new KTM, bad suspension?
- Thread starter 426 Pilot
- Start date
- May 14, 2000
- 1,082
- 6
This is an untrue statement, increased sag will decrease rake which inturn will decrease stability and lend itself to headshake.
Most people feel the forks (especially on the 03's) are harsh, and in most cases this is a result of restrictive valving, (even moreso when new), and in many cases, the increased sag will put the fork in a position where the initial portion of the stroke is already into the mid-valving, which will make the fork feel even more harsh. Plushness begins at the top of the stroke, where the valving is the lightest. Get enough preload (spring) in there to gain correct sag, and the forks will feel more plush in the initial part of the stroke. Also, use 2.5 - 5wt oil.
- May 14, 2000
- 1,082
- 6
I think you need to re-read what I posted
True
If what you are trying to say is that by reducing the rake angle, increases the turning radius, then you are correct.... But,..increasing sag to get quicker turning is absolutly wrong and counter productive, why compromise the function of you suspension with increased sag,......You can render the same results by simply sliding the forks up in the clamps???...... Besides,...this thread is about suspension, not turning radius.
The sag setting are published for a reason,..If you guys are running more than the specified sag, I assure you, you are compromising the functions of your suspension.
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I think we are disagreeing because you guys are talking about forks while I'm talking about the shock. More sag in the shock slows turning. More sag in the fork speeds up turning. I put the light stock shock spring back on my 02' KTM200exc yesterday which gives me about 115mm of sag with 32mm of free sag under my 190lb body.
This is a lighter spring than recomended but I couldn't get the heavier spring to work right even after a second re-valve. If this doesn't work I'm selling the bike and going back to a wr250f which has excellent suspension right out of the box.
This is a lighter spring than recomended but I couldn't get the heavier spring to work right even after a second re-valve. If this doesn't work I'm selling the bike and going back to a wr250f which has excellent suspension right out of the box.
Barbarian, maybe I'm also confused....what do you mean by the spring "gives" you 115mm of sag? Are you not setting the sag to correct specifications? I've always been in the mindset that you must set the correct weighted sag, and then see if that "gives" you the correct unladen sag. If not, then the spring needs to be adjusted appropriately so that both are within spec.
I've always felt as Mr. Shaw does, in that if you can't obtain the specified sags, then you are comprimizing the mechanics of the shocks.
I've always felt as Mr. Shaw does, in that if you can't obtain the specified sags, then you are comprimizing the mechanics of the shocks.
Does anyone recall an article in which Dick Burleson rode several different bikes and chose the KTM 450 E/XC as the best (by far). As a matter of fact I believe he said it was one of the best bikes he had ever ridden. The bikes all had work done and the KTM had the suspension set up by Enduro Engineering. I would think he knows a thing or two about motorcycles and suspension. I believe most suspension problems are related to improper set up (sag, spring rates, etc.).
John
John
- May 14, 2000
- 1,082
- 6
Just to back-up what Justice is saying; Set-up is most important. Take a guy like Burleson, (5'-6" probaly 150#'s soak and wet), and a rider like myself, (6'-1" & 250pnds), our set-up components will be completly different...... But our achieved sags should be the same, on our own bikes of course!
Enduro Engineering did my suspension and I'm really happy with my "crappy ol KTM" suspension. I'm doing much better on my new bike. We did spend some time getting static sag right and did a couple shim stack adjustments. I guess I don't understand those statments complaining about the suspension but I've had it set up right from day one so maybe thats why I don't understand it -because it was right from the get go.
www.Enduroeng.com
www.Enduroeng.com
slideways11
Sponsoring Member
- Apr 18, 2000
- 411
- 0
The 01YZ250 was probably one of the best out of the crate bikes ever. And with a little suspension tunning it was fantastic. I am still kicking myself in the ass for buying an 02YZ250.... the suspension has been back to MX-Tech 3 times and just got worse everytime. I am sure there is someone who can sort your KTM suspension but to make it as plush as your old YZ will be tough.
I've read several comments about not adjusting the suspension until the bike is completely broken in. I disagree and here's why. When you first begin the engine and suspension break in procedure you want to test the brakes and feel how the suspension is working at slower speeds for safety reasons. You want control at low speeds before getting aggressive. Start working with the clickers in the middle postion and adjust 2 clicks in the direction you need to go and evaluate the results. I place a zip tie on the front fork leg to see how much travel I'm getting on braking, begining with easy and advancing to hard braking. When you find good control settings at lower speeds you then increase to medium speed. Suspension break in time takes a little longer than the engine. You can help the forks along by using a lot of hard breaking at lower speeds, you'll probably find you need to bleed your brakes as well and adjust proper free play. Focusing on these areas makes the break in time fly. Get the correct springs for your weight and consider an oil change with the fluid in the middle range so you can adjust the level as you test for the forks.
The shock. Take apart the rear wheel, swingarm, and shock. Grease and torque to specs. With the shock mount unbolted raise and lower the swingarm to make sure the chain does not bind throughout the suspension travel range. Set the race sag to your preference. You may start with 100 mm and end up with more. Our friends at MXA even suggest a softer shock spring to soften the suspension action. I'm not surprised to read 120 mm of race sage has been suggested. Softening the rebound helps the suspension move a easier on a new system too. Feel what the suspension and braking are doing at lower speeds at soft, medium, and harder settings before moving on. One more PITA suggstion. Wipe offer the forklegs after washing the bike to remove hard water deposits which are bad. Godd luck. You CAN do it.
marcusgunby
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 9, 2000
- 6,450
- 2
kathy127 the pds 0 is the softest spring for the KTMs i beleive.
426 Pilot,
I own a 02 250 EXC, I haven't experienced suspension problems to the extent that some of these post have. I don't feel my suspension is perfect but the only place I feel that it is lacking is high speed whoops.
Turning up the compression damping on the shock helps this but then it seems to stiff in the woods sections.
But the advice I would give is if the bike doesn't inspire confidence, after you get it broke in and the suspension dialed in SELL IT!!! Don't settle for any bike that doesn't give you confidence, that causes injury.
I was fortunate to buy a bike from a dealer that new what he was doing when he set it up. I chose to be my bike from LANSING CYCLE. I live between three KTM dealerships and I'm glad I bought it from LC. I always tear apart my bikes when I buy them and reasemble with proper lubes, and torque. This is the firs bike I have ever bought that was 100% right off the floor, and believe my I tried to find something wrong.
If your bike feels like it is bucking the first adjustment I would make (after correctly setting sag) is turning up the rebound dampening. I would put the forks even with the clamps and increase the compression on them as well. I found with my bike a little more sag and increased compression seemed to work better over a large variety of terrian. Also did you bleed your forks? One of my best friends owns a 02 and 00 300 MXC and they both have a lot of snort too them this does make tuning the suspension more difficult, but it doesn't slow him down.
But I still feel strongly about the confidence thing, if you want to go fast or slow you need a bike that makes you feel confident, and that is what MY KTM does for me.
I own a 02 250 EXC, I haven't experienced suspension problems to the extent that some of these post have. I don't feel my suspension is perfect but the only place I feel that it is lacking is high speed whoops.
Turning up the compression damping on the shock helps this but then it seems to stiff in the woods sections.
But the advice I would give is if the bike doesn't inspire confidence, after you get it broke in and the suspension dialed in SELL IT!!! Don't settle for any bike that doesn't give you confidence, that causes injury.
I was fortunate to buy a bike from a dealer that new what he was doing when he set it up. I chose to be my bike from LANSING CYCLE. I live between three KTM dealerships and I'm glad I bought it from LC. I always tear apart my bikes when I buy them and reasemble with proper lubes, and torque. This is the firs bike I have ever bought that was 100% right off the floor, and believe my I tried to find something wrong.
If your bike feels like it is bucking the first adjustment I would make (after correctly setting sag) is turning up the rebound dampening. I would put the forks even with the clamps and increase the compression on them as well. I found with my bike a little more sag and increased compression seemed to work better over a large variety of terrian. Also did you bleed your forks? One of my best friends owns a 02 and 00 300 MXC and they both have a lot of snort too them this does make tuning the suspension more difficult, but it doesn't slow him down.
But I still feel strongly about the confidence thing, if you want to go fast or slow you need a bike that makes you feel confident, and that is what MY KTM does for me.
I've got about 160 miles on my '03 300 EXC in the Idaho Desert. I agree that it is stiff, but I can tell that the suspension is not yet broken in. It does, however handle REAL well, and the suspension works well. I'm looking forward to the point that it is broken in, for the plushness. My dealer told me to not even mess with setting the sag, or making adjustments to the suspension until I have 12-16 hours on it. Most of the guys around here soften them up with the clickers, then ride them the way they are, from what I understand. BTW, I'm 173#'s, 5'10".
- Thread starter
- #44
Well now that I have more time on the bike, I must admit that the suspension is getting a little better as far as the harshness goes, but the main problem I was having was that the bike felt wayyyy out of balance. The front end was soft and squirley at speed. I have gone in 12 clicks on the compression (stock is around 20 out) and it is much more confidence inspiring. I am giving the suspension one more break-in ride so I can figure out what all I will need to do.... Stiffer fork springs will be a must.
On another note... Has anyone tried a 13t front sprocket? I am finding that there is a gap between gears. Especially noticeable between 1st and 2nd, and 2nd and 3rd gears while in the hills... Anyone had luck with this?
Jon
On another note... Has anyone tried a 13t front sprocket? I am finding that there is a gap between gears. Especially noticeable between 1st and 2nd, and 2nd and 3rd gears while in the hills... Anyone had luck with this?
Jon
My suspension was done by Enduro Eng. also. The shock twice. I still don't like it. Thats why I'm now experimenting with a softer shock- spring. The forks feel really good, but the shock is stiff as a board and/or seems to ride very high making the front end stink-bug. The bike is terrible in whoops, the rear-end just doesn't go down into the travel enough, and the bike swaps around. Plus the bike darts around intering corners. My heavier wr250f was allot more confidence inspiring. Maybe I'm just a 4-stroke rider, and can't adapt to the 2-stroke. Not sure. Then again I could be one of those riders, like Ricky Carmical, who has a different style and needs a different set-up than most people.
EE has been really good to me. They did my second re-valve for free and I know they know what they are doing. Maybe I will try somebody else though. Then again, I might just find another 01' or 02' wr250f to ride. I'm getting tired of spending lots of money and not liking what I ride. I've had several dirt-bikes and this is the first one that had mystery problems in the rear-end.
And you don't think Alan Randt from Enduro Engineering, Laffertys mechanic-ya the Lafferty that won 5 National Enduro Championships on KTM's has a good working knowledge of WP stuff there Patty? No disrespect to Jeremy Wilkey but c-mon he ain't the only WP game in town.
- Dec 26, 1999
- 19,765
- 1
I agree there could be hundreds of shops that can do suspension service on the WP units no doubt. I also have no doubt that Alan is a very able mechanic and will forget more than I'll know about pumpkins. I also know EE has some excellent products and are some great folks. Something else I am sure of as well is that all MX-Tech does is suspension, that's their game so I'll venture that they may have a few tricks up their sleeve just based upon the accumulated knowledge. I am also aware that Jeremy spends time every year or even a few times each year with both the WP & KTM folks at their European HQs & production facilities. I think most folks might be able to see an improvement from either companies suspension services but when I blew my knee out I went to a knee specialist.
Not to add any fuel just my opinion.
I agree with Patman.
Alan is a great mind when it comes to KTM. One thing we have to agree on is very few of us can ride Mike Lafferty's bike with any type of ease. Us mortals would hate it. I am sure EE can get you way better than stock and actually hit the nail on the head in most cases. One thing MXTech does offer is a great network of shops worldwide that gathers data on many types and styles of riding. This data and how it is used to match suspension to rider is so important. John does the GNCC circuit and that subjects him to first hand off road experience. He gets to change and learn suspension first hand race to race...
OK enough of my plugging here (sorry) Alot of companies have this type network and that makes them get to the top.
I think from my reading and personal experience the KTM is one of the toughest beasts to tame. Is it possible , Yes, is there one fix all way, No.
One more thing...someone mentioned confidence. That is a big thing, there are guys that can ride anything at speed (my 13 year ld is like that, hop on ant go like ....) I am the fussy one , mind over matter...yes but everything matters to me. It has to feel right or i can not ride it worth a damn.
I agree with Patman.
Alan is a great mind when it comes to KTM. One thing we have to agree on is very few of us can ride Mike Lafferty's bike with any type of ease. Us mortals would hate it. I am sure EE can get you way better than stock and actually hit the nail on the head in most cases. One thing MXTech does offer is a great network of shops worldwide that gathers data on many types and styles of riding. This data and how it is used to match suspension to rider is so important. John does the GNCC circuit and that subjects him to first hand off road experience. He gets to change and learn suspension first hand race to race...
OK enough of my plugging here (sorry) Alot of companies have this type network and that makes them get to the top.
I think from my reading and personal experience the KTM is one of the toughest beasts to tame. Is it possible , Yes, is there one fix all way, No.
One more thing...someone mentioned confidence. That is a big thing, there are guys that can ride anything at speed (my 13 year ld is like that, hop on ant go like ....) I am the fussy one , mind over matter...yes but everything matters to me. It has to feel right or i can not ride it worth a damn.
