Switch From 4 Back to 2-stroke?

DougRoost · Jul 29, 2004

Meanwhile KTM keeps selling out of all their 2-stroke offroad bikes, in many cases (like my local dealer) leaving 4-strokes on dealer's floors. Product does matter -- GM lost sight of that a few years ago when they brought all those brand managers in from soap companies and let product development languish (thank God Bob Lutz is there now!).

I understand Honda has 4-stroke jet skis, 4-stroke weedeaters, etc. for sale now. Sounds like they let the pendulum swing too far to the 4-stroke side. Hopefully people will make them pay with great sales of YZs, RMs, KTMs, etc.

viking20 · Jul 29, 2004

I really hope the 2-stokes will stay for many years to come...Over here nobody is riding 2-strokes outside closed mx-tracks , but we are off course not offered bikes that US citizens cant (or wont ! ) buy.....Because if you guys dont buy them , they will simply stop making them !!! The price-difference for a 250f compared to a 125 is around 2000 $ over here and it will slowly , but surely cut down on the number of riders....in the next years , when people are buying 1 year-old 250f´s when they are starting to ride , and the bike has been nursed through 1 season with a fast rider and all the maintenance and engine work will be left to the next owner , people will be scared away from the sport , before they have even started....As it has been said many times before in here , most Dads can change the top-end of a 2-stroke , but lots of people dont dare to repair the 4-strokes....I know people that have their dealer change the camchain in the YZF every 8 hours , "just to be safe " ! These are the people that used to have 2 new bikes every season , now they can only afford one !

steve125 · Jul 29, 2004

DougRoost said:
I understand Honda has 4-stroke jet skis, 4-stroke weedeaters, etc. for sale now. Sounds like they let the pendulum swing too far to the 4-stroke side. Hopefully people will make them pay with great sales of YZs, RMs, KTMs, etc.

I read somewhere, that Honda considers itself a "fourstroke company".

Doug after what you just said, and thinking back over the years. It must be true, their hearts just aren't into the 2 stroke motor. :|

Rich Rohrich · Jul 29, 2004

steve125 said:
I read somewhere, that Honda considers itself a "fourstroke company".

Doug after what you just said, and thinking back over the years. It must be true, their hearts just aren't into the 2 stroke motor. :|

Yeah all those Elsinores, RS & NSRs were real pooch bikes Steve. ;)

It does seem like they've haven't put their best efforts into it lately though.

jimt_yz400 · Jul 29, 2004

Great thread!!
I've owned every four stroke that Yamaha made (for MX that is) starting from the YZ400 up to an '03 YZ250F. I've been lucky to never blow any of them up though I do well them after 8 to 10 months.
I keep up on the valve clearance and use that as a gauge to sell them and I also run full sythetic, but I'm not sure that helps or not. My son has been racing for the last 2 years and I now have him on a 200SX to race the 250 class. He is currently 2nd in points. He rode my 200SX and loved the handling. compered to his '04 CRF250. I ended up getting him one and he is much more smoother on it and is able to be more aggressive on it that I bought a used 125SX for him to try. He loves the weight and how quick it handles and stops. We are now selling the CRF250 and my '03 CRF450.
The only 4stroke that I am still riding is a 450MXC and I am thinking of selling that to get an '02 CR250 for trail riding (green sticker thing!). I think the cost of maintenance for the smaller 4 strokes will eventually cause many amateur racers and Dads to stop racing.
This would really be a huge impact on our sport if that happened. I am seeing it now at the tracks where we race, way too many 250 4 strokes with problems. When that happens I don't see the kids at the races for a very long time.
I'm not sure that the 4 stroke technology is helping the sport!
just my 2c.
Cheers!

steve125 · Jul 29, 2004

Rich Rohrich said:
Yeah all those Elsinores, RS & NSRs were real pooch bikes Steve. ;)

LOL, Rich those development guys retired from Honda a long time ago!!!

And I wish they would come back! :worship:

darringer · Jul 29, 2004

Honda is a motorcycle company. If there is still money to be made with 2 strokes, then they will continue to develop and sell them.

Rich Rohrich · Jul 29, 2004

steve125 said:
LOL, Rich those development guys retired from Honda a long time ago!!!

And I wish they would come back! :worship:

Yeah I kind of miss that psychotic level of committment from Honda.

James · Jul 29, 2004

I like my Honda CR250s

pace · Jul 29, 2004

I agree with most of the sentiment in this thread. I think that the state of the 2005 CRs (assuming they are released) will be a definitive statement on Honda's view of the two-stroke market. If we get the slimmer 4th gen frame, and revised motors that can run with KTM and Suzuki, then there's hope. Conversely if we get mildly revised 2004 models, then I think it's clear where all of Honda's efforts will be focused. And in that case I'll switch back to Yamaha or maybe give Suzuki or KTM a try. I intend to shop a new two-smoke in the 2006 model year.

I love my CR, but I think it's pretty sad that Honda has moved from trend setter to bandwagon rider. As I said earlier, it's somewhat ironic that Yamaha may be the manufacturer to champion a two-stroke resurgence.

-Pace

Rider 007 · Jul 29, 2004

steve125 said:
I read somewhere, that Honda considers itself a "fourstroke company". |

Steve,
I read the same thing... about 30 years ago in an interview with Mr. Honda.

They were fighting the two-stroke trend of the time. They considered them to be inferior and perhaps even a fad. :yikes:

Sometimes I feel dizzy from seeing so many things come full circle.... :yeehaw:

bclapham · Jul 29, 2004

viking20 said:
The price-difference for a 250f compared to a 125 is around 2000 $ over here and it will slowly , but surely cut down on the number of riders....in the next years , when people are buying 1 year-old 250f´s when they are starting to ride , and the bike has been nursed through 1 season with a fast rider and all the maintenance and engine work will be left to the next owner , people will be scared away from the sport , before they have even started....As it has been said many times before in here , most Dads can change the top-end of a 2-stroke , but lots of people dont dare to repair the 4-strokes....I know people that have their dealer change the camchain in the YZF every 8 hours , "just to be safe " ! These are the people that used to have 2 new bikes every season , now they can only afford one !

thats what worries me most....the only kids left racing are gonna be them spoilt little oiks whose dads pay for everything. :|

d36RM racer · Jul 29, 2004

I remember watching mx a few years back and timm ferry was the only 4stroke rider and he didn't really want to be and everyone said he was faster on a 2stroke now I hear honda wants to be a all 4stroke company by 2008 or somthing like that they are also trying to make a 4stroke standup jet ski which is going to be a heavy pig due to the fact its gonna have to have at least a 1000cc 4stroke motor.

Lonewolf · Jul 29, 2004

i rode my friends 04 yz 250 tonight, the first time i rode it i struggeled with the hit because i am used to riding four strokes but this time it didnt bother me as bad and i thought the bike was really fun to ride. i kind of regret buying my crf 250r, i want a two stroke 250 now.

sodflyer · Jul 29, 2004

Lonewolf said:
i rode my friends 04 yz 250 tonight, the first time i rode it i struggeled with the hit because i am used to riding four strokes but this time it didnt bother me as bad and i thought the bike was really fun to ride. i kind of regret buying my crf 250r, i want a two stroke 250 now.

Fun huh :) I can't get enough of my 04 yz250 and can't see how thay could make it any better Jeff.

viking20 · Jul 29, 2004

bclapham said:
thats what worries me most....the only kids left racing are gonna be them spoilt little oiks whose dads pay for everything. :|

Exactly , Bruce......And , dont forget , if Dad cant repair the bike , Junior will probably never learn it either.......I dont hate 4-strokes , and could easily repair it myself , I just find it hard to be able to buy one ! Also , I dont hate Honda , heck , most of my streetbikes have been Hondas , but its really depressing to see them neglecting the 125 2 strokes....Honda very much see themselves as a Motorcycle company , and take geat pride in building the best bikes in the different kinds of racing , the fact that they are not serious about the 2-strokes just shows us what their opinion on future bikes is , certainly not a lack of ability from them , IMO....I love this sport , and most kinds of racing , and I love being involved with my whole family , even though my son will probably never win anything , we still have lots of fun together . I really think the reason he is a good kid today , is because of all the time we have spent together since he was 5 years old , because of the sport....Thats why I would hate to see people be scared away by the higher cost of racing..Yamaha got a head start with the 4 strokes , I would love to see their 05 models give them a head start with new , improved 2-strokes...

Lonewolf · Jul 30, 2004

it seems like a lot of te kids at the track are spoiled, at least in my area. these kids have it made, multiple bikes, motorhomes, enclosed trailers,etc...

GhostRider32 · Jul 30, 2004

viking20 said:
Exactly , Bruce......And , dont forget , if Dad cant repair the bike , Junior will probably never learn it either.......I dont hate 4-strokes , and could easily repair it myself , I just find it hard to be able to buy one ! Also , I dont hate Honda , heck , most of my streetbikes have been Hondas , but its really depressing to see them neglecting the 125 2 strokes....Honda very much see themselves as a Motorcycle company , and take geat pride in building the best bikes in the different kinds of racing , the fact that they are not serious about the 2-strokes just shows us what their opinion on future bikes is , certainly not a lack of ability from them , IMO....I love this sport , and most kinds of racing , and I love being involved with my whole family , even though my son will probably never win anything , we still have lots of fun together . I really think the reason he is a good kid today , is because of all the time we have spent together since he was 5 years old , because of the sport....Thats why I would hate to see people be scared away by the higher cost of racing..Yamaha got a head start with the 4 strokes , I would love to see their 05 models give them a head start with new , improved 2-strokes...

Absolutely, no doubt, kids on average turn out better when their father is around to spend time with them. There is always the exception, but this has been proven over and over.

DougRoost · Jul 30, 2004

RAR said:
I called my local Honda dealer today and asked about the '05 CR's. He said he didn't order any this year. He ordered all 4 strokes. He says they just don't sell. :ugg:

As was mentioned all the GNCC riders have gone back to 2 strokes. Even Jeff Fredette tried the KXF and said he preferred the snappier 2 stroke for woods racing.

So it's telling that none of the big GNCC or harescrambles racers ride red. Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, and KTM field the top teams in these series. Only in the desert does Honda compete, recently switching from XR650s to CRF450s. Thinking a little more, a couple issues ago Dirt Rider mag did a connected series of features on building and riding replicas of these pro's bikes and they had to do their own make-believe Honda CR build up.

Mike R. · Jul 31, 2004

Oops wrong subject

Opps :bang:

ACGUY · Aug 1, 2004

I have owned three YZ250Fs, and I still love my RM250. The F's ride well. But with the RM, when you want the power NOW, you got it. With a little suspension work, it rides just as well. Power kits are cheap, and easy. Exhaust parts are affordable, and you don't have to rejet the carb every time the temperqture or humidity changes. A $95.00 top end kit as opposed to $750.00 makes a slight differrence too.

2kCR500R · Aug 2, 2004

I think you all should Email a link to this thread to Honda and the AMA to voice your opinions.

Pingers for life!!!!
John :cool:

Chief · Aug 5, 2004

First time I saw this thread. Man it's GREAT to see so many people who are into the 2 stroke. (or back into it) Customer preference will go a long way in determining wether or not they discontinue the chainsaws.

One of my buds e-mailed me today saying he just bought an '03 CR250 and he LOVES IT!!! This is the same guy that likes to sit on his DRZ and tell everyone else that we should get a 'Real Man's Machine' so naturally I had to remind him about it. :debil: but I am really happy about it and happy for him.

I've been on many 4's. Some of my first bikes were 4's and great machines. Once I got on an MX 2stroke tho, nothing else ever sufficed.

Just a disclaimer here, I always thought it was a waste of energy to argue over what is the 'BEST', 2 or 4. If you ride it and you like it, that's all that really matters. I happen to prefer 2 stroke.

Chief

CaptainObvious · Aug 5, 2004

I've owned 2-strokes since 1973 (I rode some real junk in the past). The current two-strokes are just phenomenal bikes.

However (here comes my flame bait I guess), I got the chance to ride a YZF250 last weekend. As much as I love the hit of a 2S, that 4S had power everywhere. The bike never felt heavy either. It was just soooo easy to ride. Jumps that took careful set-up on my KX were non-events on the YZF. In fact, I found myself over jumping on the 4S. I also rode a KTM400SX, once again it was a very easy bike to ride, but it isn't fair to compare my KX125 to a bike with that displacment.

I don’t plan on selling my KX, but after 30 years of riding on 2-stroke machines, I’ll be shopping for a YZF or CRF250 this winter. I am concerned about the noise (I’ll do all I can to make it quiet) and maintenance, but I fell that the extra cost is worth the money.

pace · Aug 5, 2004

No flaming, but..

That the 250Fs are easier to ride, and faster than the 125 twos is widely acknowledged. However, many of us also believe that the 100% displacement advantage does not constitute a level playing field. Bottom line is that the four-strokes are legislated technology that does nothing to advance our sport.

I agree that it's difficult to justify racing a 125 in the 250F class, but the 450F versus 250 scenario is not quite so black and white.

Maybe you should try to snag a test ride on an '05 YZ125 and see how that 17lb weight advantage over the 250F feels on the track..

-Pace

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