Reflex shock upgrade

rickshaw · May 12, 2003

Well, the time has come to replace those worn out springs that hold up the bike from the rear tire!

I've been toying with this upgrade on my Honda Reflex for a coupla years. I use the bike for pretend trials riding to learn balance and clutch control for woods riding on another bike.

Based on this, any advice on Works versus Falcon is appreciated. I lean towards the Falcons based on price, but am not shy about spending more money for good equipment.

Thanks to all for your responses and enjoy your posts on this forum.

rickshaw

rickshaw · May 13, 2003

does anybody have any advice????

rickshaw

Patman · May 13, 2003

I don't think there are a large number of folks with the Reflex, let alone upgraded. I'll prod TexKDX to see if he's got any insight on this as I think he has added one to his acreage of bikes (he's a bike rancher ya' know ;) )

bbbom · May 13, 2003

Sorry Rickshaw, we have a Reflex but haven't tried any mods on it yet.

rickshaw · May 13, 2003

Based on an overwhelming response... :scream:

Just kidding, I decided to go the Falcon route based on cost and how I use my Reflex.

And the other reason is Bob at B&J Racing who has experience with vintage trials bikes and suspension.

I'll submit my results when I get the shocks next week.

rickshaw

bbbom · May 14, 2003

I'm interested in hearing about the results.

TexKDX · May 22, 2003

The Boges often used on the vintage trials bikes (I have them on my ty175) are a good shock for the Reflex. Get the right length and spring rate and you should be good to go for about $170. Bob Ginder's shop sells them - www.amsracing.com I believe.

Leo.

TVRider · May 22, 2003

Oh No! Bob sucked another newbie in with his claim to experience :laugh: Just kidding. He not only knows vintage bike's, he can ride them but you should see his son Dustin ride that TL125 (punched out to 148). The boy is seriously good. He came to Cape Girardeau (home for me) last weekend and rode are local event with Bob. They taught a Trials school on Saturday. Good stuff (figure 8's, figure 8', figure 8's... till you puke).

Anyway, about the shocks. I bought a set of Falcons for my TY250 and really like them. Ask Bob about fork springs to match. Good luck with your reflex :thumb:

Tom

rickshaw · Jun 9, 2003

Took a few weeks to get the shocks, but they're on and working fine.

Challenged a number of large bolders and fallen tree's this weekend. They work very well on the short hits and on the trail. But of course by improving the rear suspension, the front will need immediate attention.

Highly recommend the Falcons to any twin shockers. Good service from Bob Ginder - B&J Racing - 615.789.5956.

Next stop - new front springs, wider footpegs, and a 50 - 52 tooth rear sprocket.

Thanks to all for your feedback.

rickshaw

TexKDX · Jun 9, 2003

got my places mixed up (B&J vs AM) but Bob is the man...

Glad you go the Reflex going. Also I'd be careful getting too much spring rate on the bike - otherwise it won't act like a trials bike anymore. The front forks are a "real" trials fork and provide little dampening so you can use the bike as a trials bike. Same for the rear - not too stiff a spring rate.

Crank the spring rates up and you turn it into a trail bike, which is an alternative, but just understand that is what you are doing to the bike.

Do you know how to ride trials?

rickshaw · Jun 9, 2003

TexKDX, I'm with you on the settings. My bike odometer shows 4K miles and the rear shocks were worn out. The new rear shocks are not stiff and are setup for trials. And I want to keep it a trialer.

Me, know how to ride trials? Well I have alot of practice over the years on a TL 250, RL 250, and now the Reflex. Never competed but understand clutch control, figure 8's, and could manuver through a course.

I use the Reflex for driveway practice, let the wife learn how to ride, and an occasional jaunt out in the woods.

rickshaw

TexKDX · Jun 9, 2003

Ah... 4k miles... may be time for replacement fork springs. Hard to say.

I ask about the trials experience as it is very common for folks to over-suspend a vintage bike and make it unridable as a trials bike. If you are working with the likes of Bob Ginder on the shocks and go with a stock or slightly stiffer fork spring then the bike should be OK, assuming you did not overspring the rear.

I know this stuff from experience, not making it up. My TY175 came with way too stiff of rear springs on a replacement shock. The bike was virtually unridable until I put the Betors on it. Even then I got them with two different sets of springs and had to play around with the spring preload on the lighter set to get the bike working right. Sure it will bottom if you ride it like a trail bike, but if you ride it like a trials bike (even trail riding it I might add) the thing handles just fine. I weigh 165 lbs and can bottom the forks or shocks just by bouncing on the suspension, but I can also use the soft suspension as it was intended as a trials bike.

We also had a local rider on a Montesa 349 that got replacement shocks from a vintage MX supplier. He gave them the length and his weight, and he ended up with MX-stiff springs. The bike was very ill handling and pitched him over the front all the time until he replaced them with trials shocks with lighter springs.

My '98 Beta Alp, being a factory trials-based trail bike, has trials suspension with more dampening and stiffer springs for trail work. It really effects the way the bike works as a trials bike.

I took my Reflex out (1400 mi BTW) and did a pretty agressive trail ride with it with guys on MX bikes. Yup, it has its limitations, no questions asked. BUT, if ridden like what it is, the bike does work, soft suspension and all.

Later!

MCMAN56 · Jun 10, 2003

Can you give some details on how the shocks are better than stock? I have a Reflex and a '97 Gas Gas trials bike to compare it to. The Reflex forks don't feel too bad but the rear of the bike feels very stiff. Can different shocks make a big difference? I'm wondering if the stiff feel is just due to the short swingarm and lack of a progressive linkage system. On the other hand, there is a local rider that rides trials on a Reflex and beats lots of people on modern bikes. He has the stock shocks and really likes them.

TexKDX · Jun 10, 2003

McMan, sounds like a mechanical issue of some sort. A stock reflex will not have a "stiff" rear end unless it is binding up or someone changed out the springs and/or shocks. Are you sure yours are stockers?

rickshaw · Jun 10, 2003

Gotta agree with TexKDX. My originals were ok, but anything but stiff. The new Falcon's are setup where you can almost bottom out with a good push, but remain firm on a quick hit.

I'm surprised by the McMan comment on the guy riding stockers....maybe I'm just a brute with no technique :confused:

Ordered the front springs yesterday and weld on footpeg extensions.

I think this is it for investment in this ol' dog.

rickshaw

TexKDX · Jun 10, 2003

How about sending the bullet off to Poweroll LOL!!!

There was a reflex that sent thru ebay about a year ago the guy set up for the CA vintage series. Under any rules but AHRMA, the Reflex qualifies as vintage - twin shock, air cooled, drum brake. Anyway, he stripped it all down, laced up Excel alu rims, worked the motor over, different exhaust, platic tank, etc. In his ad he said he did real well on it in the series.

I rode a tricked out TL125 a guy in Austin won the Texas vintage series on. Had the 150 kit, suspension mods, etc. It worked VERY WELL for the Amateur line. Totally tractable power, could not stall it.

The footpeg mods are a must do - did you order the Moose weld on kit or something else?

rickshaw · Jun 10, 2003

I bought em blind from Bob Ginder. Not sure who made them.

Powroll, thought about it and came to the conclusion that it would be lipstick on a pig. Not to be disrespectful but after all it is a Reflex :scream:

But I did do a double take on Ebay with a "Performance TLR 200" engine with a 12:1 piston ( which I have in mine ) in a 200X tope end and TLR bottom...

Nah

rickshaw

MCMAN56 · Jun 10, 2003

I have the stock shocks. However, stiff my be my interpretation of harsh. I have learned that harsh can be too stiff or too soft. I'll try hopping on the pegs and see how much it compresses. Yours goes almost all of the way down? (I'm 155 lbs.) What is your preload adjustment on the spring?

My interpretation of stiff may also come from the comparison the a modern trials bike. The 2002s make my '97 feel slow and stiff (and heavy).

MCMAN56 · Jun 12, 2003

I tried bouncing on the pegs of the Reflex the other day and the rear does almost fully compress. I guess I should try some more preload. The harshness I feel must be bottoming. But I'm still curious, how are the new shocks "better"?

Suspension is hard to "interpret". I had a '92 KDX200 and thought the rear was too stiff. But...based on a call to Fredette, changed to stiffer fork springs. That was the right move and the bike was significantly improved.

TexKDX · Jun 12, 2003

On the KDX, what you were most likely experiencing was the bike riding down into mid-stroke (stiffer damping) than at the top of the stroke (less harsh damping). This is common - too little spring makes the bike harsh on small stuff as the bike is riding down mid-stroke.

On the Reflex, I was riding it around some yesterday. If you are too heavy for a stock KDX rear shock, then the same will be true on the Reflex only magnified by its short travel and less sophisticated suspension. The "harshness" you describe is most likely from a heavy person riding it like a dirt bike. If you run into stuff with the rear wheel and do not do an unload, then it will bottom sharply. Same holds true with me at 165 pounds. See comments above about riding it like a trials bike versus a trail bike. Also my comments on my TY175.

The modern trials bike is SO FORGIVING compared to the old stuff. Lots of bottoming protection, progressive springs and dampening, great brakes, will turn without being leaned, etc. It was not until I took up Vintage trials that my modern trials riding took a major leap forward.

Good luck getting the bikes sorted out! My reflex has a plate on it, is finally where I am, and is now taking on "Scooter duty" here in Colo Springs!

rickshaw · Jun 12, 2003

MCMAN56, sorry for the delayed reply to your question on spring rates. I simply gave my weight ( not the fit and trim TexKDX !) to Bob Ginder and he built the shocks.

I'll call him today and find out.

The new shocks are better because the don't bottom on the initial impact while hitting a tree or rock.

Details to follow.

rickshaw

MCMAN56 · Jul 1, 2003

I jacked the rear spring preload up to max and it feels much better. Now it feels like the front should ride a little higher and resist bottoming a little better. How did those front springs work out?

If you want to change gearing a 9 tooth front sprocket is available. It is probably pretty hard on the chain, but provides low gearing with the stock rear sprocket.

TexKDX · Jul 1, 2003

McMan56, see my comments above about balancing the bike front-back and having the suspension working as a trials bike or a trail bike. Not the same setup, and when you over-spring the back then the front do't workie right no more.

I rode a modern bike the other day set up for a 6'4" 240 pound guy. Heavy springs, more pressure in the tires. My 165 pound frame had trouble keeping the tires in contact with the terrain while trials riding.

Made a great trail bike for me though.

rickshaw · Jul 2, 2003

MCMAN56, sorry for the delayed response. I called B&J asking about the spring rates and he did not document what he used...."built so many shocks that day..." :think:

I am still waiting for the front springs and weld on footpegs to arrive. They had a problem with a their vendor.

Very happy with the rear shocks and so far they really have not caused any problems with the front forks, ie... being oversprung. My Reflex has over 4K miles on it so...I figured they needed to be replaced.

rickshaw

MCMAN56 · Jul 2, 2003

The bike does feel fairly well ballanced front to back. However, I rode the Rubicon trail last week and there are lots of steep down hill steps. The forks tended to bottom when the front wheel hit the bottom. Maybe a higher oil level would do the trick. There does seem to be a lot of front end sag too. I'm only 155 lbs.

Reflex shock upgrade

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