The public's return to 2 strokes

[julien_d]

Enough with the luddites. If I can't respond to this with real information without having my post deleted you could at least stop being provocative.

haha. Good luck with that. This is why I wished for an ignore function on these forums.

You'd think we could have a mod for the 2t forum who wants to do something other than start fights with 2t fans. Oh well. Some people just have nothing better to do with their time :nener:.

J.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

If they can be made to be more fuel efficient, cleaner, AND more powerful than their 4 stroke counterparts, it is an exciting prospect all around. A Toyota 2t Inline 6 pushing more HP than a chevy 454?! :yikes:

Neat.

While I think this stuff bodes well for small scale dirt bike or outboard production I wouldn't get my hopes up too much beyond that. There was a vast sum of money spent on two-stroke R&D in the automotive industry during the 1990s including licensing of the very trick Orbital 2t technology by both Ford and GM. Nothing came from it unfortunately due in part to the incredibly strict C.A.F.E , EPA and Euro requirements that automakers have to meet.

If you want a two-stroke car I think you'll need to dig up an old Saab or one of those weird East German Trabant compacts. :)

 

[_JOE_]

For the record, you can get a Toyota I6 to make more HP than a 454 fairly easily.

 

[SS109]

For the record, you can get a Toyota I6 to make more HP than a stock 454 fairly easily.

With that little correction, I agree. :nod:

 

[julien_d]

With that little correction, I agree. :nod:

Exactly what I was thinkin. Put a little effort into that 454 though, and good luck with the I6!

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

Just put a jet engine in it and be done. What do you mean you can not drive it on the street, it will go over 300mph, and keep tail gaters back a ways! I cannot imagine what that grade of kerosene costs though? Maybe menards carries it, in 5 gallon containers from Canada? Is there anywhere to get accurate sales of Japanese motorcycles in the U.S.A.? Vintage Bob

 

[_JOE_]

Exactly what I was thinkin. Put a little effort into that 454 though, and good luck with the I6!

It'd be hard for a 454 in any trim to hang with a built Toyota 2JZ(3 litre). 600+ RWHP is easily had with mostly stock internals in a 2JZ, hence the crazy resale value of the Supra. It's not all about the displacement......

 

[Tom68]

It'd be hard for a 454 in any trim to hang with a built Toyota 2JZ(3 litre). 600+ RWHP is easily had with mostly stock internals in a 2JZ, hence the crazy resale value of the Supra. It's not all about the displacement......

Getting off the track a bit.
HP is not all about displacement but enjoyable motoring is.

KDX250 bored 72mm, XR500 bored 91mm, IT425

 

[_JOE_]

Aww c'mon, what fun would the forum be if we didn't get all off-topic all the time?

The difference between the old technology in a 454 and the modern technology in the DOHC I6 is kinda like the 2t vs 4t thing. A pointless arguement. It doesn't make a damned bit of difference as long as we're all having fun, right?

 

[julien_d]

It's 2 stroke tech talk. I'm goin with it. Regardless of wether I'm a luddite or not, I see 2t technology progressing pretty rapidly in prototypes and research models. There is simply too much interest in 2t development right now for it to disappear any time in the near future. On the other hand, 4t advancements have not been very impressive the past few years. More of the same. Throw in a battery and call it a hybrid, or sacrifice some reliability for some extra performance. Make those valves pump @ 14k rpm... OUCH! :yikes:

The writing seems to be on the wall. Perhaps the die hard 4t proponents are actually the luddites here?? I'm not the one opposing this change.. . :nod:

 

[_JOE_]

Lol, luddites rejoice..........

Julien, have you seen the new YZ450?

 

[Joburble]

I must admit that YZ450 sure does look pretty, but I would rather have a CR500 or a KTM300EXC. I guess if there are punters out there willing to spend big dollars on the bike and then on maintenance they will keep making them high stress 4 strokes. As for me I guess I was just spoiled by riding them big bore (450+) 2 strokes, so easy to ride in the slow stuff and tear your arms off if you ask them too, just delightful.

I have a question for the modern 4t lovers, have you ever ridden a big bore mx or enduro 2 stroke to actually base your bias to 4 strokes on? I am sure that the moderators have but anyone else?

 

[_JOE_]

I have no bias to engine design. I think both have alot of strong points and they both recieve alot of criticism that's a bit exaggerated. I've not ridden a 300 smoker yet, although I would love to. A 500 is simply too dangerous for someone who tends to get a bit ham-fisted in the woods after a couple hours of tight, hilly trails like myself. For me, a 250 2 stroke is more than enough power to put a huge smile on your face when you crank it up or some big ol' bruises on your body if you get carried away. The biggest difference with 4 strokes is that they are very EASY to ride, even more so as you get tired and sloppy. They are not lazy, though the rider can ride it lazily. How many of the hardcore 2 stroke guys have any significant seat time on a 4 stroke? Alot of the 4 stroke guys came from 2 strokes. I'm highly supportive of new 2 stroke development and definately plan on buying a 2 stroke for my next bike. Though the 250f is a fantastic bike and an absolute joy to ride but it's a bit out of my budget. I will probly keep it for a track bike and buy and older 125(144) or 200 2 stroke as my woods/play bike. 2 strokes are great in thier own way, it's thier riders who get so anti thumper that bother me.

 

[julien_d]

I've got plenty of seat time on 4t's, both older and newer. The 250f's I have ridden I found to be quite boring, although the suspension on the Suzuki was top notch. The yz450f I have ridden was quite a nice bike, but to heavy feeling for me to be comfortable on it in the woods. I grew up riding mostly XR's, and the occasional 2t. Back then I preferred the 4t, mostly because the 2t's I rode scared the bejesus outta me. Those old XR's would just run and run forever too, so that was a plus.


Oh yeah, on the new yz.. Perhaps I should edit my rant post to include, "lets turn the cylinder around backwards and call it a "revolutionary new design". HA!!

J.

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

My favorite bike of all time, AJ's gold plated KX500AF. I would consider giving an appendage though, for that new YZ450. The 4 strokes have allowed too many riders to go from spode to glory, to the er. And it has bitten a lot of potentially good riders also. In my opinion. Back in the day, all these spinal injuries was not this common? Maybe a couple a year, not a couple a month. And there was a ton more riders at the gates! Vintage Bob

 

[reepicheep]

I went the other way. Started on street bikes later in life (30's). My first dirt was doing some Honda NYPUM training on four strokes (my first dirt experience... I wasn't the "teach the kids to ride" guy, I was "push another stupid broken XR70 up the hill for the kid, get them set up on another one, and try and get the first one running again" guy). All four strokes, I got to play on an XR200.

My buddy had an XR650, and I got to ride that a few times. It felt light compared to a street bike. You could tell I was a newbe ;)

Eventually, as time and money allowed, I finally got the chance to get a dirt capable bike of my own, and picked a KLR-250 with 10k miles that needed a LOT of work. As street legal dirt bikes go, especially for 1985, that was a remarkable little bike. I rebuilt it, put about 2000 miles on it commuting and playing on dirt, then did my first real "dual sport fun run".

It was in Zanesville, Ohio, and I was with another buddy with another XR650. This was a ride for plated and street legal dual sports, so you would think an XR650 and KLR250 (both geared down with good knobbies) were both perfect choices.

I still remember my moment of epiphany pulling into the field that morning. Where were all the dual sports? I see maybe 200 bikes around here, and I see maybe 15 of them that were built as street legal. What the heck?

Maybe half were four strokes... lots of DR350, XR400, and KTM450's. The other half were two strokes. Ohio has pretty squishy plating rules ;)

OK, whatever. I guess there aren't that many true plated dual sport options around, so people just bought non plated bikes and plated them. If they want to do the paper work that's their problem.

Then the run started. It was wet and slippery. An hour into it, the truth was ***painfully*** evident, as I was laying in mud staring at the sky trying to decide if I was really having a hear attack... or just wished I was. :whoa:

My buddy on the XR650 was a much better rider then I was, and he was even more screwed. That was the day his bike got the name "the big red pig". If I *never* push another XR650 out of some God forsaken mudhole, it'll still be too soon.

I can't find the picture, but there was another guy there on an XR-650 (Zanesville Trail Riders Cabin Fever run) that had the poor bike *literally* buried so that little more then the handlebars were sticking out of the mud.

We sat there, trying to breathe, watching these little ultra light two strokes just dance through the trails.

Within a year, he sold the XR-650 and bought a CRF-450X. I sold the KLR-250 (after my top end siezed up and I had to rebuild it) and bought a KDX-200 .

Both the CRF and the KDX are *fantastic* trail bikes.

His CRF was new, but an older model that had sat in a crate for a few years and was already "out of date". It was *still* a $6000+ bike.

My KDX was an $800 bike (and too much at that, in hindsight) and I had to put another $1500 into it (top to bottom rebuild of motor, bearings, suspension, big bore kit, plastics, seat cover, tires, chain, you name it).

Both are fantastic bikes. The CRF is a better bike. Another friend got a very nice KDX-200 that was just needs jetted and new plugs for $1500. That's the one I should have bought.

The CRF has a better powerband, more peak horsepower, and electric start. Nice. It has a great stock supension as well. Also nice. It also has about 50 to 75 pounds that my KDX doesn't. Not so nice.

Valve adjustment on the CRF is a bother, but he does it himself, so ultimately its not that big a deal. The CRF has a beautifully elegant top end... great design. I can rebuild my top end (including piston) in about the time it takes him to adjust valves.

I'd love the CRF, but I cant afford to buy it and I can't afford to maintain it long term. I love the KDX, and I can afford to buy it, and can afford to maintain it. And relative to my 4 strokes, it's a dream to maintain.

I think there is a place for a cheap but really capable playbike like the KDX, and it would make a lot of sense for it to be a two stroke. Not everyone wants or needs a $8000 dirt bike.

 

[Joburble]

And there was a ton more riders at the gates! Vintage Bob

Really good point. At the end of the day if our sport is to continue and/or gain popularity (more bums on more seats) bikes will have to be cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain for the masses. Making dirtbiking more affordable must be good for manufacturers and good for riders. If it is to be 4 stroke then the manufacturers have to remove the high stress, high maint element to attract new buyers. Dust off those old moulds and reintroduce the air cooled XR range, reintroduce the CR500 (look how many people have it on their top 5 bikes list), and keep stamping out the good old KDX200. Where's the harm in that eh. Keep the masses happy.

 

[reepicheep]

Well, they can keep the KDX200 motor going, and the chassis, but I wouldn't mind a little suspension upgrade ;)

 

[julien_d]

The kdx engine in a kx125 frame with suspension valved for trail riding. Ultimate play bike??

 

[_JOE_]

The kdx engine in a kx125 frame with suspension valved for trail riding. Ultimate play bike??

Anyone who's done it says so. I'd like to compare one to a KTM 200. I'm really leaning towards a two hunny for my next bike.

 

[julien_d]

I gotta say, I've had a good bit of seat time lately on a couple different 200 xc's, and I'm plenty impressed with them. Power delivery is spot on, and absolutely thrilling. The bike feels light, nimble, and incredibly quick. My only complaint is that the suspension just plain stinks for moderate speeds on the really rough stuff. We ride the tightest trails we can find and although I really enjoy riding the bike, I just feel beat to death every time I get off it. I'm sure If I actually owned one I could tune the suspension for my weight and riding style and be quite pleased with the bike as a package. That said, I really can't see any reason to swap my KDX for one. It does everything I want it to and almost none of the things I don't want it to do. I'm much more confident on it than on the XC's, and most importantly (at least for my beat up old body) it's wayyy more comfortable. A guts racing soft seat would be my first addition to any XC.

 

[_JOE_]

Yeah, I hear the chassis feel is quite different from the Japanese bikes I'm used to. I love my CRF's ultra nimble feel and smooth progressive motor, just wish it didn't have a valve train, lol.

 

[Porkchop]

2-4-2-4-2-4-2-4-2-4-2-4-2-4-2-4-2........?

While I really like my 450x, I had 7 great years on my cr500 & still own it however, This f'ed up economy we're in might force me to sell it, but i don't want to. The bikes prior to that were 440 & 550 Katooms, a couple of good years & one night mare year on those two 2 strokes. prior to that I was on a rotax thumper for a couple of years(90-94). Prior to that (84-90) I was on a yz 490, it was a good trail bike for me. Prior to that I was on a xl 250 that I acquired thru a trade for a can am 250 that I could not give away. I rode the piss out of that bike mostly in baja in the early 80's, it was not real fast but it had the largest malcolm tank sold on it & had huge fuel range, it was a twin shocker & was fun to ride.
So when it came time to decide, WR 450 or CRF450X, I chose honda for 2 reasons, 1, the honda motor has less parts to it & is simpler, less things to break. 2, I all ready had a war chest full of honda parts, most of which fit on the crf. Like the cr 500, the motors are simpler & wrenching is a snap, but I feel like I'm in more control on a 4 stroke, new or old, then there is fuel consumption & range. 4 strokes win in that area hands down. Best Regards, Porkchop... :ride:

 

[BlueOval]

I have a kdx200 at this time and love it for the tight trails. It has low end like a small four stroke. It doesn't have a lot of power, so I am looking for a KX500 (first choice) or a CR 500. That way I will have a great trail bike and an open bike for the Mojave Desert. I have had many 4 strokes and just love the sound and smell of the 2 stroke. No more 4 strokes for me for some time. The 2 stroke just is so much more fun and exciting to ride. I enjoy mixing gas, love the smell of 2 stroke oil. 2 strokes are so very reliable IMO. Anyway, I would say just ride what you have or what you like.

 

[bwlmvmnt]

I started riding again in 1996. I went out and bought a DR350, great bike to learn to ride again. On a whim, I picked up a RMX250 at a garage sale. First time out I knew 2 strokes were for me, I currently ride an 06YZ250, before that a KDX220. The guys I ride with are all 4stroke fans and have never owned 2 strokes. I've ridden all their bikes, 250, 450, Honda, KTM etc. NONE has made me want a 4 stroke! I can't get them to try my bike, I think they are scared of it! Nothing wrong with 4 strokes my son loves his, I just prefer 2t's.