I just finished an article on chains and sprockets for an upcoming DR and used a number of Primary Drive products. I still have their gold o-ring chain on my bike and am very satisfied with it. It appears to be at least as good as the stocker, which lasted almost 2000 miles.joeym4130 said:Shopping around for a new chain, x-ring or o-ring.
Muscled through the archives here and saw more then a few displeased with the sprockets that Primary Drive makes.
What about their chains? I was checking out how cheap their prices are for their x-ring chains. Wondering if their chains are worth going for.
Good advice until you said this. As Jay pointed out, the lube in an O-ring chain can not be replaced so once it be used up the chain will wear and there is nothing you can do to stop it. While with a properly maintained non-oring chain you can continue to lube it and have it last a long long time.RADRick said:...A properly maintained o-ring chain will outlast a standard chain, but at a higher initial cost. O-ring chain lube is also slightly more expensive and must be used to protect the rubber components. A standard chain can be lubed with almost anything in a pinch.
A properly maintained o-ring chain does not "use up" its lube. The problem happens when the lube gets contaminated or flushed out, which is a result of damaged o-rings. That being the case, the chain is no longer serviceable as is. Despite common belief, an o-ring chain does need to be lubed regularly. The sealed lube is only for the pins. The side plates and rollers still need a spritz now and then to prevent rust and reduce wear, and any chain should always be kept clean. An undamaged, properly maintained o-ring chain will reach the limits of chain stretch before the lubricant fails. A standard chain carries less of the lubricant within the pin area, it is exposed to more grit while in operation, and it operates at a higher temperature. That's the main reason they don't last as long. Less lube means more friction, which means more heat, which means the chain will stretch sooner, which means it will reach its service limit faster. The superiority of an o-ring chain and the environments it is designed for is why most manufacturers spec them on their off-road models. Weight and cost are the main reasons MX models come with standard chains. Another consideration in favor of a standard chain is whether or not you do a lot of regearing. O-ring chains can be twice as much as a standard chain and you wouldn't want to mess one up by having it be too short for your latest choice in gearing.RM_guy said:Good advice until you said this. As Jay pointed out, the lube in an O-ring chain can not be replaced so once it be used up the chain will wear and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
You still have the problem of the internal lube getting contaminated while you're riding. On a bike that gets operated in sandy or muddy conditions, this is a real concern. Once dirt gets into the lube and into the pin cavities it's like having a grinding wheel inside your chain. The o-ring chain eliminates this problem, at least as far as the pins are concerned. How much of the lube you spray on a standard chain do you think actually works its way into the pin cavities?While with a properly maintained non-oring chain you can continue to lube it and have it last a long long time.
It's not that easy, but certainly a concern if you use a pressure washer regularly. For the same reason as wheel bearings, you shouldn't aim the pressure washer directly at the chain. It doesn't need it to be cleaned. Regular water pressure should be sufficient.Another thing against o-ring chains is that it can be tricky to "properly maintain" it if you use a pressure washer. It is way too easy to get water in past the o-rings and once that happens it's a matter of time before it seizes up and becomes junk.
The average life expectancy of an o-ring chain vs standard chain is about 3 to 1, assuming proper maintenance and care including the sprockets (worn sprockets and improper adjustment account for much of the chain's wear). Like I said, use what you like, but no type of chain will be satisfactory if you don't care for it properly. If you're the type that puts your bike away dirty until the next ride, an o-ring chain is probably a better choice. :cool:It's definitely a matter of preference but what I’m spending my own money I’ll buy a non-oring chain.
The main enemies of any lube are contamination and heat. In a sealed environment like an o-ring chain, heat is the only real concern. If by break down, you are referring to a chemical change taking place, you wouldn't live long enough to see that happen. Most common petroleum-based and synthetic-based lubricants are very stable molecularly and have a long shelf-life. Any lubricant in an o-ring chain will easily outlive the chain's service life relative to stretch. :cool:RM_guy said:Used up was a bad choice of words, break down would have been better. Lube doesn't last forever.
Pretty funny considering you have a pitbull in here with the initials RR who jumps on anyone that dares give tech info that is the slightest bit inaccurate in his opinion. What exactly do you want in here? I can't win for trying.Okiewan said:(RM-guy ... BAIL MISTER!! BAIL!!! )
Well then, glad to be of service. :laugh:Okiewan said:Nah, too entertaining.
This sounds good, albeit not factual. But it is close to what many folks would think.If by break down, you are referring to a chemical change taking place, you wouldn't live long enough to see that happen. Most common petroleum-based and synthetic-based lubricants are very stable molecularly and have a long shelf-life. Any lubricant in an o-ring chain will easily outlive the chain's service life relative to stretch.
Ooh, a veiled slap at my profession. Good start. Feel better?Jaybird said:It more than likely will not match some of the information you have posted, nor will it match up to the information you provided in your recent article...but misinformation and half of the facts are fairly common in many moto articles anywho.
Chains do undergo a slight bit of elastic "stretch" when they are first put into service. It's mostly due to...Snipped the rest since the debate really had little to do with chain stretch. I only mentioned it because it is the likeliest indicator of the need for replacement of a chain that has been properly cared for.
Like I said, unless something has happened to the o-ring chain to cause the lube to seep out or become contaminated, the lube will last longer than the chain's serviceable life. Of course, this refers to bikes that are actually ridden and not stored for years. I never said the lube remains viable forever, just that a chemical breakdown of it in one's lifetime is unlikely.This sounds good, albeit not factual. But it is close to what many folks would think.
The fact is, the chain will not see an elongation as long as the lubricant inside of the sealed pin/bushing area remains intact. And the lubricant in there will not remain viable forever, as you are eluding to. Shelf life of the hydrocarbons is one thing, but in-service chains are seeing work load.
Again, aren't we talking about regularly ridden dirt bikes here? Most chains will reach their service limit in stretch long before any chemical breakdown of the lube occurs. Your making it out to be a real concern is not factual. Mechanical breakdown of the lube is genuine, but also of little import on a properly maintained, quality o-ring chain.Actually, there is a change in the chemistry of the lubricant taking place in a working chain. Oxygen is present with the lubricant, and with work, so is heat. These factors work to break the lubricant down through chemical and mechanical process'.
I hate to keep beating this horse, but little of what you said is going to occur in the usable life of an average chain. I get about 2000 miles out of an o-ring chain. That's about a year of riding. I consider myself an average rider. I use that for the basis of my comments as well as my observations during the course of my work.Even in a perfect world, the lubricant will see a time when it's ability to keep the metal surfaces from wearing is gone. Once the integrity of the lubricant is gone, or it has been "consumed" by workload, then the metal surfaces will start to wear against one another, and the resulting loss of metal at these friction points is what causes the chain to "stretch" or elongate past it's original pitch length.
And with a ring chain that has seen lots of hours, and has started to see a depletion in lubricant, there will be some metal particulate that is present after it has been worn off. There is no place for the particulate to go, and as a result it comingles in the lubricant...thickening the viscosity of the lube, and contributing to the degradation of the surfaces.
This particulate is also in the form of pure Fe, and as such will oxidize very quickly. The resulting Iron Oxide is a fantastic abrasive.
An o-ring chain can stretch more because of its design, not because of any breakdown in the lube. The pins are longer on an o-ring chain and the gap between the side plates is larger to accommodate the o-rings. This allows more lateral loading of the pins and side flexing of the chain which accelerates stretch. That's why manufacturers have gone to different types of rings: to provide more sealing contact surfaces to prevent loss or contamination of the lubricant. This side loading is the reason that a straight chain path and straight sprockets are critical to the life of an o-ring chain.Knowing these things, we can see why a ring chain will last and last, but when it does start to need adjustments, it needs them often and early, as it is on a quick road to killing your sprocket teeth from there.
Obviously, which is why it is important when buying a ring chain to go with a quality brand and avoid cheap alternatives.The only way to stop this elongation from wear it to replentish the lubricant. And obviously we can't do that easily with a ring chain.
Again, this has been my own experience and that of others. If I based everything I wrote solely upon the available marketing copy, I wouldn't last long in this business. As it is, I've been doing this for quite some time.As far as keeping a standard chain alive...well, I agree that conventional wisdom, as well as slick marketing schemes, state that a ring chain will outlive a standard chain by more than 3 times. But it is simply not true. Well, not true if you maintain the chain properly.
Well, since I never mentioned anything about manufacturer's wear ratings, I'm at a loss to rebutt this statement.Wear ratings you see from the mfg's are just as useless as tensile strength ratings. They mean absolutely nothing for comparisons, other than possibly comparing two similar sealed chains.
The ratings you see is bench testing data that is biased.
First of all, the chain materials of any given mfg will be very similar within their product lines. So you are essentially seeing the same animals when they compare their ring chain to their standard chain.Well, if you want to discuss laboratory analyses, I defer. But since we were talking about a real-world situation that involves many variables--not the least of which is most riders lack of diligent care for their chains--I have to stand by my statements.Now, if a standard chain of the exact same materials of a ring chain were placed on test machines at the same time, only the chain that was deprived of lubricant would theoretically start to wear first.
On a test bench, maybe. In the real world, not likely. There is no way to get an equal amount of lube into each pin on a standard chain simply by spraying it with an aerosol lubricant. An undamaged o-ring chain will always begin each ride with the same amount of lube in each pin cavity.If the standard chain is given equal amounts of lubricant as the ring chain...why would it not live as long as the ring chain did? It would. They would live the exact same amount of hours.
Did you type that with a straight face? Like I said and say again, the ring chain will more likely than not reach its service limit for length long before any lube problem causes damage that renders it unserviceable.The thing is, the lubricant that is in the ring chain will become useless at some point. And there is no way to replentish it.
The standard chain, on the other hand, can continue to be lubed and cared for. It can, and will, outlive the finite lifespan sealed ring chain.
Really? And how do you verify the amount of lube getting into each pin cavity on your standard chain? Is there a way to visually verify that each pin is properly lubricated? Puhleeze.The issue most folks contend with is the "proper" care thing.
If you have trouble seeing your lube getting to where it's supposed to be going, you probably are using the wrong lubricant.
What? No recommendation? Any lube can collect dirt. Some are better than others at shedding it or keeping it in suspension, but no externally-applied lube will stay on the chain through all riding situations.If your lubricant collects grime and creates a grinding paste mess, you also have a lubricant problem.
Many of the moto-specific types are the wrong products to be using in this application. No matter what the slick marketing campagin trys to get you to buy off on, their products are outdated and obsolete for dirt bike applications.
Nice of you to discount the fact that I also see the results from proper care, as well.In Rick's attempt at explaining why a standard chain wears, the conditions he describes is that of a chain that is being cared for improperly. The wrong products and methods often times will bring folks to conclusions that are not really correct.
No argument there.The fact is you can keep enough lube on the friction surfaces to protect them from wear, and for lengthy periods of time.
Mr. Rohrich, you want to field this one?And when you use a chain lube that is suited for our application, you will find that it collects no dirt or grit.
And that's the bottom line, regardless of the type of chain. :cool:And with a regular cleaning/lube/adjustment schedule, you can keep your chain in top notch condition.
Really? LOL, you wrote a book after that statement. :pI hate to keep beating this horse
LOL, I should have never started. I was never good at debate and it hard to argue with someone that can't admit any wrong. I'll let the facts (and the experts--Jay, thanks) speak for themselves.Okiewan said:(RM-guy ... BAIL MISTER!! BAIL!!! )
Jaybird said:Rick,
Surely you don't think Rich is going to waste.... wait...I'll hold that thought for awhile...
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