Ride stealth- if the AMA was really serious

[oldguy]

Why couldn't the AMA take a stand to encourage amateur MX racers to fall into the stealthier mode by allowing the Q after market silencers on the stock class bikes at races such as Lorrettas. Right now the rules on stock class are so tight that you have to run the factory OEM pipes. In order to encourage riders to go stealth (and promote manufacturers to get serious about building them) and try to prevent future noise complaints from closing tracks allow the use of the quieter after market pipes.
This would be good for the sport as it would get some guys to run the pipes and force manufacturers to develope more power delivery in them.
To me it sounds :nod: like a win/win situation

 

[Okiewan]

The AMA ... They have to balance on a very thin tightrope. Get the word out, but don't take the chance of pissing off any of the mfg's or aftermarket mfg's. Self-Interest DOES come in to play, as politically incorrect as that statement is.

Example you ask?

The AMA sound tests. They know DAMN GOOD AND WELL that the Big 4 (word is NOT KTM) program their ignition maps to pass the tests... "X" RPMS, no load = retarded timing = less noise. Why not test the noise track-side? Because that's under load and the bikes (all of them) are hitting 105-107+ dB's. The whole "we limit dB to 102 , 99, 96..." is BS.

Parents worried about ear plugs at AMA pro races is bogus, it doesn't need to be that way. Cut them all back to TRUE 92 dB and the racing will be JUST AS GOOD.

If the AMA REALLY wanted to get it done?
1) New rule. 2007: 90 dB.
2) AMA Sanctioned / Insured events? 90dB. (prior year bikes are grand- fathered in at 99 dB.)

They'll NEVER do it.

 

[SpDyKen]

AMA pro races is bogus, it doesn't need to be that way. Cut them all back to TRUE 92 dB and the racing will be JUST AS GOOD.

(to music) Amen, amen, aiiiimen. amen, amen !!!!!! :cool: :cool:

I would say the same thing for 91, 90, or 89 dB. As we all have seen, put great racers on 50 cc bikes and you'll still have great racing!

 

[dirtbikr99]

What about nascar races? I went to the daytona 500 and that was signifigantly louder than any MX race iv ever been too!
I do feel that more quiet bikes r better for the sports as a whole because we dont want to get shut down because of it. But in another aspect a race track is going to be loud and the tracks location and the event times needs to be in acordance to this.
But riding in personaly property aswell as on legal trails and recriational riding the bikes should be regulated.

 

[Okiewan]

NASCAR? I guess people can put up with the noise for a week when it brings $$ millions into the local economy ...

Doesn't matter what any other sport does though, WE are the ones losing places to ride. Including our own property.

 

[BSWIFT]

Doesn't matter what any other sport does though, WE are the ones losing places to ride. Including our own property.

And that is a Fact!

 

[Tony Eeds]

Doesn't matter what any other sport does though, WE are the ones losing places to ride. Including our own property.

ditto!

 

[jsned]

I was riding with my two buddies on KTM300XC, stock, this weekend, and was amazed at how quiet they are.

Does the "Q" silencers quiet a 2 stroke down like the stock KTM silencer? If it does I will by one today. But what I have heard they DONT quiet a stock motocross bike down that much. I am thinking about trying to get a stock KTM 2 stroke silencer and modifying it to fit my Yamaha.

4 years ago I had a stock CR250 (01). Went to the Hatfield and Mcoy trails for a week to trailride, and didnt know if they enforced the sparkarrestor rule or not. So to not get in trouble, I took a stock KDX silencer (which Fredette give me) and made a step sleeve to connect to the exhaust pipe, and bent and modified the mount tabs to line up with the stock mounts. It lined up perfect, and looked like it was suppose to be there. I am telling you there was hardly any power loss, and since I, like most people wether they want to beleive it or not, dont use all the power the new bikes have anyway. It actually smoothed the bike out.

Last weekend at Buffalo Range, I was sitting down at the trailer taking a break, and started listening to the noise. For anyone who dont know Buffalo Range there is a mx track down in this old pit with walls about 50 foot high all the way around it. You would think this would stop the noise. Even with this it was unreal how loud the 4 strokes where going around the track. You could here the 2 strokes but only when they where on the side by the parking lot. There where more 4 strokes than 2 strokes, and it was really loud.

I am not ranting about 4 strokes vs 2 strokes but I am telling you we are fighting a losing battle if we try to do it ourselves. If the AMA, private park owners, and track owners dont enforce something it aint going to change. I feel this way because I have brung up the loud pipe issue with freinds and people at these places i ride, and most of the time I am told to stop bitching and leave them alone. I am getting as frustrated as anyone.

 

[robwbright]

NASCAR? I guess people can put up with the noise for a week when it brings $$ millions into the local economy ...

Exactly - or in the case of my local track, even $18,000.00 to the local county commission is sufficient to drown out the complaints of local residents.

 

[2-Strokes 4-ever]

jsned,
I have a Q on my RM250. At idle and maybe first 1/3 throttle the noise output seems not far from stock........but for some reason (maybe the SA?) it quiets down a bunch when working in the upper RPM range.

 

[kiboy]

I am not ranting about 4 strokes vs 2 strokes but I am telling you we are fighting a losing battle if we try to do it ourselves. If the AMA, private park owners, and track owners dont enforce something it aint going to change. I feel this way because I have brung up the loud pipe issue with freinds and people at these places i ride, and most of the time I am told to stop bitching and leave them alone. I am getting as frustrated as anyone.

As a track owner it would be difficult for me to enforce this alone and loose the revenue. Most tracks are in the same situation I'm sure, no money, close the gates. My opinion is the need for AMA support and the trickle down effect it would cause.

 

[Okiewan]

Okay... there are two ways to get it done.

1) Just let the AMA deal with it and hope something happens.
2) Push from both ends... the AMA does their thing in their bloated, reactionary way and we assist from the bottom up, via education... in a PROACTIVE way.

Track owners. Yup, see the problem.
How many tracks are there in the area/state? Why can't you all get together and agree on a sound limit? Start it slow so not to run your riders off, but start! How many riders out there have NO IDEA that sound is an issue? Will riders drive another hour or two so they can ride where the track doesn't care about sound?

I don't think anyone believes there is a light-switch solution. It's going to take time but we've got to start some where. Just letting everyone know there IS a problem is an important step.

The equipment needed for testing will set you back less than $100. If track owners set up some voluntary sound tests, I'd suggest many would want to know and be surprised how loud they are. If we can get the donations up at www.RideStealth.Com, we intend to provide banners for tracks / riding areas, stickers and other promotional/educational stuff ... Just flying the banners will make a difference.

The idea at RideStealth is NOT to ram the problem down anyone's throat. It's about making the information available, not bashing pipe mfg's for making loud pipes for example; rather promoting their "quiet" options.

Folks might find it strange that the level of participation and comments (about RideStealth) I'm getting from the pipe companies are EXTREMELY positive. They all realize this is a MAJOR and still growing problem and most will tell you they are working hard to reduce NOISE, weight as well as maximizing performance. Why would these guys send pipes to a site called Loud Sucks for testing? Why would Donnie Emler of FMF request our Loud Sucks stickers to give out? Because the more educated their customers become, the longer they'll have a market to sell to.

FYI: So far... FMF, Dubach, Leo Vince and ProMoto Billet (end caps/inserts) have jumped on board with RideStealth.

 

[HajiWasAPunk]

Our Friday night class was recently cancelled due to noise problems. I can tell you that I would have done anything necessary to my bike and my son's to keep that from happening. But they never asked for a noise check, they just got some complaints and cancelled riding at the track after 5 on all but one practice night and Saturday night racing.

 

[Okiewan]

While I'm on the soap box :)

How many of us, you know, the average Joe riding/racing public can guarantee faster lap times with pipe "x" over stock? Or that a Q pipe / stock pipe is slower? We've been bombarded for years with mag tests, with pro's and dyno's. Many of us believe if the dyno shows +1 peak HP, it'll make us faster. 1-2 HP? I'm a perfect example. I am WAY faster on my 250F than I was on my 450F. How many HP did I give up? I'm a perfect example of Joe Average.

A HUGE pipe test was just published in Dirt Rider Mag. If you look at the dyno charts for the 250F ... WHY would you spend big bucks on an aftermarket pipe that screams at 100 dB? The performance difference between stock and aftermarket is so small, NONE OF US will feel the difference. Most of us hear more noise and assume the performance increase. The tests also showed several Quiet pipes that also performed within the same levels. I'll admit however that there are pipes that MOVE the power, most tho make power the way Pro's like it, which in the vast majority of cases is NOT good for the average rider. For the same or less $, there are other performance mods that will actually return MORE increases and NOT increase noise (porting, big bore, suspension, etc). Fact is, if everyone would just learn how to jet they'd be faster than bolting on a pipe.

And about those dyno charts and how useful they are? The editor of that magazine readily admits that they mean very little.

A quote from RideStealth:

"I'll reiterate the most important part about the dyno implication: You do not ride a dyno, nor do you ride your bike in conditions anything like what a dyno tests at."..
Jimmy Lewis, Dirt Rider Magazine.

 

[HajiWasAPunk]

While I'm on the soap box :)

How many of us, you know, the average Joe riding/racing public can guarantee faster lap times with pipe "x" over stock? Or that a Q pipe / stock pipe is slower? How many HP did I give up?

Along those same lines, check out the lap times at the nationals. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, they're basically the same for the guys riding the 125 class as the 250 class. If this hp doesn't matter for the best riders in the world, there's no way it does for the other 99.9999% of people.

 

[Chili]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, they're basically the same for the guys riding the 125 class as the 250 class. If this hp doesn't matter for the best riders in the world, there's no way it does for the other 99.9999% of people.

Not to get away from the point that Joe Average doesn't need the extra power, however keep in mind when comparing those lap times that the 250 class guys get the track after the 125 guys have beat the crap out of it for 30 mins +2.

 

[rickyd]

Off topic, but i read where Davi Milsaps place is shut down due too noise..

 

[FruDaddy]

As a track owner it would be difficult for me to enforce this alone and loose the revenue. Most tracks are in the same situation I'm sure, no money, close the gates. My opinion is the need for AMA support and the trickle down effect it would cause.

Understanding your plight, would you be willing to give a price break to riders whose machines were tested and verified below a set dB limit?

 

[BSWIFT]

Understanding your plight, would you be willing to give a price break to riders whose machines were tested and verified below a set dB limit?

Nice marketing idea. It might possibly get some of your customers to comply and help their wallets. There are some possibilities available for owners that explore a new approach and I will hellp promote those possibilities anyway that I can.

 

[Rubey]

As a track owner it would be difficult for me to enforce this alone and loose the revenue. Most tracks are in the same situation I'm sure, no money, close the gates. My opinion is the need for AMA support and the trickle down effect it would cause.

On one hand I understand your concern. On the other hand if your track gets shut down or you’re forced to more restricted hours that will cut into your revenue as well. It’s only a matter of when, not if.

If we all wait until the “other guy” does something first, we might as well shut down all the tracks begin selling our bikes right now. Personally I would not operate a track without strict sound limits.

You’ve had a good suggestion to offer a price break for quiet bikes. If you don’t want to enforce a sound limit all at once, let me suggest progressively shorter practice times for loud bikes and longer practice times for quiet bikes. Eventually (over a month or two) phase out all loud bike activities. That would give people a chance to become educated and to comply without being shut out immediately. To the people that don’t comply you need to understand… they are damaging your business. Virtually no one, except for low-IQ Bubbas, likes loud bikes. You may be surprised to see your business actually increase.

 

[2fittyjeff]

What about nascar races? I went to the daytona 500 and that was signifigantly louder than any MX race iv ever been too!
I do feel that more quiet bikes r better for the sports as a whole because we dont want to get shut down because of it. But in another aspect a race track is going to be loud and the tracks location and the event times needs to be in acordance to this.
But riding in personaly property aswell as on legal trails and recriational riding the bikes should be regulated.

How many Nascar races per year in your state? thats not a valid comparison.

 

[FruDaddy]

I used to work and live a couple miles from Dixie Speedway in Woodstock, GA. NASCAR drivers start somewhere, just like MXers, and you can hear it almost every Saturday night. People just don't seem to care about their noise. We can complain about them but it won't do us any good.

 

[Wolf]

I have sent a link to this thread to my connection at the AMA....

 

[Wolf]

I'm engaged in an e-mail thread with Douglas Neubauer (VP-AMA sports). not sure if I shoud waste the band width here....well, ok:
____________________________________________________________________

Douglas,
Thank you for your time and response. I know you have plenty on your plate, and can certainly appreciate that.

A quick comment on the testing procedures:

OEM's have more or less openly acknowledged (or leaked the info), that in order to pass sound tests, they simply change the ignition curve.
If that is truly the case, wouldn't it be up to you as the governing body to "refine" the sound testing procedure? Are steps being taken in this matter?

If the AMA truly has the sport at heart (and I strongly believe you do), why couldn't you enforce the rules more strictly? One could argue that in order to save our sport, passion, hobby, the riders (weekend warriors like myself) are starting to show more initiative to enforce sound policies than our governing body.
Many of us have young kids, and we would like to be able to pass on this great passion of motorcycling to them, hopefully we'll have some places left to ride...

There are race promoters out there that would enforce sound limits strictly, but fear of losing rider count hinders the process. These promoters can't and aren't willing to lose revenue, and they certainly would, as some "knucklehead" riders will simply find a track that doesn't enforce the rules. The AMA has to set the standard, and set the standard high, enforce the rules strictly and make AMA sanctioned events comply with appropriate sound restrictions....all AMA events!!!

I do not contend that sound is the only issue endangering our sport, not at all, but it is the easiest and most obvious target.
We all have the same goal and agenda, and we all share the same passion. Together we can make a difference, and hopefully re-educate the riding public...

Loud Sucks - Ride Stealth

Best Regards,

Wolfgang



Wolfgang Neuwirth
Publisher, RV Trade Digest







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Douglas Neubauer [mailto:dneubauer@ama-cycle.org]
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:39 AM
To: Terry Cook; Wolfgang Neuwirth
Subject: RE: Ride Stealth


Wolfgang,

I am not sure of the question on the rules, but it is correct that in the stock class you must run the stock pipe. In addition however you must make sure that your bike meets the sound requirements of 99db or 96 for open course events. As we have been told by the OEM”s and as we have tested for ourselves as the bikes come from the OEM they will meet this rule with the stock pipe. Of course there are dealers who try and make changes to the bike to make them more appealing which could include an aftermarket pipe this is not recommended by the OEM.



If you would like to see a rule change and allow the Q pipe on stock bikes I would suggest that you contact a local AMA Congress Representative and ask them to submit a rule change for this class. AMA Congress Delegates can be found at: http://home.ama-cycle.org/amaccess/congress/index.asp



Sound is an issue and we are working harder at enforcing the rules we have before we step down to lower sound ratings. In addition we are working with the aftermarket groups to try and come up with a program for the future as AMA Pro Racing is changing their rules to meet ours in 2007.





Thanks,

Douglas Neubauer, Vice President

AMA Sports

American Motorcyclist Association

13515 Yarmouth Dr.

Pickerington, OH 43147

1(800) AMA-JOIN

1(614) 856-1900 ext. 1335

rights. riding. racing.



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-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Cook
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 2:39 PM
To: 'Wolfgang Neuwirth'
Subject: RE: Ride Stealth



I will once again send this to our web guys and others in our department for them to review. Our link policy is clearly spelled out on our website should you want to link to us.



In the meantime you should be able to expect something from Douglas on the rules soon.



Terry Lee Cook

Grassroots Manager

American Motorcyclist Association

Rights, Riding, Racing

13515 Yarmouth Drive

Pickerington, OH 43147

614-856-1900 ext. 1288

 

[BSWIFT]

Very articulate. The reply was a bit lack luster in enthusiasm but at least it is a start.