The Price of Oil/Gas and why

fatcat216

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Vic I find your comments and your link pretty interesting. With due respect to Adam Smith, the Invisible Hand can be quite brutal, not only to the financiers, but to the common folk. Unregulated- the Invisible Hand can bring us economies of scale that result in ruthless monopolies, The Great Depression, The dust Bowl, flight of industries in search of cheap labor leaving a country with no manufacturing base and only two industries- paper pushers and house builders.
The invisible hand brings us doctors who sell expensive medical procedures rather than wellness.

Unregulated, we have short selling that- like unregulated purchasing of commodities futures -is mere gambling rather than investment. It is not ownership in an economy. Shorting stock in some industries is not causing a problem, and yet you are angry about it?? This is free enterprise at its finest under your Adam Smith world. Likewise unfettered investment in derivatives and stock by pension funds, the breakdown of visible industry lines between finance and insurance that has resulted in this calamity-?? More Adam Smith.

It is a fact that all institutions- whether it is baseball, finance, providing healthcare, building roads, or fighting wars -require rules of engagement. Those rules are "government". If you don't like the rules, work to change them. Otherwise- special interests ie. the people who work in those industries, are going to seek rules in ways they believe to be favorable to themselves. They will claim "risk" & "the invisible hand of the marketplace" and "self regulation" will prevent them from bad decisions. Hmmm. I think that has not happened here.

It's a fact that regulations chase the marketplace, rather than precede it. Yes, innovations occur that require different oversight, different rules. Some quick examples that come to mind- tax related- read about any of the BIG FIVE and their history in the last fifteen or 30 years- they provide new tax products that later are declared illegal. Sometimes legislatively, sometimes prosecutorily by your friends the IRS. Every major firm has been involved in this in some fashion. ...or... in the case the shorting of stock, or manipulation of the marketplace by commodities futures brokers- regulations that are going to come into line that require more order to the market place- investors who are investors rather than gamblers... stability. Those regulations will be loosened if the flow of money is stifed to the point innovation is lacking or an industry needs greater capital.

What we are looking for is order in our society-, confidence that it will go on. Rules, structures, regulations... GOVERNMENT... can impose those rules for protection of the greater good. That is not a bad thing, necessarily.

The invisible hand brought us three automanufacturers who put out SUV after SUV. Somebody was buying them, were they not?? While I was researching electric motorcycles and mopeds, knowing the day would come, the market was demanding more 10 mpg vehicles. Governments, as well as private investors, have the ability to invest in ideas that the short sighted supply and demand cannot and will not ask for "yet".

Governments can build roads, schools, can provide dollars for research. Private investors can too....but... many a good "cure" is not on the horizon because it is more profitable to treat the symptoms.

The rag against government is silly and naive. We require governments, we require rules of engagement. We require order.

What you need to ask yourself is what quality of individual do you want making those rules? How involved will you become in learning about these complex issues rather than relying on knee jerk reactions. (Vic this rant isn't directed at you, just the universe at large.)

Sorry this isn't written better everyone. I honestly have a lot to say on this topic, but undoubtedly it will fall on deaf ears. No one wants to get involved. No one wants to try to understand complex issues. We're spoon fed crap by every news organization in the US. (This latest financial crisis may be the first objective, thoughtful reporting I've seen in the last year.)

You all need to take responsibility with your consumer choices and your election choices and most of all, by educating yourselves on what these things are really about and what you want the world to look like. No bogey man and 3 trillion dollar wars (destabilizing a whole region and bankrupting our pocketbooks) to comfort yourself so you don't have to learn about hard topics, write a thoughtful letter, go to a town hall meeting, hold your congressman and senator responsible. Hate and blame is easy. Thoughtful participation is not.

If you don't get involved in the governing process you are just going to get more crap. Plain and simple.
 
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fatcat216

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Government Brought me:

clean air, drinkable water, protection from other pollutants, national parks, interstate highways, public education, fire protection, police protection, (international and local), university education, social security, medicare/medicaid (yes, I'm proud that we have some form of protection for those in need in our society), laws which require a minimal level of safety in products...
a federal reserve (oil), dialogues and institutions for cooperative work between countries, which presumably has cut down on warring.

You'd give all that up Jay?? And let the captains of industry have a go at it?

hmmm. I wonder if you really would.
 

Jaybird

Apprentice Goon
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Pick just one of the things that you claim gov has brought you and then show me how the gov does a better job than private industry in ANY of them.

Public education? Have you got kids in public schools?
Social security? Yeah, what a great bunch of return that investment is. Please....
Protection from pollutants? Like the dreaded Co2?

I'm sorry, but you have given many fine examples of government blunders.
 

fatcat216

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Yes I have children in public school. Maybe things are different here- because the doctors and lawyers kids all go to public schools. Presumably, under your test of adequacy and what is good for society, these people would buy their way out of a horrible system. The fact is, we have exceptional education here.

As to clean water, clean everything? With 1305 superfund cleanup sites, you'd leave it to the society to police itself? Why not take away the speed limit to Jay, why not have everyone be responsible for their own fires? Why have any laws at all?

Your argument is not sound. Sorry.
 

fatcat216

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as to social security- yeah. I can see why you'd want to have everyone get a great return on investment with higher yields, what with the way the stock market and banking is. Sure- go ahead, privatize. I can see after the last two weeks why that is such a marvelous idea.
 

Vic

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It's interesting that you think the "invisible hand" creates those problems. I especially like your last example. I'm sure you've heard of Medicare. Maybe you've not had the experience of watching doctors milking it for everything it's worth while offering false hope.

I do think that government has it's place. The problem is, it wants every place.
 

Vic

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fatcat216 said:
Sure- go ahead, privatize. I can see after the last two weeks why that is such a marvelous idea.

Talk about short sighted and knee-jerk.
 

fatcat216

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fatcat216

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Because I was unfortunate enough to be born to a mother who only worked in a factory, and suffered serious challenges with mental illness- Medicaid fixed my broken elbow when I was an 18 year old with no insurance who fell on a bicycle. My family doctor didn't take medicaid and I worked long and hard to pay his portion.

Next.
 

fatcat216

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Vic- you truly believe the 20s stock market crash and Great Depression was caused by Government??
 

Vic

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Why don't we let individuals decide what's best for them. I think that's what's called "freedom".
 

fatcat216

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So- no rules, no laws?
 

Vic

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That is unfortunate. I suppose you would have liked me to pay for it.
 

fatcat216

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I think you did. And thank you.
 

Vic

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fatcat216 said:
So- no rules, no laws?

Less rules, less laws. MORE personal accountability.
 

fatcat216

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and I've gone on throughout my adult life to pay for others, and to help educate children in my community to a standard that they can contribute in positive ways throughout their lives.
 

fatcat216

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Vic said:
Less rules, less laws. MORE personal accountability.

Doesn't sound like we disagree at all.

And when personal accountability fails? Who would you have hold that person or institution (corporation or otherwise) accountable?
 

Vic

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fatcat216 said:
Vic- you truly believe the 20s stock market crash and Great Depression was caused by Government??

No question government contributed to the severity.

You sat through a lot of economics lectures in college, didn't you?
 

Vic

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fatcat216 said:
I think you did. And thank you.

Didn't you already say you paid for it?
 

fatcat216

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Vic said:
No question government contributed to the severity.

You sat through a lot of economics lectures in college, didn't you?

Vic, please explain in what ways you believe government contributed to the severity of the problem.

As to you second comment, if you are "calling me stupid" please, if makes you feel better, go ahead call me stupid, or lazy or what have you. But, it seems it would serve you much better to explain to me your thoughts on why you believe the severity was made worse, than to call me stupid.

I'm listening either way.
 

Vic

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fatcat216 said:
and I've gone on throughout my adult life to pay for others, and to help educate children in my community to a standard that they can contribute in positive ways throughout their lives.

So have I. And I could have done it better and more efficiently if I had the dollars that politicians have stolen from me to pay for your vote.
 

fatcat216

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Vic said:
Didn't you already say you paid for it?

Thanks to a receptionist/intake person at the hospital- because I certainly didn't know anything about these things at that age, nor was brought up to accept those things- I'm afraid the hospital and surgeons and anaesthesia were paid for by your tax dollars. My family doctor portion was paid for my my waitress dollars.

No physical therapy.

And you can cringe, but honestly, everytime any of us uses insurance, you pay through higher premiums (directly or indirectly through your employer.)

The only way any of us DOES NOT pay for the other guys use of the system is if NONE of us are insured- publicly or privately- whether it be health, auto or house. You'll be paying for Hurricanes Katrina, Ike, etc. and through higher premiums for the next two decades, I'm afraid.
 
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Vic

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I wasn't calling you anything. But after that post, I will now say that you are silly. I don't really see how it serves me in any way to explain anything to you.

I'm going to go about my life, now. If it makes you feel better to go on, go ahead.
 

fatcat216

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Dec 16, 2007
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I'm sorry I've offended you by whatever I said that is silly. I honestly wanted to understand and keep from attacks on character. I truly wanted to hear your side, because I welcome hearing others opinions, especially people who are respected by others and whose opinions are sought by others.

Have a great day. Thanks for your input.
 

fatcat216

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Dec 16, 2007
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It serves you, because, if you can persuade me- I vote, I campaign, I write letters to politicians, I participate with others and share ideas like these... I participate in the process helping to make rules.....

So, I guess we both lose.
 
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