Opposed to a foreign car?

[Lutz]

You will sometimes read about a new vehicle (such as Hyundai) who says it won an award for highest initial quality in its class. They blurr the line between quality and how well a vehicle is actually made. They rate quality in vehicles by what options you can buy at a certain price... it has nothing to do with QUALITY OF WORKSMANSHIP.

People don't "perceive" lower or higher quality in vehicles, the facts and problems per 100 vehicles dictate reliability and quality.

If you want to see why people like myself buy Toyotas and Hondas, just search Consumer Reports for their recommended vehicles. Also search for the "problems per 100 vehicles". The fact that my Tundra was made in Indiana, by American workers, is something I appreciate very much.

Ryan

That's right. That's why the results of the J.D. Power survey I linked to are so important. They are based on the feedback of consumers on actual problems with their cars, rated on a "per 100" or similar scale. And it clearly shows that quality in terms of reliability among foreign and domestic vehicles has all but leveled off.

Also, while people can't perceive quality into vehicle, their perceptions of quality are clearly very important to what they decide to buy - whether their perceptions match factual (i.e. "per 100") truth remains to be seen.

 

[Ryone]

I've seen plenty of not-so-high mileage hondas (only in the low 100k range) smoking like crazy at all times due to burning oil getting past the rings and valve seals.

One thing that very few realize now is that domestic and foreign engines are almost ALL bulletproof. Any engine is going to fail when you don't change the fluids and let it breath fresh air. But, it's not uncommon for ANY engine to reach 300,000 miles or more when it has been maintained. The biggest discrepancy is how the vehicle has held up around it's engine. That's where the transmission, chassis, interior, and other aspects really come into play.

I see Hondas, Acuras, Neons, Mitsubishis, etc... all smoking horribly. BUT... these are always the "Fast and Furious" vehicles with fart-can mufflers and aftermarket spoilers on them. These idiots drive the piss out of those cars, and constantly dump money into re-manned engines. But they're the only people who think that a muffler, spoiler and body-kit will make them faster. Oh, and it has to be primed, not painted. :fft:

Ryan

 

[Ryone]

That's why the results of the J.D. Power survey I linked to are so important. They are based on the feedback of consumers on actual problems with their cars, rated on a "per 100" or similar scale. And it clearly shows that quality in terms of reliability among foreign and domestic vehicles has all but leveled off.

For some reason, JD Powers' data is very different than Consumer Reports' data. I've always trusted CR more than any other because they dont accept any advertising.

JD Powers LINK
Consumer Reports LINK

Ryan

 

[ellandoh]

I will probably never buy a domestic vehicle after seeing the problems my parents have had with their GMC Yukon. Domestic are great if you buy new and sell after 2-3 years to get a newer one. Otherwise it seems as soon as they hit around 90000km everything goes (we've had tranny, fuel pump, steering chip, a lock ring in the transfer case and about 10 other things, so far it's cost about $10000 to fix the vehicle which was in good shape when bought and hasn't been beat).

sounds as though the car was bought used?? if so, how do you know it was not beat, or if the oil was even changed more than 1 time b4 your parents bought it??

 

[CJG]

In the past 14 years since I graduated high school, I have only owned domestic vehicles. I will only talk about trucks since that's about all I've had. Since 1991 I've owned:
'91 Chevy 1500 4x4- Never a problem, owned two years, lots of miles
'93 Chevy 1500 4x4- Never a problem, lots of miles and lots of abuse(ex-girlfriend wrecked it twice), ran like new with virtually no maintenance(no parts replaced) when I sold it in '01.
'01 Chevy 1500 ext. cab Z71- never a problem, owned 1-1/2 years, high miles for age.
'02 Chevy Avalanche 1500 Z71- had a 4WD sensor malfunction, fixed in 10 minutes for free, owned 2-1/2 years, high miles for age.
'04 GMC 1500 ext. cab Z71- no problems, average miles, traded on new truck that has higher towing capacity since I'm towing more these days.
'05 Chevy 2500HD crew cab diesel- no problems yet, only owned 1-1/2 weeks, I love this truck so far, tows a trailer like it's not there, and it was assembled in Flint,MI.

I travel for work(retail construction), so it's not unusual for me to run lots of miles in a short amount of time. I've put 1,600 miles on my new truck in ten days, and I'm working closer to home than usual at the moment.

I think that there are alot of factors that come into play for most people when selecting a car, and alot of it is mental. For example, according to an email I received from CR, over 90% of the people who bought a new Nissan Titan said that they would buy one again. In spite of the fact that(again according to an email I received from CR) in it's first year it had one of the highest problem rates/100 of any vehicle made(around 44/100 if I remember correctly, cumputer crashed and lost email, along with EVERYTHING else). Though these were apparently minor first year type problems, it just goes to show that perception(and styling, the Titan is a good looking truck) is as important as reality. If you ask 100 people which car was more reliable last year, the Hyundai Sonata or the Honda Accord, 99 of them will probably say the Honda- and they'd be wrong.

I personally believe that today's domestic cars are very close in reliability to those made(or engineered) in Japan(I think the styling is behind though). But the reputation that the U.S. automakers made for themselves in the 70's and 80's is still haunting them today, and probably rightly so. If it weren't for their "screw the consumers, cars aren't meant to last forever" attitude in those days, they'd be outselling foreign cars in the U.S. 100/1 right now. I really like what the domestics are doing lately though, like the Thunderbird(sadly discontinued), Mustang, and Avalanche(while I never found it particularly good-looking, it's very innovative and offers tremendous utility). The big thing that the domestics need now, IMHO, are stylish, exciting, and, most importantly, highly reliable low priced starter cars. Most people's first car is an inexpensive starter car(mine was a used '85 Toyota Corolla), and their impressions of that car will effect their impressions of the company that made that car. If they're unhappy with their first car from a given manufacturer, they're probably going to look elsewhere when it's time to upgrade. IMO none of the domestic manufacturers currently make any inexpensive first-time cars that are the least bit stylish or exciting.

 

[+30]

junker

My 95 cherokee sport has 240k and keeps going. You have to spot any car all the accessories at that age. I feed it old race gas premix when I want rid of the stuff and chase it with a bottle of stp. Throw my fast food wrappers in the back , haul most of what a pickup can, and hang the bike off the hitch w/helper springs. Its valued at 800 bucks, never uses oil blah blah blah. When it finally goes another 800 bucks and Im back in business. Im done with buyin new stuff. Ill keep my rattletraps.My wife on the other hand, buys what looks good. And I hear women are 60 percent of the new car buyers. They want exotic crap not chevy celebritys. ----That being said, let me just say that Im sick of this so called "global economy" and if I had a job that wasn't being outsourced to third world countries in the interest of padding the executives pockets, and if I had some security in the workforce and if I had a raise or two in the last 10 years or so and if I had some disposable income, I would research and buy the vehicle that kept the most money in this country. I am willing to pay a premium for goods and products made in the USA because it shores us up. I check labels on almost everything I buy, it takes extra time but I th ink its worth it. Do you know how many pairs of running shoes I had to pull off the wall to find made in USA tag? I am also willing to deal with a little extra hassle of not having the 5+ consumer report rating on everything, in the interest of keeping American jobs and business going. Now I don't expect all of you out there to follow suit. Go grab the cheapest highest quality foreign stuff you can. Hell I cant even convince the old lady. We lost manufacturing economy years ago, the service economy is going to India, how many economies do we have remaining?Soon we all will be jumping the fence to get into Mexico.

 

[KDX1]

I've owned 2 Toyota 4-Runners. My First one was a 91' I bought used from a private owner. It was 4 years old with 40k miles on it. It was pretty basic, 5sp. trans. 4wd SR5. I drove it for almost 4 years before it was totalled from getting rearended. When I was hit it had 130k on it. The only real issue was a head gasket reacall. When it was wrecked it was in mint condition which got me $11k from the guys insurance company. Deciding what to buy to replace it was a no brainer. I took most of the insurance money and put it down on a new 99' Limited Runner. My 99' is now 6 years old with 125k miles. The only real issue has been the dealership that serviced it for a timing belt replacement. The stealorship screwed up the threads on the transmission cooling lines where they feed into the bottom of the radiator thus causing me to have to replace it. I will keep this one until the wheels fall off! Based on my experiences with Toyota, I will continue to buy them.

 

[cnielse5]

very good comments everybody. Lots of things that have been said I like.
-Quality is not near as eneven as it once was between Domestics and forgein.
-I liked the debate on what defined a car as "made in USA"
-We have had good examples of both domestic and forgein vehicle that have high mileage and few concern. we have some examples of both types of cars has low mileage failures. leading me to believe that it is in how well the car is maintained.
-the process of design, engineering, and quality are very diffrent from forgein and domestics (I have experienced this and will discuss it later)
-brand loyalty is definatly personal (i.e. generational, or percieved quality and value)

Now some of the thoughts that I have after reading the posts.

I think that quality is not an issue that it once was.
Every car is the sum of its parts, care, and maintaince. neglect any of these and you car will not last as long as it should.
I have worked for both chysler and ford and I know what there approach to quality and engineering. I recently did a job interview with Nissin (make brakes for honda cars and dirtbikes) and was amazed at how tight they were on quality, and engineering tolerances. and yess they were american workers that were supervised by japanese managers.
I think that the domestics are doing so bad is because they do not have enough vehicles that people are really exited about and they have to overcome percieved poor quality. Domestic also have much bigger benifits pay out, they have the union to deal with, and have to undo their image among much of the population.

Everybody pleas put in more thought and opinions

 

[windfall]

Consumer Reports not biased?

For those who take Consumer Reports as gospel, many years ago I read a comparison in CR of the Plymouth Laser vs. the Mitsubishi Eclipse (c1992). According to them the Eclipse had better build quality, better sound insulation, a smoother, more reliable powertrain and would last longer overall. :think:

Keep in mind that the only differences between these two vehicles was badging; they were built in the same factory from the same parts by the same people at the same time. Apparently, just affixing a japanese badge improves the design of everything in the car, and nothing with a Plymouth badge can possibly be worth having. :bang:

Ever since I read that, I give no credence to anything that publication has to say.

Of course, I'm probably biased too, as I work for one the Detroit companies. (but I didn't then)

 

[Okiewan]

I'm no fan of CR either, the one "test" that stands-out in my mind was the Viper; they complained that "the ride is stiff" and there was virtually no trunk space. :coocoo:

We just bought our first new foreign car. Other than that, the only non-domestic car I've ever had was a 3 year-old Mitsu VR4 (well, a company leased BMW as well, but it wasn't "mine").

Let's see; since 1987 (Sorry, can't remember the specific model years of most of these, lol, everything before 87 was used, pretty sure this is all of them, all leases except the last two)

1) Escort GT (88 I think)
2) Grand Prix GTP
3) Ford Explorer
4) Grand Prix STE
5) BMW 325is (94)
6) Taurus SHO (96)
7) Taurus SE (98)
8) Mitsu VR4 (used, 94)
9) Taurus SHO
10) Dakota 4x4
11) F150 (2000)
12) Jeep GCL (2001)
13) Ford F250 (2002)
14) Nissan Maxima SE (05)

Of all these the only one that was a pile was the Dakota. HATED that thing.

I've always been into buying domestics to "keep the money here'. As someone else mentioned here, it's now such a global thing it doesn't seem to matter as much. This latest car is different, we actually bought this time with the intention of keeping the car till it turns to dust. We also purchased ou F250, 1 year left on that one! Just getting sick of never ending car payments.

Funny that when the 6th generation Maxima was announced and to be built in a brand new plant in the States, the Maxima nuts freaked and said that it was the end of quality. There is definatley a perception that Americans just won't build cars as well as the Japanese. The general public sees the American auto worker as a not particularly motivated, over-paid bolt turner and the Japanese worker as a tireless robot.

 

[Alaskan_h230_gurl]

Since 1987... lol, i was born in 85 :nener:
I have had a toyota 4 runner, which I blew the engine in twice.... long story but it had to do with not putting in oil.
Then i had a 2002 Volkswagen tdi, we loved it but sold it because we couldnt really take it any where that we went (mountains)
It got 55 mi. to the gallon though, and thats why we bought it. It was a well made car though. Fun to drive, and alot of safety features.
I currently drive a chevy silverado '00. I love it :) I love most american made trucks, but I dont like pretty much any american made cars. They all look so cheap! There are a few exceptions, but seriously... they look like crap.. Atleast the less expenisive ones. I really like, for cars, toyota's. Oh... I love the older passatts too. They kick ass, I want a diesel one... Im in the market for one :aj:
Hope this helps.... The vehicle of my dreams is one of two.. Ford f350 turbo diesel, or a chevy duramax diesel.... ooohh yahh.. those both kick ass!

 

[Okiewan]

Since 1987... lol, i was born in 85

Yes, there is life after the teenage years, lol.
It's got it's advantages, trust me.

Like owning enough cars to actually have an viable opinion :p

 

[Alaskan_h230_gurl]

What do you mean oki???
I do like the nissans.... those cars seem to hold up, and look nice too...

 

[Tennessee Thumper]

Funny that when the 6th generation Maxima was announced and to be built in a brand new plant in the States, the Maxima nuts freaked and said that it was the end of quality.

Its built in Smyrna TN, but its not a new plant.

Nice car. :cool: