Spring Rate Preload and valving!

What delivers the best action in these condtions

  • MX: Light valving hvy springs

    Votes: 60 14.9%
  • MX: Heavy Valving light springs

    Votes: 29 7.2%
  • MX: Theroetical ideal spring, midrange valving

    Votes: 113 28.0%
  • HS: Light valving hvy springs

    Votes: 46 11.4%
  • HS: Heavy Valving light springs

    Votes: 24 5.9%
  • HS: MX springs, lighter valving.

    Votes: 35 8.7%
  • Enduro: Light valving light springs.

    Votes: 27 6.7%
  • Enduro: Midrange valving light springs.

    Votes: 70 17.3%

  • Total voters
    404

Jeremy Wilkey

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#1
Hey all these polls seem to be really cool. I want to conduct another poll and get a veiw for what most people feel is the best way to attain ideal function based on exsperience.

Ok.. Since you can't vote twice, vote in the category that best suits your riding and the results should reveal a pattern. Please state your reasons. As always I will post my veiws as it it unfolds..


Regards,
Jer
 
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#2
I picked light springs heavy valving for MX because from what I understand, the KX I ride has light valving and I have to overspring it to get any sort of bottoming resistance. The problem I get from the heavy springs is harshness and headshake. From my limited knowledge and what I can try to deduct from the above info, the light springs would keep the suspenders plush with the heavy valving providing plenty of bottoming resistance and making the suspension controlled on sharp bumps.
Am I even remotely correct?:( :think

Oh ya, if it matters I ride on VERY rough tracks(hardpack with rocks) with big jumps and some pretty tight supercross style rythm sections.
 
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#3
I picked ideal spring/midrange valving because it seems like that would be the most versatile setup. Light springs/heavy valving is how my 520SX came set up, and I can't get an optimum MX setup out of it. Heavy springs/ light valving, it seems like you wouldn't be able to get proper preload for your weight. Also, I'm not sure here, but wouldn't that cause it to blow through the stroke easily. Oh well, I'm interested in seeing what the "correct" answer is.
 
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#4
I don't think their is a correct answer. I do have trouble with preload and sag, but I am super-comfortable with ALOT of sag. Kindof Charmichael-esque in a way? But, heavy springs with light valving is definetly not the way to go as evidenced by the fact that my bike bottoms on some jump takeoffs. Granted they are steep, but it still does not work.
 
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#5
I realize that riding style, and rider preference will dictate the setup, and that there won't be a correct answer - that's why I put it in quotes. What I meant by that is that I'm interested in what the experts believe is correct. I'm sure Mx-Tech, Race Tech, Pro-Action, Factory Connection, etc. tuners will have a little different philosophy on this, and I'm curious as to why. Thanks Jeremy, I really like these discussions, because as a suspension rookie, I learn a lot about suspension tuning.
 
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#6
Elephino!!! That's why I look to people like YOU to tell ME how to set up my suspension for the kind of riding I'll be doing. Planning on sending ya my forks and shock this winter for some reworking. Hope ya can get me dialed in!!
 

Jeremy Wilkey

Owner, MX-Tech
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#7
I think I gave away too much... My purpose in doing this is A.) get more people involved and two hopefully generate good strings... I think the important thing to consider is that obvously I have my opion but really as long as your thought process is good we like as forum readers like hearing other ideas.. Since i've had to travel so much this year I have not been around as much, so I've tried to evolve the way I moderate, do more with generaating good ideas more than answering every question... You guys have done a great job at that.. :)

Anyway what do you all think might be some intresting alternatives to the options listed above?
 
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KiwiBird

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#8
HS - light valving, heavy springs, fairly light preload. I like to spring for my weight with maybe 5mm preload and then adjust valving to suit.
 
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#9
I voted for the ideal spring and the mid-range valving. I have only six months experience with motorcycles, but here's my opinion anyway.

From what I understand, from this forum, is that the valving is speed sesitive and the spring is position sensitive. The spring it seems would keep the suspension higher or lower in the stroke than the valving would. By using a soft spring it would allow the suspension to ride lower in the stoke reducing the amount of travel. A heavy spring would ride higher thus increasing travel. With less travel (soft spring) the valving would have to be stiffer to reduce bottoming, with more travel (heavy spring) the valving could be tamer, for the same level rider.

I would think, for a novice, the soft spring would be good because they would not be using all the travel anyway. Even the valving could be softened. But for a seasoned rider the soft spring would be very harsh because they would use the travel causing the valving to be harsh to keep from bottoming.

01 YZ125
 

MACE

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#10
Well poop....

If the enduro choices both have light springs, there's not much opportunity to argue:D . My experience with heavy (commonly considered "optimal") springs is that they are too jarring for rootnrocksnruts. Physically painfull after a day or two in the saddle. With "excessive" amounts of preload or low oil levels I can get the same static wheel rate as the heavier springs but the reaction at the bars is less when I roll over that two inch rock.

Light damping works in some conditions like rocks but is limited in it's versatility. There will eventually be a section of nasty whoops and that light valving ain't going to cut the cheese :p in the whoops. Wanna know the damping curve I want? I'll design an inertial valve that reduces damping to near zero under high acceleration. What this would do is let the wheel move freely when it gets a sudden jolt and then smoothly apply damping as the acceleration spike subsides - arresting further wheel motion but avoiding the spike. All this needs to be is a spring and a mass driving a spool valve or perhaps a needle. Put that in your pipe and take a good drag......

It's interesting to see how many hits these polls get compared to the number of posts. Come on guys. Tell us what you think and more importantly, WHY you think what you do.
 
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#11
Is someone willing to comment on my bass akwards theroy of why light springs and heavy valving would work best for me? I am dying to know if I am correct, remotely?
 

marcusgunby

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#12
Arron i adree with you because works KTMs have that arrangement and they are the best suspension IMO.I like the softish spring heavy damping.Light damping even with stiff spring will not work in mx as the damping contols the spring-you can have a silly stiff spring but without sufficient damping it wont be any stiffer than a light one when landing off jumps etc.
 
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#13
OK, I am not far off in my reasoning! I was always told the .41's I am using with a 4.8 is WAY to stiff for me yet I bottom consistently over most jumps and takeoffs!:eek: Guess when I get the new bike I will revalve. The only problem I can think of with this set up is a "dead" feelig in the top part of the stroke and packing problems as the spring will not have much stoored energy.
 

John Curea

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#14
Man, I've been away too long.........

This is a really good thread.......

For woods riding, I would go with light springs and light valving. I recently raced a 4 hour harescramble, I tell you, during the last part of the race, my suspension couldnt have possibly been plush enough. I went into a survival mode, things got a little blury and I picked the wrong tree to go around, major center punch (somebody has to keep the handlebar manufacturers in business)......

Anyways, in a woods enviroment, I think for most riders, need a softer spring and valving than MX. (although I have a friend who likes a full moto set up in the woods, I dont think he has any pain receptors in his brain).
A quick run in the woods is one thing, but when you are in the saddle for a couple hours at one time, an MX set up will beat you up. 90% of trail is usually rocks and roots, a whoop out section or jump section are usually far and few in between. I would rather valve and spring softer for 90% of the ride and deal with moto stuff at a slower pace, I beleive your lap times will be faster.

On the flip side, I believe motocross needs a heavier spring and heavier valving. Again, most motocross races last about 15 minutes at the most (excluding national events) we can valve and spring heavy for the extreme sections of whoops and jumps. An average rider can hang on pretty strong for 15 minutes, and we can valve and spring for max speed through the whoops and also handle the jumps (also handle the mis-timed jumps safely).

Mace, lets kick that inertial valve idea of yours around some more......:cool:

Take Care, John
 
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#15
HS: MX springs, lighter valving.

This is because
I am a light guy on an MX bike, but like to be versitile so that I do not have to ajust much to adapt to woods riding or big jumps.

I also fine this set up with MX springs and lighter valving to be good because the stiffer springs help keep the ride height up and therfore making the suspension responsive to the small stuff but also allowing big stuff with out harsh bottoming.

My opinion on bottoming is that its normal, if you do not bottom out you are not useing 100% of your suspension and that means you are wasting it.
 
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