look at Cannondale and their tricked out quads.... $10,000+ and they are sold out everywhere and Cannondale (even with the minor snafu's they encounter as a new manufacturer) is turning out some trick stuff. You don't need a $10,000 quad, but somebodies buying them...
Same with little bikes, I've researched it to death. I know exactly what it should be, based on her abilities (and mostly, lack there of) and what she wants to do onthe bike. And no amount of money would make me settle for a bike that wouldn't fit her and her skill level, regardless of cost.
I think most parents are the same. Parents that are encouraging young riders know the risks for their kids and will do whatever, and spend whatever it takes to minimize all risks. My 12 year old is probably getting a set of asterisk leg braces for christmas... Does he need them... NOPE... Do I want him to be safe as possible, yep. What's a trip to the emergency room and a permanent limp worth to ya? It's a heck of a lot more than $500 I can tell ya that.
HONDA, we'll spend the money... Give us a real 150 thumper with 20+ power, and 11" of suspension geared for a 90-130 pound rider and we will give you our money in cubic proportions.
I don't know that I agree with that statement. I feel that parents that buy bikes (99% of the business) are willing to buy the safest and best bike for any situation regardless of cost (to the best of their ability).
Especially when you figure that the difference between a $2500 bike and a $3500 bike is only $20 a month over 5 years (payments shown as an example). If your gonna get a bike and a guy shows you the good bike and the BEST bike and it's only $20 a month extra, are you gonna squak? I wouldn't. Hmm, let's see, better brakes, double the suspension, easy horsepower, and even though he may never hit the track, it would be competitive in the hands of a good rider.I think most involved parents make smart purchases and think things through pretty well. If you can't afford a helmet, you shouldn't ride, that kinda statment.
I think the bike companies underestimate what we are willing to fork over. Look at Cannondale and their tricked out quads.... $10,000+ and they are sold out everywhere and Cannondale (even with the minor snafu's they encounter as a new manufacturer) is turning out some trick stuff. You don't need a $10,000 quad, but somebodies buying them...
Same with little bikes, I've researched it to death. I know exactly what it should be, based on her abilities (and mostly, lack there of) and what she wants to do onthe bike. And no amount of money would make me settle for a bike that wouldn't fit her and her skill level, regardless of cost.
I think most parents are the same. Parents that are encouraging young riders know the risks for their kids and will do whatever, and spend whatever it takes to minimize all risks. My 12 year old is probably getting a set of asterisk leg braces for christmas... Does he need them... NOPE... Do I want him to be safe as possible, yep. What's a trip to the emergency room and a permanent limp worth to ya? It's a heck of a lot more than $500 I can tell ya that.
HONDA, we'll spend the money... Give us a real 150 thumper with 20+ power, and 11" of suspension geared for a 90-130 pound rider and we will give you our money in cubic proportions.
zio
Mr. Atlas
- Jul 28, 2000
- 2,284
- 0
anyone know of a "contact us" or "comments" e-mail address for Honda? I'd like to tell them why I won't be buying another Honda next time around. Like they could give a flying you-know-what, but I'm just a little peeved. kTm can make a 520 that's green sticker legal, why can't lard-butt Honda do the same? the friggin' greenies are giving themselves hernias trying to get rid of two-strokes (first, then the 4-strokes later). why doesn't Honda break a sweat? I put in overtime to pay for my last CR, I expect the same out of them. For crap's sake, Yamaha has enough resources to build the YZF 426(and improve it each year), the 250F, the TTR-125, Update the YZ85, class-leading YZ250 and 125. So what gives? Two heaps of 10 year old technology with the"look and attitude of Honda's CRF450"? Why aren't more people thoroughly insulted at the horse turds they've been smearing in our faces? I'm sure they'll sell out of all of 'em. They always do. Follow the leader, he's on a Honda.:silly:
Stupid XR650 for Johnny Campbell and Tim Staab. :( Poor XR400 that hasn't been touched since the day she crossed the threshold:( Screw 'em. I don't care if they come out with the most bitchin' off-roader in two years. Now is what matters. kTm here I come.
Stupid XR650 for Johnny Campbell and Tim Staab. :( Poor XR400 that hasn't been touched since the day she crossed the threshold:( Screw 'em. I don't care if they come out with the most bitchin' off-roader in two years. Now is what matters. kTm here I come.
- Thread starter
- #41
One things companies like Honda don't realize is that the foo foo bikes with foo foo suspension are LESS SAFE for our kids and other starting riders than those that have better suspension. My wife has an XR200 that my oldest son cut his teeth on. As he built his confidence (and speed), he pushed the 200 more to keep up with me, then try to pass me. On trails with whoops, the lousy suspension would let him get out of control and buck him off. For awhile, he didn't want to ride anymore.....now he does, and rides a YAMAHA YZ250F quite well. My middle kid now is in the same boat, but the bucking off session has scared him so he doesn't want to ride.
I'm one that would pay more for a starter bike with decent brakes and suspension. Keep the motor fairly tame (but easily upgradeable), but bring the rest of the bike out of the 70's, and I think they'd sell even more.
I'm one that would pay more for a starter bike with decent brakes and suspension. Keep the motor fairly tame (but easily upgradeable), but bring the rest of the bike out of the 70's, and I think they'd sell even more.
SpeedyManiac
Member
- Aug 8, 2000
- 2,374
- 0
Some people can't afford really expensive bikes, so they buy used and end up with something even more unsafe. Drum brakes work quite well, people used them just fine before disc brakes were put on dirtbikes. You can make the brakes work, just give it some time. Sure, in a perfect world, everybike would have top of the line parts, but this world isn't perfect. Honda will come out with a CRF250R and CRF150R (or something like that, maybe a 125 or 160, depending on AMA rules). Some people just want a decente bike for riding that wont break the bank. Some people just dont have the money to spend $4000+ for a bike.
DualSportr
Member
- Aug 22, 2000
- 527
- 0
By the looks of it, Honda will be meeting your needs with the new models. The suspension and braking on the new 150 and 230 look much better than what was originally offered on the XR 100 and 200.
Even though it's easy for us to build a "+20hp mini with awesome suspension and excellent brakes", it's harder to find the person willing to spend the money for it. Especially since a true +20hp four stroke in a mini chassis would be difficult for junior to control (for comparison, a stock XR250 puts out 20hp). Although the adult riders will love it (I know I do! and I've ridden most of the 20hp minibikes ever built).
Yes, i know a CR80 puts out about 17 - 20 hp, but it doesn't have the torque. A 20hp four stroke is more tractable and tends to be faster for the average rider.
A realistic package for a four stroke mini bike will be something in the 15hp range, with upgrades to reach the 20hp range. Will it happen? Not before AMA changes the rules, it won't!
Just my .02 cents worth.
You know what it is, Honda has decided to err' more on the side of 'proven' than what they think we really want. Just in case we really want it, but aren't willing to fork over the cash. Which doesn't apply in the 4stroke 150 mini thumper.
A company like BBR has found people willing to fork out $7500-$10,000 for a kick butt mini, all the mags rave, people love them... It really should have been the handwriting on the wall for Honda. I suppose on the bright side, it sure would have nipped BBR sales in the bud if Honda had built a production bike like BBR is whipping together.
Nearly every mag had like a monthly review on killer BBR mini's. You'd think Somebody would have noticed that at Honda...
Still a major disappointment. :(
A company like BBR has found people willing to fork out $7500-$10,000 for a kick butt mini, all the mags rave, people love them... It really should have been the handwriting on the wall for Honda. I suppose on the bright side, it sure would have nipped BBR sales in the bud if Honda had built a production bike like BBR is whipping together.
Nearly every mag had like a monthly review on killer BBR mini's. You'd think Somebody would have noticed that at Honda...
Still a major disappointment. :(
DualSportr
Member
- Aug 22, 2000
- 527
- 0
They do. All the big four watch the aftermarket industry VERY closely. You'll have to ask the BBR folks how many of their bikes have ended up in Honda hands - it's not for me to tell.
Yes, it's a different four stroke world these days - but the bikes you're looking at right now for the '02 release were in the design phase 3 years ago. It takes manufacturers that long to get a bike from a solid idea to real life.
The YZF doesn't count. Yamaha had that handed to them on a silver platter by the tech who designed it. From what I hear, the guy was shopping it to all the manufacturers - all Yamie had to do was see it for the visionary idea it was and throw money at it. Same story with the 250. The story I hear is that the same tech designed it because everyone said it couldn't be done!
Anyway - these bikes fill a niche. Not the go-fast ride-hard niche, but the family scoot for mom and the kids niche. This is a good market to target. Just ask kawasaki - they're coming out with a TTR90 styled KLX110 next year - and not a single KX-R 450 to be seen! I don't see anyone upset at them!
DualSportr,
I agree, they fill a niche, but I think a lot of us griping at the name of the bike, it's a bit misleading to those that follow bikes. I mean it got the CR designation and there is nothing CR about it other than maybe the color. CRF150F... It may be a one 150, but it isn't a bike that should be called a CRF, makes people think it's raceworthy, and it's no more raceworthy than the TTR.
I just feel cheated, not by the bike, but by how it's marketed and named.
I agree, they fill a niche, but I think a lot of us griping at the name of the bike, it's a bit misleading to those that follow bikes. I mean it got the CR designation and there is nothing CR about it other than maybe the color. CRF150F... It may be a one 150, but it isn't a bike that should be called a CRF, makes people think it's raceworthy, and it's no more raceworthy than the TTR.
I just feel cheated, not by the bike, but by how it's marketed and named.
DualSportr
Member
- Aug 22, 2000
- 527
- 0
Stormer, I agree wholeheartedly! If they wanted to give the bikes a sportier monniker than XR, they should have thought of something different - like Yamie came up with the TT-R designation for their newer TT/XT lineup.
Honda really should have thought harder about the implications.
Honda really should have thought harder about the implications.
firecracker22
Sponsoring Member
- Oct 23, 2000
- 3,213
- 0
silver linings . . .
Just think, though, Dualsportr, how good these are for our respective employers. What fun we can have with the new CRFs!
Just think, though, Dualsportr, how good these are for our respective employers. What fun we can have with the new CRFs!
- Oct 13, 1999
- 2,807
- 0
Boy, some people sure got their panties in a wad over this one... no offense ladies. Let's diagnose this thread. Honda has basically upgraded the XR100 and 200 into the new CRF150 and CRF230. On one hand some people think it's a joke because the engine is air cooled and the rear brake is a drum style. On the other hand, some people think it's great because both bikes are getting more displacement and a front disc.
Let's look at it from Honda's standpoint. The XR100 and 200 were extremely profitable. There have been no major changes for years, so the tooling was paid for long ago. Two years ago Yamaha introduced the TTR125 and 225 and pulled the rug out from underneath Honda. XR100 and 200 sales have been dismal. Honda simply upgraded the XR100 and 200 to compete with the TTR's. Of course they also have to compete on a price level too. Liquid cooled engines and rear disc brakes would add cost to a bike that is aimed at the entry-level consumer. Sounds like a good business decision to me.
Besides, how many of us will actually be buying of of these bikes for our own use?
Let's look at it from Honda's standpoint. The XR100 and 200 were extremely profitable. There have been no major changes for years, so the tooling was paid for long ago. Two years ago Yamaha introduced the TTR125 and 225 and pulled the rug out from underneath Honda. XR100 and 200 sales have been dismal. Honda simply upgraded the XR100 and 200 to compete with the TTR's. Of course they also have to compete on a price level too. Liquid cooled engines and rear disc brakes would add cost to a bike that is aimed at the entry-level consumer. Sounds like a good business decision to me.
Besides, how many of us will actually be buying of of these bikes for our own use?
