sprockets and chains?

[limitless]

Who makes the best sprockets? I race H/S and they could use a change as they're getting quite worn (the bike is 6yrs old with stock sprockets). What brand/model do ya'll recommend?

Whats the best type of chain for H/S type riding? X ring/O ring? I know a guy who makes chains, so I can get the best chains for like 20$ I just need to tell him what I need.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[john stu]

the best combo i have run so far is afam sprokets and a did x-ring they lasted and lasted but if you want ultimate durability try a steel (or stainless)rear sproket if weight is not an issue

 

[kelsorat]

Try Sprocket Specialists also. I have run thier sprockets and chains on all my bikes with no complaints. They also make the best chain lube bar none.

 

[john stu]

i only tryed sproket specialists once and i guess i had bad luck because they wore out faster than any other sprokets i ever tried and that was with the same did x-ring chain.

 

[TrackMaster]

Steel Sunstars with a DID (ert i think?) its the non oring chain used by most of the factory riders.... i dont see a lot of water or mud on my 125 though, so i would go with an o/x-ring did. i have sunstar front and an o'neil rear sprocket on my 250 with a did o-ring -> absolutely no wear after 2 years...

 

[kelsorat]

Well that aint good. I'm willing to try any combo, but my KTM540dxc used to eat sprockets for lunch and the Timoly from SS held out the best. I'll still stand behind the chain lube.

 

[Studboy]

I am going to have to disagree with most of these comments.
I would go with a DID ERT chain (Non-O-Ring) With a QUALITY Steel Front, Aluminum Rear Sprocket. I would then keep them very clean and lube with a dry type lube such as: Honda HP or www.mx1000.com Chain lube. Going with a steel rear sprocket to try and hide wear on the chain is a BAD idea.

Where's Jaybird when I need him?!?!?! :debil:

 

[Jaybird]

John Stu,
You say that your Sprocket Specialists sprockets wore out faster than any sprocket you tried, and then you say it was with the same x-ring chain.
Well, there is your problem. Try changing your chain when you change sprockets becasue it wasn't the poor integrity of your sprockets that was the problem, it was the fact that you ran a trashed chain on them.

I agree with Studboy 100%. Folks crying about how their sprockets wear and then claim how fantastic a hard sprocket is.
The simple fact is that a sprocket (any sprocket) will not wear out unless undue stress is placed on it. I see the big CC guys perk up when I say that, but don't even think your bikes brute strength is trashing your sprockets...it aint so.
The most common undue stress is elongation of chain pitch. It's the chain being worn past the recommended length that is causing most peoples problem. The most common problem for accelerating this wear is bad adjustment. The second is no clue on how or what to lube with.

I also see chains in an industrial setting that have the same problem. The sprockets used for them are harder than any sold to dirt bikers and they too will wear in time due to chain stretch. We don't see that wear on our bikes running steel sprockets because the chain will be a stetched piece of speghetti long before we see wear on the titanium,super hard steel, etc...sprocket.
Our front sprocket is far smaller than good engineering practice mandates.
We run a smaller tooth profile than we should and that accelerates wear on our chains to begin with. Couple that fact with the fact that many only think they are adjusting properly, and yet have no clue, and you have the start of chain demise. Not to mention the folks who put dirt magnet glue on their chain as a regular practice.

Ask yourself why some folks have great success with the very same products that you are having bad luck with.....THEN ask yourself how these hard rear sprocket manufacturers can offer a 1 year warranty on their sprocket.
I can answer the latter...it's becasue they are good marketers and they know you have trouble maintaining things properly. They are capitilizing on your ignorance. Don't get all huffy if you feel I just called you ignorant, it simply means you are lacking important knowlege.

 

[flynbryan]

I can testify to a steel sprocket not being a wise idea. :| I slapped one of those puppys on the rear of my 450(not a bike you'd think would be down on hp.)and the steel sprocket took away all of my bottom-end torque/throttle response. I'd go w/an aluminium sprocket. I had to find out the hard way and order another sprocket right away just to get my torque back. I do have a question though Jaybird....?

The most common undue stress is elongation of chain pitch. It's the chain being worn past the recommended length that is causing most peoples problem.

So then I'm assuming the correct deciding factor on when to replace a chain and sprocket is the stretch limits on your chain? Correct?

The most common undue stress is elongation of chain pitch. It's the chain being worn past the recommended length that is causing most peoples problem.

So its also correct to assume that once a chain is shot so are the sprockets, even if they do not yet have curved teeth?

And finally........

The most common problem for accelerating this wear is bad adjustment.

I'm going to assume that most of the general public is like myself, and adjusts their chain by aligning the notches on the swingarm w/the notch on the axle holder. If you are saying this is the wrong way(not saying you are just looking for clarification), then what would be the proper adjustment method. Again Jaybird you and I have gone over this before, but you and I both know that your average person doesn't like supporting the chain and sprocket companies, they just don't know any better. The tacky "dirt attracting lube" is ran by so many people because thats what they've been taught to believe is better. And the only validation I can think of as to why people still run this stuff is this: My only experience w/ a dry lube was the Maxima chain wax. I stopped using the product, because it seemed like I could go out for a 30min. moto and the chain "looked" like it had no lube on it. As where the tacky lubes are still visible. Again not saying this is a correct rational, but I'm willing to bet this is what most other people think. As I said before you and I know most people look for the one time application, or "the easy fix" right or not..... So as you said about people not getting fired up after your definition(I being one of them in the past), I think it takes away the feeling of insult(although I know you don't intend to) if you give alittle explanation as to what Does work after stating what doesn't. Just my .02 take it for what its worth, but I still have the above stated questions as well. :thumb:
Also ignorance is not stupidity, its just a lack of proper information.

 

[flynbryan]

Customer Support: [email protected]

Now I understand where you get your knowledge from my friend. :thumb: I just got finished reading your companies website about adjustment and lubrication, good stuff. CLICK HERE and learn. I indeed now feel more informed. :)

 

[john stu]

JAYBIRD when i said it was with the same chain i ment the same type of chain (did x-ring)not the exact same chain, the chain was brand new i always change them as a set.

 

[Studboy]

My Sprocket Specialist Alum. Rear/Renthal front combo with a CHEAP WPS O-Ring chain (Before I was educated :) ) Even with my super dirt/sand/grit attracting Bel-Ray "Super-Tacky (Crappy)" Chain lube did NOT wear abnormally fast. I did clean them after every ride though, scrubbing for hours to try and get that "Super Tacky" crap off of there. :(

See the light.....Dry chain lube makes 100% sense to me now in a dirt environment, which most chains dirt or street see.

 

[kelsorat]

Wow Jaybird that was a good web site. Interesting alignment technique, it makes perfect sense.
I always aligned with the markers located on the swingarm on my 2 modern bikes.
But I've always had quick wear on my 81 Maico 490 that coincidently does'nt have any markings on the swingarm, so up until I used your technique 30 minutes ago in my room.. err garage I would just measure the threads on my axle alignment dohickys.
It turns out my sprockets were way out of wack.
I'll use your technique on all my bikes now.
Thanks for the info

 

[Jaybird]

Reaching the recommended stretch limits of a chain is when to change it out, however, if you do this you may not have to change out your sprockets.
Sprockets need only be changed out when they show signs of wear.

Sprockets that show no sign of wear need not be changed out. It is visibly apparent when they are shot.

The visible chain lube thing is not only a problem in the motorcycle world, but with the general public. It is a very hard thing to get used to NOT seeing lube and having the feeling that the lube is working. In reality, the places where lubricant works, or the friction points on a roller chain, are not visible to us. So, every bit of lube that you can see is a waste. The only thing lubricant can do for you where you can see it is to help ward off oxidation, and many chains in the dirt bike world have coatings to do this anyway (gold chains, etc...)

As you can see, Bryan, I have a stake in a lube company so if I try to push too far on the benifits of my lube against the others, it becomes spammish. That is why I try not to go into too much detail. However, I have explained the benifits of dry-film lubes in the past here.

Dry-film, usually uses a carrier such as a mineral seal oil, or a solvent, to carry lubricating solids to the friction points. At the friction points are microscopic asperities, or craters, in the metal. Some lubricating solids, such as molybdenum disulfate, are polar and have a natural affinity to adhere to these craters and fill them up. At that point, these solids act like magnets....they adhere to the friction surface yet repel one another and thus carry a friction load. They usually will carry a far greater shock load than petroleum film lubricants, while they will attract NO dirt or grit to help the wear process like parafin based waxes and petroluem films do.

Another benifit of dry-film lubrication is that when the carrier is carrying the solids to their home,it also serves as a cleaning agent that will clean out the asperities of the metal surfaces. Something no petroleum film does.

And finally, dry-film lubes also serve as a water dispersant. There is no need to use WD-40 or similar product when you use a dry film, as dry-films usually are very thin viscosity and disperse water easily by their nature.

 

[flynbryan]

Good stuff Jaybird, after reading from your site I picked up a dry film lubricant(Honda HP) yesterday afternoon. I'm gonna give it a whirl and see how it turns out. :thumb: The only thing I see as an issue is just from a lazyness/practicality stand point. Your company's method of chain adjustment is rather.....in depth.... The idea of taking of the shock everytime I adjust my chain just seems a little overzealous. I'm guessing that it is not accurate enough of a measurement to use the standard bike on the ground under its own weight measurement? Also I have an O-ring and I saw that your company recommends cleaning the chain w/Kerosene intially to remove the factory grease film from packaging. Is this safe w/an O-ring? Overall though very good/informative site, and I did learn quite a bit.

 

[sweden_345]

I can just say one thing: Ironman sprockets !!!!
Yeah baby Yeah!

They do never wear out and they have a one year deal. If they wear out = money back

 

[Jaybird]

bryan, thanks for visiting my site and purchasing from Honda. :)
And yes, kerosene if fine to use on quality ring chains.

sweden, does Ironman sell chains too? You are going to need a good chain supplier. :)

 

[sweden_345]

Nope, Ironman doesnt sell chains (I think) but i run a X-ring chain. Last forever

 

[motometal]

studboy, I notice from your post you say you had a cheap o-ring chain and had good luck/minimal wear...so based on this practical experience, why would you switch if this worked so well? Based on Jaybird's criticism of the chain lube you were using, I suspect service life would have been almost equal if you would have just rode the bike and kept an eye on the adjustment.

Ahh yes...the age old "o-ring" vs "non o-ring" debate. Neither is absolutely "best", it depends on your situation and priorities.

the bottom line here is, if you actually ENJOY maintenance on your bike, cleaning the chain and re-lubing every ride, adjusting the tension on a regular basis, maybe an excuse to get away from the wife, knock yourself out and run a non o-ring chain.

If you would rather spend your time riding, with other hobbies, or just sippin' a beer in front of the computer, buy an o-ring chain and your choice of sprockets and watch the set last 1-2 seasons with zero cleaning and lubing. You may have to adjust the chain about 1-3 times per season (minimal).

 

[Studboy]

motometal,

I didn't like the O-ring chain because it does drag some. It is not a huge difference, but it is enough that I can tell a little bit. Also, it seemed to wear FASTER on my sprockets than my Non O-Ring is right now. I have only had to adjust my non O-Ring once, and my O-Ring was getting longer almost every ride (wear). Besides, the O-Ring costs more. The chain lube I was using on the O-Ring never got inside the chain, so I don't think that it was causing very much of the "stretching" effect (wear.)

But, as you say, if you NEVER EVER do chain maintenance, and don't care about the little bit of drag, knock yourself out and buy an O-Ring chain.
I did, but I'm not going to again, but that's just my opinion and choice.
Most shops push the O-Ring chain idea on people because from their knowledge they will always last longer, which has been proven to be untrue.

 

[motometal]

sounds to me like you got a bum (o-ring) chain, that's the only way I could explain your experience.

Regarding shops recommending a purchase, I have actually seen just the opposite at cycle shops here, they want to push regular chains because they know they will sell way more chain lube, chains, and sprockets!

also, most of the mx guys have themselves convinced that they will place 5 spots further back with all of that extra drag (ok I exaggerate a bit)

one of the few negatives I have found with an o-ring chain, is that it's wider, so you have to keep a closer eye on the chain guides and connector link. Usually the connector link will wear (width-ways) faster, and may not last as long as the chain.

 

[Studboy]

Motometal,

Interesting, all 4 of the local cycle shops that I visit recommend an O-Ring chain because they all say that they last MUCH longer!!! I agree with that statement if you intend to do no maintenance on your chain.

The drag is not huge, but switching back and forth from an O-Ring to Non O-Ring I can slightly tell a difference, that is not my reasoning point for choosing Non O-Ring.

The width can be a problem sometimes, I never had problems on my KX but my friend with a CR125 had to make a shim to fit his O-Ring chain.

My pardons if I come across as calling you stupid or anything for buying an O-Ring it is your personal preference and I don't take anything you say personally and I hope you don't take anything I say that way! :debil:

Wouldn't it be silly if we were all fighting over chains??? :)
We could form two gangs, O-Ring and Competition chains and we could have little shootouts and stuff!!! OK, now I'm just being silly. :)

 

[motometal]

it's all good, you will find it very tough to offend me, although it feels a bit weird to have this party without Jaybird... :moon: he must be out in the garage cleaning and lubing his chain!

 

[Jaybird]

Scott,
I know you think I spend mucho hours cleaning, lubing, and adjusting my chains....but it just aint so. I spend far less time than the average rider does, yet I get far more life out of my stuff than most.
There is a good reason for it. :)

Party on, dewds!

 

[motometal]

I almost forgot about that magic gizwhammer tool you made...i'm sure that helps.

Some day bikes will be hydrostatic or belt drive, and we won't have anything to debate. how boring.