Switch From 4 Back to 2-stroke?

[MikeT]

How many of you two-strokers let your engines go until they grenade? Not many, most of you are doing atleast one top end a season and the racers are doing rebuilds a few times a season. That is the problem with the new four-stroke owners, they aren't taking the proper preventative maintainance to keep their new thumpers running.

See, that's the thing. The FACT is that most of us only do the easy things when it comes to maintenance and some do even less than that. Doing the top end on a 4-stroke is a difficult thing and bringing it to the dealer is a hassle and expensive (because the dealer knows it is a pain to do change the top end also). Then the owner of the 4-stroke says to himself "Maybe it will last another couple of months". Then when it blows up $1400. WOW!

On the other hand, the 2-stroke guy goes and buys a piston kit with all the goodies for $97 and does the job himself in about 2 hours because he took his time and a snack break.

You see when 4-strokes came out in '98 people bought them and thought they were buying a liquid cooled XR. Not so. All those bikes that the average rider bought in '98-'02 are well beyond their top ends life span (because why would you need to do a top end on a 4-stroke) so they are now beginning to blow up. And just look and see, as the 4-strokes start to make more power and get lighter, they will have shorter and shorter top end schedules. I just think this whole 4-stroke thing is going to pass over in a couple of years if the govt. doesn't ruin it for us.

 

[DougRoost]

Mainly lets it lug and chug better. Just smoother on the bottom and not as prone to stalling. No noticeable loss on top end...in fact may be smoother down fire roads and such. Supposedly the big trade-off of a flywheel weight is the bike doesn't rev as fast, but these little motors rev so that's not an issue (nor so much in the woods).

 

[James980]

If you don't mind, can you tell me a good description of how it makes the 100 feel?

FWW work the same on all bikes. They are simply a device that takes energy from the acceleration process, "stores" it, and releases it when the engine decelerates.

When a FWW slows down the rate at which the engine gains speed this means traction is easier to find, slipping the clutch less necessary and any "hit" of the power delivery feels less severe because it is spread out a bit.

When the throttle is closed, the extra weight on the FW keeps the crank turning. The effect of this is the bike is harder to stall.

Most people don't notice the slight slowdown in acceleration from a FWW because all that extra engine speed was just lost in wasted wheelspin anyhow.

FWWs are not magic, but next to jetting your bike properly, running the right gearing and keeping your disposables (tires, top end, clutch, air filter, etc.) fresh, they will give you the biggest power modification for your money.

 

[mxer842]

See, that's the thing. The FACT is that most of us only do the easy things when it comes to maintenance and some do even less than that. Doing the top end on a 4-stroke is a difficult thing and bringing it to the dealer is a hassle and expensive (because the dealer knows it is a pain to do change the top end also). Then the owner of the 4-stroke says to himself "Maybe it will last another couple of months". Then when it blows up $1400. WOW!

Yep, and unless people do this preventative maintainance we will see a lot more "blown 250F" topics. The simple facts are that biting the bullet for new valves, springs, guides, piston kit, timing chain, and crankshaft assembly is a lot less expensive than having to get all the above along with a cylinder and head. As more and more people blow these I think a lot of people will switch back, but for us racers the simple fact is that most people can't be competitive against the 250f's on a 125 though.

 

[steve125]

Yep, and unless people do this preventative maintainance we will see a lot more "blown 250F" topics. The simple facts are that biting the bullet for new valves, springs, guides, piston kit, timing chain, and crankshaft assembly is a lot less expensive than having to get all the above along with a cylinder and head. As more and more people blow these I think a lot of people will switch back, but for us racers the simple fact is that most people can't be competitive against the 250f's on a 125 though.

Of course not! because its no longer the 125 class. I really just don't understand this crap. :|

How have these 250F's helped racing??? The expense has to have doubled. From racing exhausts to valve jobs, to poor re-sale value, because everyone knows, used, their time bombs.

And how about NOISE, its out of control.

Is the racing any better???

So would someone please tell me, how these bikes are good for the sport???

 

[DougRoost]

Steve, all good points. Will be interesting to see if the '05 YZ125s reignite the 2 strokes, since they are 17 pounds lighter than an '05 YZ250F.

 

[marcusgunby]

I suspect the Oem companies didnt make a huge amount on spares for 2 strokes-they certainly do now-they are having a laugh IMO.

 

[mxer842]

Back when two-strokes were in their teething stages in the '60's they had questionable reliabiltity like the new four-strokes we are seeing now, but as time went on they evolved into the much faster much more reliable machines we have today. In time I'm sure that the reliability of the four-strokes will get much better, although the repair bills will take much longer.

 

[john3_16]

Back when two-strokes were in their teething stages in the '60's they had questionable reliabiltity like the new four-strokes we are seeing now, but as time went on they evolved into the much faster much more reliable machines we have today. In time I'm sure that the reliability of the four-strokes will get much better, although the repair bills will take much longer.

I don't know about that....4 strokes have been around for a long time...They aren't anything new.....The 4 strokes have to be built to the max to compete with current two strokes....That means high rpm.

The repair bill won't get any cheaper as long as the number of parts stay the same nor will failures..The more moving parts the more chance of a engine related failure...

With that many moving parts and the way these things have to run to match the power of a smaller two stroke I just don't see that happening unless a completely new engine design comes around...

 

[mxer842]

I don't know about that....4 strokes have been around for a long time...They aren't anything new.....The 4 strokes have to be built to the max to compete with current two strokes....That means high rpm.

The repair bill won't get any cheaper as long as the number of parts stay the same nor will failures..The more moving parts the more chance of a engine related failure...

With that many moving parts and the way these things have to run to match the power of a smaller two stroke I just don't see that happening unless a completely new engine design comes around...

Once the manufactures realize that they are losing big bucks because the repair bills on these bikes are driving many people away or out of the sport, the prices will come down. Once the "newness" of the technology wears off I see the prices coming down, I'm not saying a full four-stroke top end will be $100, but it isn't going to be the $1000+ we are hearing about nowadays. Just my $.02

 

[mtk]

The parts prices on 4-stroke sportbikes hasn't gotten any cheaper over the years. I see no reason to believe that 4-stroke dirtbike parts will somehow be treated differently.

 

[steve125]

Steve, all good points. Will be interesting to see if the '05 YZ125s reignite the 2 strokes, since they are 17 pounds lighter than an '05 YZ250F.

As much as I would like it too, the new YZ125 will still fall short to the power of the 250F's. The YZ is gona be a awesome bike, but against a modded F it still will be hurtin on the start. It just won't have the passing power, but it can still make time if its in the front, but thats the only time really.

My YZ 144 runs even in a drag, to a bit better than a stock RMZ/KXF. The CRF is all even to a bit better for the CRF. Once modded ive got nothing for them, those bikes can get to 38hp without much work.

Sorry, but the 05 YZ 125 with just with a bit more power and lighter weight, well its still not enough. :( A 144 maybe???

The 125 class is gone, well at least for now. :ugg:

 

[bclapham]

they could bring in the one engine per weekend rule- it would be funny to see about 8 guys on the line come sunday!!!

or maybe bring in a forced sound limit to the thumpers that would maybe curb their power advatage???

 

[steve125]

they could bring in the one engine per weekend rule- it would be funny to see about 8 guys on the line come sunday!!!
LOL :rotfl: Bruce!.........or the AMA can put everone on a yearly spending budget! go over and your done for the year. Id like to know how many riders are getting themselves into some serious debt over these 250F's.

or maybe bring in a forced sound limit to the thumpers that would maybe curb their power advatage???

the AMA anounced that, so when is that supposed to happen? after all the 125's are gone?

 

[bclapham]

great minds think alike stevie!!!!:) i feel sorry for the spotty 17 year old that flips burgers all week to race at the weekend. now he has to spend an extra grand to buy a race bike stright from the dealer, and then insead of spending $200 on a couple of top end jobs throughout the season, plonks down $2000 to just get his bike working again.......this is after he has spent $800 on a exhaust system to make his bike go as fast as the snotty little kid whos dad pays for everything.

 

[steve125]

great minds think alike stevie!!!!:) i feel sorry for the spotty 17 year old that flips burgers all week to race at the weekend. now he has to spend an extra grand to buy a race bike stright from the dealer, and then insead of spending $200 on a couple of top end jobs throughout the season, plonks down $2000 to just get his bike working again.......this is after he has spent $800 on a exhaust system to make his bike go as fast as the snotty little kid whos dad pays for everything.

Right Bruce! Come on people write the AMA and the FIM and tell those *******s you want the 125's back to being 125's! :clue:

 

[d36RM racer]

great minds think alike stevie!!!!:) i feel sorry for the spotty 17 year old that flips burgers all week to race at the weekend. now he has to spend an extra grand to buy a race bike stright from the dealer, and then insead of spending $200 on a couple of top end jobs throughout the season, plonks down $2000 to just get his bike working again.......this is after he has spent $800 on a exhaust system to make his bike go as fast as the snotty little kid whos dad pays for everything.

Im that 17year old except im 18 now and I work on spas but I started at $6.75 and bought a brand new 03 RM250 at the end of the year sale and Im due for a new top end in the next few months I figure it will cost about 150 and im back in action :nener: oh yeah my 250 can hold its ground aginst any 4stroke that comes near me espically in the woods

 

[Lonewolf]

steve125, i want to write to the AMA and FIM, who should i direct my emails or letter to? i dont want to see two strokes disappear, i like having the freedom of riding a two stroke or a four stroke but would like to see a level playing, i agree with you something needs to be done.

 

[ScottS]

I think the 4's are too loud and expensive. I just went back to a 2 stroke even though my KTM 620 is different than the new generation "kaboom" four strokes- mine is bulletproof and quiet- it just weighs a lot. I enjoy riding it but love the rush of a 2 stroke- and my KTM 2 stroke is quiet too.

I think the new 4's are bad for the sport and for land access issues.

 

[RAR]

I called my local Honda dealer today and asked about the '05 CR's. He said he didn't order any this year. He ordered all 4 strokes. He says they just don't sell. :ugg:

 

[GhostRider32]

I called my local Honda dealer today and asked about the '05 CR's. He said he didn't order any this year. He ordered all 4 strokes. He says they just don't sell. :ugg:

Call him back and tell him that your money is green everywhere and the dealer down the road will be happy to sell you a bike that he can't sell. :think:

 

[kx134]

2 strokes aren't going anywhere. they are still more FUN. that's what it's all about.


I do believe the mags are 100% pro thumper
/\
agreed...i was shocked that mxa had an article about why 2 strokes are still kick ass. and they are.

 

[bedell99]

Hmmm let me get this correct, he didn't order any. Damn Honda they are screwing this up for themselves. Market image is taken as a whole. Yamaha uses this advantage to sell both there 4-strokes and two strokes. If Honda could make a 2-stroke that can compare to the YZ & RM they would sell a whole boatload. The bottomline is your product. A CRF450 sells because it a great bike. Not because RC is kicking butt on one. In 2002 Honda sold a ton CR's. I know this because you couldn't get one in Colorado, cause many of dealers sold out and I had to wait till another batch came in April, even though I put a deposit down in Feburary. I know they also sold amy CRF450's and keep continuing to sell alot. in the same token look at what happened to the RM250. The sales where off the charts this year. No they didn't sell as many as a CRF450, but the dealers did well on them. It was because they had a good product. I know in my heart Honda can produce a top of line 2-stroke but I think there commitment is going in the wrong direction. there are many people in the same boat as me who are looking at the 05 2-stroke 250's and waiting to see what Honda is going to come out with in Sept. b4 plunking down $6000.00. I'm starting to get fed up with Honda, first with the RC thing and now with this delay of the 2-strokes.

Erik

 

[CRspode]

I agree with you bedell99. I'm getting fed up with Honda. Hopefully they prove us wrong and release some updated two strokes in September. I won't be forced into a four stroke when there are good two stroke options out there. Honda, do you want my $6K? If not, I'm sure Suzuki, Yamaha, KTM or Kawasaki would like it. I'm going to buy what I want, not what you want to sell me.

Scott

 

[steve125]

I love Hondas, but at the same time I'm sooooo tired of them when it comes to the 2 smokes.

How many years have we been waiting on a good 125 motor??? They managed to hit an all time low in 03 and 04 wasn't much better. For 04 they go through all this trouble and install a cable PV system (it made no difference) Then leave the same old timey steel head gasket, thats been around for 14 years, and yes its still blows and needs replacement. The basic design of the engine is a 1990 CR 125 and that was faster! When you look back over the years you have to think WTF Honda! :bang:

The 250 is in the same boat, but it got an all new motor and its worse than the previous one. :ohmy:
So let me get this out of the way now, for the 05 2 smokes from Honda.

WTF?????????????? :bang:

Seems nothing has changed :ugg: