Harry Reed
Member
- Oct 1, 2001
- 20
- 0
Sorry, I forgot to suggest a running temp. Say 275-300 deg. ?
Tech-care suspension
- Thread starter jzyz
- Start date
Jeremy Wilkey
Owner, MX-Tech
- Jan 28, 2000
- 1,453
- 0
Harry,
Cool offer, and one I may take you up on... Jeff and I are collaboarting on this project and have some real intresting prospects.. I started looking for oil about 6 years ago.. Eventully I found a set-up that worked, and let it pretty much stayed ther for a few years, with only minor changes.. Last Spring we started approaching Mobil about working to find something better..
Jeff and I began some dialog, and decide to work together on the oil project.. I've been concetrating on WP stuff and Jeff's got some great stuff for Jap shocks.. Honestly he knows more than I do right now so I'm trying to chatch up..
I have a Dyno in the works, but we may decide to do somestuff with your equpiment, as I'm getting a fairly basic model. Jeff or myself will get with you on this..
Regards,
Jer
Cool offer, and one I may take you up on... Jeff and I are collaboarting on this project and have some real intresting prospects.. I started looking for oil about 6 years ago.. Eventully I found a set-up that worked, and let it pretty much stayed ther for a few years, with only minor changes.. Last Spring we started approaching Mobil about working to find something better..
Jeff and I began some dialog, and decide to work together on the oil project.. I've been concetrating on WP stuff and Jeff's got some great stuff for Jap shocks.. Honestly he knows more than I do right now so I'm trying to chatch up..
I have a Dyno in the works, but we may decide to do somestuff with your equpiment, as I'm getting a fairly basic model. Jeff or myself will get with you on this..
Regards,
Jer
http://www.motul.com/motulbaseuk/gab_fiche1.asp
new motul shock fluid , synthetic with a claimed VI of 400
new motul shock fluid , synthetic with a claimed VI of 400
MikeT
~SPONSOR~
- Jan 17, 2001
- 4,112
- 11
I just called Harry and spoke to him. His shop is only about 20 minutes from my house. He sounds very interested in doing the testing and I think it will be good to find out for sure what the REAL deal is with all these fluids. I have been just buying the expensive stuff and wouldn't mind knowing for sure if I'm throwing my money away or actually buying good stuff.
From my conversations with Harry, he sounds most knowledgeable on the topic of suspension and I think his tests would shine some good light on this subject.
Jeremy, I hope you take him up on it.
We used to suffer problems with fade and inconsistancy in shock operation on road race shocks after about half race distance, we've pretty much cured this by using a combination of Silkolene Pro RSF 2.5 suspension fluid which has a VI of 464 and by pre-heating the shock with a shockwarmer.
(They are availible in Europe from Reactive Suspension in England 01904 750109.)
(They are availible in Europe from Reactive Suspension in England 01904 750109.)
Good point SVI, I've always set up road race bikes with very light oil in the shock & forks so the damping is the same (or close to the same) from turn one to the finish line and often wondered why off road bikes don't do the same? I guess that’s up there with why road race guys use contact cleaner by the case and off road guys use a solvent tank???
As for the M1 ATF, I thought Jer was on crack after I got a few kits and saw his pistons, I called him for a quick run down of what the hell he was thinking with his set up, after a good explanation of how it works I gave the stuff a chance (still thinking he was on crack!) and to my surprise it worked in all three bikes (01 426, 01 MXC 400 & 99 KDX 220) better than the high flow monster valve stack stuff that was in a few already. He keeps telling me to try the M1 ATF (I used branded suspension oil) so I guess I'll take his word on it seeing that he proved me wrong once.
Everybody can say what they want, this if a free speech place, but if you haven't actually done it with your own hands in a controlled environment (same everything, different oil) then don't talk smack from other peoples info. Remember, it was only a few years ago the masses said four strokes would NEVER be a threat to two strokes......... Always keep an open mind, what didn't work yesterday might work tomorrow.
Good Thread!
As for the M1 ATF, I thought Jer was on crack after I got a few kits and saw his pistons, I called him for a quick run down of what the hell he was thinking with his set up, after a good explanation of how it works I gave the stuff a chance (still thinking he was on crack!) and to my surprise it worked in all three bikes (01 426, 01 MXC 400 & 99 KDX 220) better than the high flow monster valve stack stuff that was in a few already. He keeps telling me to try the M1 ATF (I used branded suspension oil) so I guess I'll take his word on it seeing that he proved me wrong once.
Everybody can say what they want, this if a free speech place, but if you haven't actually done it with your own hands in a controlled environment (same everything, different oil) then don't talk smack from other peoples info. Remember, it was only a few years ago the masses said four strokes would NEVER be a threat to two strokes......... Always keep an open mind, what didn't work yesterday might work tomorrow.
Good Thread!
Harry Reed
Member
- Oct 1, 2001
- 20
- 0
I will start running some shocks on the dyno this week. If anybody has a suggestion on what they would like to see, please let me know.
I'll probably start a big mess by saying this, but the best shock fliud you can use is about .99cents a gallon.
I have won lots of races using it, but the maintanence is high.
Can any one guess what it is ?
I'll probably start a big mess by saying this, but the best shock fliud you can use is about .99cents a gallon.
I have won lots of races using it, but the maintanence is high.
Can any one guess what it is ?
John Curea
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Feb 29, 2000
- 177
- 0
Harry
The only thing I can think of that costs .99/gallon was that jungle juice we mixed up at Kent St. But I dont think an alcoholic drink one step above sterno would provide the damping qualities we are looking for... :) :)
Seriously,
I'd like to see a PDS put through the ringer, when our pro level rider finishes a 3+hour GNCC race, you cant even get near that thing. We are going to take an infared thermometer to the next race to record the temperature.
There 3 main causes I beleive for the excessive temps:
1. 18mm shaft diplaces more oil.
2. Low oil volume in the resevoir
3. More friction related heat stemming from the closer tolerance of the piston bands to shock body (and also the fact that there are two pistons).
It would be interesting to see if a dyno with a 2" throw would heat up a shock the same as race conditions?!
Take Care, John
The only thing I can think of that costs .99/gallon was that jungle juice we mixed up at Kent St. But I dont think an alcoholic drink one step above sterno would provide the damping qualities we are looking for... :) :)
Seriously,
I'd like to see a PDS put through the ringer, when our pro level rider finishes a 3+hour GNCC race, you cant even get near that thing. We are going to take an infared thermometer to the next race to record the temperature.
There 3 main causes I beleive for the excessive temps:
1. 18mm shaft diplaces more oil.
2. Low oil volume in the resevoir
3. More friction related heat stemming from the closer tolerance of the piston bands to shock body (and also the fact that there are two pistons).
It would be interesting to see if a dyno with a 2" throw would heat up a shock the same as race conditions?!
Take Care, John
Harry Reed
Member
- Oct 1, 2001
- 20
- 0
John,
The standard roehrig dyno that I use can get a shock up to 300 deg. in about 5-6 min. So that is not a problem.
Last week I ordered a Roehrig electro magnetic dyno. This dyno has a seven inch stroke, and can run shaft speeds up to three meters per second.
I think this will be pretty good to run the PDS damper on.
As far as the shock fluid, it is simply water. It is the best shock fluid in the world, just very hard to manage.
Water doesn't fade, has little, or no compresability, and is a very good lube for rubber.
We use a 10% mixture of water wetter, 90% water. When we use this, as was stated earlier, you have to pre-heat the damper for maximum performance.
The web site for roehrig is www.roehrigengineering.com
The standard roehrig dyno that I use can get a shock up to 300 deg. in about 5-6 min. So that is not a problem.
Last week I ordered a Roehrig electro magnetic dyno. This dyno has a seven inch stroke, and can run shaft speeds up to three meters per second.
I think this will be pretty good to run the PDS damper on.
As far as the shock fluid, it is simply water. It is the best shock fluid in the world, just very hard to manage.
Water doesn't fade, has little, or no compresability, and is a very good lube for rubber.
We use a 10% mixture of water wetter, 90% water. When we use this, as was stated earlier, you have to pre-heat the damper for maximum performance.
The web site for roehrig is www.roehrigengineering.com
John Curea
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Feb 29, 2000
- 177
- 0
Harry
Nice dyno!
Interesting, you have my attention on using water! I can relate to the idea of "not following the beaten' path'....
I seriously believe that we work in an industry that is just begging for new technology.....
I have been working that last 5 rounds of the GNCC series, this has been a very interesting and demanding enviroment to work suspension. I almost wondered at first why no one was there working this lucrative arena, its one thing to build a bike for a guy to race 15 minutes of motocross. It's quite another to build a bike to handle ALL types of terrain, from moto to nasty rocks and roots for 3+ hours without wearing the rider out. Very rider preference oriented. Its one thing to get solid feedback from a rider after a 15 minute moto, you strap him on a bike for 3 hours, he'll tell you what's up with the suspension!!
After driving 700-800 miles one way to these races in a boxvan by yourself you get to do alot of brain crunching!! We are presently working on an idea, a "postion sensitive, low volume bladder" mod that will try to get us closer to the main requirement of the off-road rider- "suspension that will pick up the small trail junk and still be able to handle to full-moto sections" in other words, they want the best of both worlds.....we are working on it.....
Looking forward to the dyno results...
Take Care, John
Nice dyno!
Interesting, you have my attention on using water! I can relate to the idea of "not following the beaten' path'....
I seriously believe that we work in an industry that is just begging for new technology.....
I have been working that last 5 rounds of the GNCC series, this has been a very interesting and demanding enviroment to work suspension. I almost wondered at first why no one was there working this lucrative arena, its one thing to build a bike for a guy to race 15 minutes of motocross. It's quite another to build a bike to handle ALL types of terrain, from moto to nasty rocks and roots for 3+ hours without wearing the rider out. Very rider preference oriented. Its one thing to get solid feedback from a rider after a 15 minute moto, you strap him on a bike for 3 hours, he'll tell you what's up with the suspension!!
After driving 700-800 miles one way to these races in a boxvan by yourself you get to do alot of brain crunching!! We are presently working on an idea, a "postion sensitive, low volume bladder" mod that will try to get us closer to the main requirement of the off-road rider- "suspension that will pick up the small trail junk and still be able to handle to full-moto sections" in other words, they want the best of both worlds.....we are working on it.....
Looking forward to the dyno results...
Take Care, John
Harry Reed
Member
- Oct 1, 2001
- 20
- 0
Vic,
When we run the h2o, we use distilled water with some redline water wetter. The same gas pressure is used. To ask every bodies next question. No the water will not boil. It is under pressure. Now if you pull one off the dyno, and it is still over the boiling point, take it from me, it will boil when you crack it open. It's not pleasant when it does either !
As far as the forks go, I don't think that would work. Fork fluids have additives to prevent foaming, and the fork does not run near the internal pressure that a damper see's. Don't think I would try that.
When we run the h2o, we use distilled water with some redline water wetter. The same gas pressure is used. To ask every bodies next question. No the water will not boil. It is under pressure. Now if you pull one off the dyno, and it is still over the boiling point, take it from me, it will boil when you crack it open. It's not pleasant when it does either !
As far as the forks go, I don't think that would work. Fork fluids have additives to prevent foaming, and the fork does not run near the internal pressure that a damper see's. Don't think I would try that.
KawieKX125
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 9, 2000
- 948
- 0
Ummmm, I may be missing something, but how do you assure proper lubrication of the shock when using water as oil? And why do you use water as oil?
Jeremy Wilkey
Owner, MX-Tech
- Jan 28, 2000
- 1,453
- 0
Harry,
Dude your the man.. That is some serious Fire power your throwing at the shock..
As for the water how do you deal with the fluid wanting to boil? I suspose if you run a high enough gas pressure..
I think we need to evaluate fluids on several criteria.
-Performance.
-Life
-Fade resistance
-Addtive package and how that relates to wear, seals, etc..
On another note.. Our OEM shocks are limited in terms of set-up. We have clickers (neddle and seat valves) that are set on a certain thread pitch needle angle. Its a very dificult process to change these aspects, and hence running very "light" fluids in a bike shop will generally destroy performance.
With the upper level car shocks, I'm quite sure all these aspects are tunable.. In which case you can easily alter fluid weight to take advantage of any tunning advantages of a light fluid.
This has become quite the string..
Regards,
Jer
Dude your the man.. That is some serious Fire power your throwing at the shock..
As for the water how do you deal with the fluid wanting to boil? I suspose if you run a high enough gas pressure..
I think we need to evaluate fluids on several criteria.
-Performance.
-Life
-Fade resistance
-Addtive package and how that relates to wear, seals, etc..
On another note.. Our OEM shocks are limited in terms of set-up. We have clickers (neddle and seat valves) that are set on a certain thread pitch needle angle. Its a very dificult process to change these aspects, and hence running very "light" fluids in a bike shop will generally destroy performance.
With the upper level car shocks, I'm quite sure all these aspects are tunable.. In which case you can easily alter fluid weight to take advantage of any tunning advantages of a light fluid.
This has become quite the string..
Regards,
Jer
Harry Reed
Member
- Oct 1, 2001
- 20
- 0
Jer,
You a right. I don't think running such a light fluid in a stock damper would be the best thing to do. Now if you are using a Ohlins or White power, it could be done.
Like I said before, the maintainance will be increased. About every two weeks. Under the pressure we run, the water will never boil. I have a set of shocks that have about, 3,000 miles on the same seals with no leaking.
By the way I am not suggesting that anyone do this, just letting people know that there are hundreds of way's to build shocks, and they are all good.
If there was only one way to do this, then we would all be doing it !
You a right. I don't think running such a light fluid in a stock damper would be the best thing to do. Now if you are using a Ohlins or White power, it could be done.
Like I said before, the maintainance will be increased. About every two weeks. Under the pressure we run, the water will never boil. I have a set of shocks that have about, 3,000 miles on the same seals with no leaking.
By the way I am not suggesting that anyone do this, just letting people know that there are hundreds of way's to build shocks, and they are all good.
If there was only one way to do this, then we would all be doing it !
Jeremy Wilkey
Owner, MX-Tech
- Jan 28, 2000
- 1,453
- 0
Dooh.. I just read some of the posts.. Pay attention Jer... I got so caught up in the idea, I did'nt finish reading the posts.. Sorry for the redudency..
As far as the posiblites yeah, there are some good ones... And some bad ones..
Regards,
Jer
As far as the posiblites yeah, there are some good ones... And some bad ones..
Regards,
Jer
Harry Reed
Member
- Oct 1, 2001
- 20
- 0
Sage,
Thanks for the offer. I have maxima, redline and silkolene on hand. I will get some mobil1 atf, and some mobil velocite. I am also hoping for some from Jeremy. Will also run the water for comparison.
Thats seven differant fluids,Will keep me busy for awhile.
Sage, why don't you send me an e mail, or pm. I am from bend, raced all the omra cross country stuff for years.
I will post my shop info if it ok with Jeremy.
Thanks for the offer. I have maxima, redline and silkolene on hand. I will get some mobil1 atf, and some mobil velocite. I am also hoping for some from Jeremy. Will also run the water for comparison.
Thats seven differant fluids,Will keep me busy for awhile.
Sage, why don't you send me an e mail, or pm. I am from bend, raced all the omra cross country stuff for years.
I will post my shop info if it ok with Jeremy.
www.robots.net/article/266.html
this page has a link to a research paper by Perdue University on using water as a hydraulic fluid
this page has a link to a research paper by Perdue University on using water as a hydraulic fluid
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