Terrorism

[MoO_coW]

Joe Average....if you are an atheist, then you don't have to worry about much then. When you die you will just be dust. No problems. Why do you even concern yourself with such stuff...you have nothing to live,or die, for.

[added]Look at it for a second, he is saying that in reality there is nothing holding him back from doing anything he wants, an athiest doesnt have a code of ethics he has to follow, not saying they dont follow a code of ethics because that would be crazy, but what jaybird is saying is logically correct if you look at it, so before you go and call someone an idiot maybe you should logically read up on what was really said. [/added]


What JayBird meant I think was that if you believe in no creator than you don't have anything to look forward to after you die, and in return that is what I think he meant by he doesn't have a reason to live, you have nothing that gives you a real reason to live, Like XR said, somethings can take a creators place but it really still isn't the same and its subject to the persons own life. Look at how it was worded and please don't start a flame war over this, because I cant voice my opinion and I REALLY want to...but owell. I guess I'm aloud to do this? If you want a good spirituality forum go to www.mauisun.org Its a nice family atmosphere with many, many different opinions, plus alot of other cool forums. I respect everyone's opinion, I can think its totally ridiculous and crazy, but I still respect it.

 

[XRpredator]

Originally posted by MoO_coW
. . . I respect everyone's opinion, I can think its totally ridiculous and crazy, but I still respect it.

"From the mouths of babes . . ."

 

[motometal]

This is ugly. Jaybird, KLX, I think you both pushed it a little too far. But that's ok, we all do that occasionally.

Let's face it, religion is just a tough topic to get into on here, and it's best to avoid it. Religion/faith means different things to different people, and you are only right or wrong from your own perspective.

Not to say that terrorism in the name of alah (or any god for that matter) isn't wrong, it's just that in their perspective it's right, and there isn't a thing we can do, other than a big shoe up their butt, to convince them otherwise.

Very big shoe.

And no, nukes (or a-bombs, or whatever you call them) aren't cool...these days, they are more of a tool to threaten than to actually use in a practical manner. A nice big fuel-air bomb or two leaves a lot less radiation floating around in an atmosphere that we all share.

 

[MoO_coW]

Ok...Im not sure exactly what that is suppose to meen but just because I dont believe something doesnt mean I dont respect it. For example,I think budha is totally wacked out and crazy but I still respect anyone that devotes there life to it and I dont go around telling people I know that are Budha the're going to burn in hell and there crazy, And I enjoy having intelligent conversations with people with different beliefes. If you dont like what I said I really dont care because I would rather not argue like a little kid.

 

[JPIVEY]

Moo, He was commenting on your insight, it's a good thing

 

[MoO_coW]

Like I said, im not totally sure how he meant it but the ones I have seen are like oxi-morons basically...and I can see where he is comming from and just wanted to clear it up.

 

[CPT Jack]

LT, Jaybird started it and I agree with Pat Burroughs' statement completely. I was referring to JoeAvg & Jaybird's original statments. Somehow, b/w when I started typing & when I finally hit submit, the thread doubled in size (that's how lightning fast I am). Regarding KLX, I was about to defend JoeAvg just like he did. His statement ... Yeah, I left a little room for dramatic interpretation - and yes, he's guilty of that as PB noted, but he's just making a point. My bottom line feeling is this: I think it's important to accept, as a type of "ground rule", that it's ok to attack someone's opinion (what they say) in a discussion, but it's not ok to attack the person. That's where I'm coming from here.

OK, everyone relax, we're all friends here.

Regarding religion.... hmmm, I love a good steak!:)
I appreciate that you're a smart guy and that you have your convictions and I respect that -no problems here. But my point is that no one here in this forum has the right to try to take the moral high-ground over anyone else here because everyone has their own beliefs/level of confusion. IOW, who is correct? .... exactly.

FYI,
I wrote "don't get me started" for two reasons:
1) It is generally considered a basd idea to discuss religion or politics - b/c, of course, it more than likely ends badly.

2) I was tired of typing.

Not that I'm backpedalling but it's just tooooo long of a discussion. We're talking hours of typing and unfortuneately I'm not too PC, so I have to work pretty hard choosing my words as not to overly offend the masses.

Luv ya;)

 

[Pat Burroughs]

Originally posted by motometal
Let's face it, religion is just a tough topic to get into on here, and it's best to avoid it. Religion/faith means different things to different people, and you are only right or wrong from your own perspective.

Extremely well-said, I couldn't have penned (keyed?) it better myself.

It's a deeply personal issue that shouldn't leave your own inner self. It's part of why doing what these Islamic fundamentalists did in the name of religion is horribly wrong. It's a case of "our god is better than your god" gone terribly awry. And that's a discussion - and further - a contest, that can never be settled.

 

[justql]

I really like my Gas Gas.:)

 

[JPIVEY]

Than there's no need to recommend Beano Beano, I take it ? :eek:

 

[Jaybird]

Like I have told my wife, the recent events have shaken me like I've never been shaken before. I can't quite explain it to anyone who isn't feeling what I am in my gut. I have experienced the gammit of emotions the past few days.
I have been through disbelief, fear, anger, sorrow, and rage. I have cried like a baby and felt sadness I've never felt before. I've had sympathy as well as hatred for people I don't know. As a person who remembers well the nightly body count on the news(for how many years?10-12?), my emotions are again being taxed to say the least.

That being said....
Joe, I simply think that your humanitarian concerns are quite commendable. I understand them. But...we cannot comprehend how this current enemy thinks. If you say you can, you would be wrong. These folks are on a different wave length. What I fear you don't understand is that all of fundamentalist Islam advocates the actions of the hijackers. And that is not one small group of people. It is not a rouge band of thugs as you may imagine. These 'groups' are state sponsored devices of destruction. Meaning there are countries not only harboring them, but aiding, funding, and championing their effort. We already know this to be true of many mid-east countries because of past demands that were ignored. This is not the first time we have been attacked by terrorism. And if we don't act, and act with full force and vengence, we will continue to suffer the consequences of false hope.
I'm just as appauled by human suffering as you are. This I'm sure of.
Stop and think of what all has been sacrificed in past years by YOUR forefathers. Many have made the ultimate sacrifice in order for YOU to enjoy the freedoms that we Americans share. For us to have achieved the status that we have in such an incredibly short time, in part, is due to our faith.
Faith is a safe haven for us. No matter where your faith lies, one needs it. Our country was built on faith. Yes, our forefathers were faithful to their God. They fought and died for the right to worship their God in any fashion they see fit, without the fear of government intervention or persecusion.
I did not intend to make this a religeous debate, but rather a debate on faith.
Faith is what holds us together, without it, I feel we don't have much.
Although some would see my comments as a religeous fanatasism, It's far from it. I did not, nor do I intend to bring up any religeous doctrine here. But to be quite honest I do have a problem with people who call themselves "athiest". I can't comprehend the notion other than think it has to do more with confusion, than a full disbelief of any sort of higher power than ourselves.
You as an American have gained the right to have your belief, or lack of it for that matter. And it is a direct result of people being in a similar situation to where our country is now and them making decisions that would ultimately effect the world forever. But I also reserve the right to speak out against doctrine that I see as inappropriate/misguided at best.

KLX4spokes....Explain to me how I showed myself to be a religeous fanatic.
And if you do convince me that there was fanatisism, where are the similaraties to the WTC bombers? You chose to equate me with the ones who I have the utmost apathy and hatred for, and I object highly.

BTW, it takes much more conviction to stand up and proclaim faith to something, than to shout the lack of it. Of that I am also certain. I suggest you prioratize.

 

[CPT Jack]

<sigh>

Gee, people are gonna' die... .....how about a dose of realism on the other side of the equation?

Please clarify your intent. I still wear the crossed rifles. What are you trying to tell me that you think I don't know?

maybe I'm not making proper use of emoticons....

When I say...
"Is anyone else out there thinking about these things? ", I'm genuinely trying to get people's thoughts. I'm not trying to suggest that I'm the only one thinking about these things and that everyone else is stupid. k?

That said, when people post "we should nuke 'em", I know(in the majority of cases) that they're venting out of frustration and anger - (fully entitled). But what I want to know is what they really think after the rage fades and the intellect kicks in, and with little exception, there hasn't been much realistic discourse on the matter. Maybe it's too early for that. But if not, let me challenge this forum once again to provide input.

For example, a good place to begin might be to suggest that maybe the paradigm for our goals should be "What is best for this country" as opposed to a more one-dimesional ground/target objective. Any thoughts?

 

[longtime]

Jack -- simple answer to the main question you've posited:

What I'm trying to tell you is that your original post -- of the "how many lives", "how much blood", "are we really willing to sacrifice" variety, missed a fundamental point -- the blood's already spillin'. People already diein'. Remember WWII? Sometimes you do have to have courage, resolve, and yes, sacrifice, to stop a greater evil. Now is a prototypical example.

I heard a powerful analogy today. That this is not one religion v. another. Or one race v. another. It's barbarians versus the civilized world. Now, do we want our world to be one in which anyone with an axe to grind can kill tens of thousands of people with impugnity? And if not, are we willing to try a new, more painful tact to stop that? No guarantees? Seeing as we've tried everything from minor capitulations, to diplomacy, to bribery, to etc, etc, etc?

I disagree with your assertion that there's no winning, just a degree of losing. We've already lost much. :( But -- we can win the fundamental fight between reason, freedom, and good ---- and evil. At least this evil. I guess it's semantics, but in my mind, and those of the survivors I know, we "won" WWII. Because we stopped a world wide march towards a very bad thing.

 

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by LongTime
It's barbarians versus the civilized world

Precisely what the Romans thought!!!! They lost ;)

Just recently learned that the latin root for "barbarian" was literally "those who speek a foreign language".

Have fun on the G/G

 

[Rogue]

Originally posted by XRpredator
Woods-

I'd just as soon not see any nukes either. We've got lots of other neat toys that'll do a plenty good job.

That is what the Soviet Union thought. It was thier Vietnam. Do we want another? Or should we end this in less than 2 hours with almost no expendatures of American lives or money?

 

[longtime]

Tony -- I am very familiar with the fall of the Roman empire. And with the genesis of the word "barbarians." The analogy fits. That they lost, well . . . .

Are you familiar with the Visigoths? Vandals? etc.? The Romans did indeed mean "speakers of a foreign tongue". It is those of us who followed who ascribed a normative (perjorative) meaning to the term "barbarian," based upon what the tribes subsequently did. :scream: And here, like there, it is the current meaning of "barbarian" that is the important one.

btw -- please elaborate on the point -- you're not saying that our current enemies are not barbarians (current usage), are you?

 

[CPT Jack]

know your enemy

I know, we "won" WWII. Because we stopped a world wide march towards a very bad thing.

agreed on that point, but this situation doesn't compare to WWII in any way that I can see, and not much with the Gulf War either. I understand the Good vs. Evil but that's an abstract level and I want to explore the realities. I would like to try to gain insight toward the road ahead and some of the tactical considerations:

-this "war" has no definitive end point - must clarify objective state
-no geographical boundries - political and tactical considerations
-the enemy is among us - they and their sympathizers have infiltrated our borders and our allies borders
-rules of war from the enemy perspective are incomprehensible - much like Japanese WWII
-no defined limit to who is considered a "fair game" enemy - religious, social, and political quagmires - very difficult w/o turning additional populace militant
- no specific "head of state" - multi-factional, multi-headed - who could represent "surrender acceptance"
- there is no surrender/treaty option - full annihilation loses world support

-We do not know our enemy
their values system
why do they fight/their conditions for peace
the goals of their support base (gen pop.) vs. their leaders agendas
they have little to live for, much to die for - can we change this?
experienced, battle hardened
extremely dedicated - brass balls
low support requirements
low cost
used to much lower "comfort level"
independent "guerilla" style vs. more static Soviet style
we greatly underestimate them and their determination - they've defeated the British, Russia undermanned and outgunned.

U.S. Military
Hi-tech advantages
Well equiped
Costly, operationally speaking
professional army, not as hardened/experienced
high support requirements
used to higher comfort level
individual soldier has much more to live for - less desperate
non-fanatical

How do they fight
- Afghanistan as a fighting environment - US has no experience
- current weapons systems?
- ground to air capabilities?
- mountain terrain = highly defensible, special vulnerabilities to attackers
- heavily mined
- special tactics - Choppers extremely vulnerable, unique mountain tactics
- low-tech advantages
- our reliance on high tech can fail us
- nearly bomb-proof fortifications
- Stingers from above Chopper ceiling
- suicide bomber/sabatuer
- acts of terror
- intel thru torture

How do we fight this enemy?
- deny supply?
- mine routes?
- compartmentalize
- sattelite imagery/spc ops
- black ops/psyops?
- choose fights carefully - stage/wait for advantageous opportunities
- is armor effective?
- what lessons can we take from the Russians

What goals can we reasonably attain in what time frame?
What strengths can we employ?
- muti-national ops - get other countries involved so they won't abandon
support for your goals
- split factions to turn against each other?
- Hearts & Minds - any concievable angles?

What weakness will impede our goals: impatience, arrogance, friendly body count, ineffective policy.

That's just off the top of my head and is only a military perspective centered around Afghanistan. In the end, if we ever want this to end, we need to understand them. To get in their collective head, we could look at our Foreign Policy over the last 30 years from the Palestinian perspective and try to realize why we're so hated and what we have to do to address that. Perhaps part of our end goal should be to get back on higher moral ground.

When we deployed to the Gulf, you may recall a lot of people who weren't giving us too good of odds being that the Iraqi Army was so much more battle hardened and experienced (The elite Republican Guard) - fighting in their backyard, etc. I laughed at that idea and told them "no, I can guarantee you we're gonna rip them a new one." I understood the type of battle we were going into, our advantages, and our superior capabilities. I almost let other people talk me into thinking I was underestimating the enemy. But I knew most these people didn't want to fight us - they were scared, starving, and put there under threat of death. I felt sorry for them. They were trapped b/w a rock and an a-hole - and no one wanted to die for him. This is a much different situation and a much different enemy.

The good news is that right now we have the world behind us - which we need to exploit and lock into a physical commitment - a powerful alliance. This is our base of strength.

The bad news is that I don't believe there's any way we're going to waltz thru Afghanistan like we did Iraq - if that's what it comes to.

Now what do you think?

 

[motometal]

Very, very good post, I'll be saving that one or sending thru the printer. It's always best to consider all angles of a situation.

Also, the more we rely on a ground mission, the uglier it will be. Conversely, you could wipe a whole country off the map, and five minutes later the bad guys come crawling out of a cave some where and go right back to business as usual. There is no easy answer.

 

[XRpredator]

Originally posted by MoO_coW
Ok...Im not sure exactly what that is suppose to meen . . .

It means you show great insight for someone so young.

No offense meant.:)

 

[MoO_coW]

Ahhh, thanks XR :)

 

[Okiewan]

KLX4smoke, Mr. Rogers and all the others with a deeper understanding:

You are such a very compassionate, caring person. I think you should just go over there and have a good heart-to-heart with ole' Bin. Explain to him that we are really disappointed with his actions this week. Explain to him that we want to work this out without further violence. He’ll understand that. We know they are loving people who can be misunderstood sometimes. All those people that were killed is unfortunate, but we are big enough to maintain our belief that all people are inherently good. We are big enough to forgive. And those silly buildings…no biggie. When he says that everything will be good when the world is controlled by his faith, tell him we can work on that. Surely we can compromise.

Let him know that if he just comes forward and says he's sorry, we'll all hug and make up. We all know that these terrorists are just searching for a way to make us understand they are unhappy. We are big enough to forgive our fellow humans their mistakes!

While you’re there, stop over and speak with the Taliban as well. I think if you are allowed to get the truth to them about us, they too will see the beautiful light. They will feel bad for protecting Mr. Laden and his buddies; feeding them, hiding them, funding them, refusing to produce them. Just tell them we understand that people can make boo-boos. Hold out your hand, put a loving caring smile on your face, they’ll feel the warmth.

Once you’ve brought the love to them, pop on over to Iraq. Poor Sadam is a soul in need of the love too. It’s all about working together has humans to make the world a better place. We can do it, I know we can! Take some records and your guitar. Sit around a fire and sing some good ole folk tunes about love and brotherhood. A few bars of “Won’t you be my neighbor” will go far! Paint a flower on your cheek. How could they not see the error of their ways? No one has ever taken the time to really listen them, that’s all.

Yes, it can be a beautiful world.

 

[OZ_dirtrider]

Well said Capt Jack!

Those who want to drop the bomb or a few into Afganistian, have you ever thought about the nuclear fallout and where it would spread, let alone the damage to the atmosphere? The winds could blow it to China or Russia, anywhere. These countries would just likely retaliate just because of this reason - then no one wins and the terrorist do!

Whats important here is to find where the hatred stems from. Yes, go after the murderous and pathetic human beings who done this and eradicate them. But, the US government must look at it's Foreign policies and it's stance in the middle east - you cannot take side's or sit on your hands whilst the Israeli's march out the Palestines using force yet dodge the issue of stopping the Israeli's.
If anyone out there thinks l'm anti-semetic, l'm half Jew, my great grand-parents died in the death camp of Belzac and l have never forgotten that. Yet, l can say what the Israeli's are doing to the Palestinian is driving them out of a country which they had occupied until 1958, I would have thought that the Israelites should know better as they are now the aggressor.

When the word 'WAR' was mentioned, my dad rolled his eyes and shook in disbelief as he's seen the tragedies of war first hand and thought that we as a race should be able to solve our problems without the necessity of killing humanity just in the name of war.

Blowing up the bin Laden and his cohorts or even the countries that habour them will help ease the pain but you cannot stop an idealogy, how many other bin Laden's are out there? How many would use this to further their cause.
What is needed is make the people who live in terriost infested haven's turn against the terrorist idealogy - make them unpopular within their own people.

There is no easy way out here, it needs to be carefully planned and measured for to act hesitately would result in America coming down to the terrorist's level - and thats not what the world wants America to do but what the terrorist and Hussien wants!!!


J :(

 

[Jaybird]

Why do I get this strange feeling that those who are trying to rationalize this thing are kids that have never experienced any adversity whatsoever?

Y'all bring up some good points of discussion, but that's about it.

See we've been thinking too much. Many of you have spent way too much time on the soccer field. And not enough time anylizing historic events. Many of you don't realise that kids raised in these barbaric (yes that is a proper term, don't parse words with me) have no idea of anything accept their fundamintilist/radical teachings. Math, History, Grammer, Geography, etc....none of these are even attempted to be explored during any part of these kids lives. They are only taught from the Koran. The Koran in itself is probably not a bad thing, but they too have nit-witted mumbskulls who try to interpret those teaching to fit their own agenda. Thats all these kids see, period. Once they are old enough to carry and fire a weapon, they have no other goals or objectives in their lives, save for the destruction of the capitalistic and free societys. They are taught from birth to hate us, and they are quite good at it. You all seem to think that there is no country to answer or to surrender. You are quite incorrect on that. Most every terrorist attack in modern times has been attributed to a fundamintalist faction that is not only advocated by one Government or state, but by many like thinking states.

I already know why our American kids are misguided. It's been apparent that such idiocy has been spreading to our children since the 60's. I'm sorry...I'm not much one on PC and I have to say that I am not pulling punches here...I mean IDIOT when I say it. Not a very kind thing to say, huh? Too bad, get used to it, because you are either on the boat or sinking. I suggest you get on board quick.

What many of you kids fail to realise is this....your number is comming up. What, you say? I mean that your draft number WILL be comming up shortly. You will have to decide at that point if you want to fight for the freedoms of future generations or if you want to continue to rationalise irrational acts.
It's amazing and commendable that our younger generation does ask questions, but it's just as amazing at how easily you can be swayed by the hollow words of a few idiots.

Okie seemed to sum up beautifully my point. Y'all are misguided, and of that I have no doubt. It's not your fault, but your parents and your liberal educators fault. Perhaps it's all of our fault. None the less, it is a fault and you will have to deal with what reality throws you, not some idealistic pipe dream that some flower waving idealist offers.

I feel the need to address you, Oz_dirtrider....and your country is now on board with us totally. This is great news to free people. I suggest you too get on board and defend your country to the fullest. Stop questioning and using rational....we are not dealing with rational thought here.
AND BTW.... Brass Balls???? OMG...I've not seen one heroic act from any of these madmen we are encountering. How dare you give them the credence of having any guts at all! They are gutless and cold hearted killers with no reguard for human suffering. They are far from having brass balls, my good friend. They are the apitimy of cowardice! As far as Palistine is concerned, they have been given every opportunity for peace and they have declined each and every offer. Arafat was offered everythng but the keys to Jerusalem, yet he continues to advocate violent, senseless acts.
I could pick apart just about everything you mentioned, but it would take way too much time. Get your facts straight before applying ideology to them.

 

[KLX4smoke]

KLX4smoke, Mr. Rogers and all the others with a deeper understanding:

Why would Okiewan direct this rant at me? I don't recall saying anything about not retaliating. :think

 

[Pat Burroughs]

No one has suggested that the perpetrators of this attack - and those who facilitate them - should not be dealt with/eradicated.

What (I think) they're saying is our approach needs to be measured, carefully considered, and completely thought-through. We do need to be rational, otherwise we'll resemble the barbaric madmen that have committed this atrocity.

Does this mean their collective butts are not in a sling? Of course not. Does this mean we need to be smart in our attack? Absolutely yes.