Title Question?
- Thread starter YZ/250
- Start date
robwbright
Member
- Apr 8, 2005
- 2,283
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You need to check your state laws. In Ohio, if the guy has no title, a notarized bill of sale is sufficient to establish ownership.
However, it looks like you're from Pennsylvania. It looks to me like the seller is going to have to get another title before he can transfer it. Check here - I assume this includes motorcycles, but you should make sure:
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/motorVehicleCenter/buying.shtml
Acceptable Proof of Ownership Documents
Vehicle ownership documents issued by vehicle manufacturers and titling jurisdictions that provide specific vehicle information and used as the legal document to transfer ownership of the vehicle are known as “proof of ownership” documents. The following are the acceptable proof of ownership documents:
Manufacturer Certificate/Statement of Origin (MCO or MSO)
Pennsylvania Certificate of Title
Out of State Certificate of Title
Certificate of Salvage
Court Order
Buying a Used Vehicle with a Pennsylvania Title
Pennsylvania titles are used in conjunction with Form MV-4ST, “Vehicle Sales and Use Tax Return/Application for Registration.” This form is only available from authorized agents of PennDOT.
In addition to the Pennsylvania title you will need to provide several items to the agent to complete your title application. More information can be found in the Buying or Selling Your Car in Pennsylvania fact sheet.
However, it looks like you're from Pennsylvania. It looks to me like the seller is going to have to get another title before he can transfer it. Check here - I assume this includes motorcycles, but you should make sure:
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/motorVehicleCenter/buying.shtml
Acceptable Proof of Ownership Documents
Vehicle ownership documents issued by vehicle manufacturers and titling jurisdictions that provide specific vehicle information and used as the legal document to transfer ownership of the vehicle are known as “proof of ownership” documents. The following are the acceptable proof of ownership documents:
Manufacturer Certificate/Statement of Origin (MCO or MSO)
Pennsylvania Certificate of Title
Out of State Certificate of Title
Certificate of Salvage
Court Order
Buying a Used Vehicle with a Pennsylvania Title
Pennsylvania titles are used in conjunction with Form MV-4ST, “Vehicle Sales and Use Tax Return/Application for Registration.” This form is only available from authorized agents of PennDOT.
In addition to the Pennsylvania title you will need to provide several items to the agent to complete your title application. More information can be found in the Buying or Selling Your Car in Pennsylvania fact sheet.
Reesknight
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 31, 2002
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I think you have to ask yourself this: At what point are you ever going to have to show proof of ownership?
That being said, if the bike has no title, I would get a bill of sale anyway. I've been riding dirtbikes for several years and never had to show proof of ownership, but then I've never had to get a permit to ride on government land....yet, and don't know if you need a title or not for that.
That being said, if the bike has no title, I would get a bill of sale anyway. I've been riding dirtbikes for several years and never had to show proof of ownership, but then I've never had to get a permit to ride on government land....yet, and don't know if you need a title or not for that.
Yz250FinAZ
Member
- Dec 15, 2003
- 65
- 0
76GMC1500 said:
Thats what i would think...
Reesknight said:
Here you just pay like $20 for a permit downtown at some gov't building, we didnt need to show a title.
Reesknight
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 31, 2002
- 942
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Possibly, but not necessarily. People loose things and since they never need it for anything, never bother with getting another one. Have your dealer run the VIN number to see if its reported stolen.76GMC1500 said:
rmc_olderthandirt
~SPONSOR~
- Apr 18, 2006
- 1,533
- 8
I just went through an experience of buying a bike without title in a state that requires it. It was a hassle, but it can be done properly....
I live in California and all off road vehicles that are used on public lands need to have an "Off Highway Vehicle" registration. This amounts to a "red" or "Green" sticker that goes on the bike/ATV/car and certificate of title.
It is common for bikes to enter California from out of state that have no formal registration. It is also possible that a bike that was used purely for race (and thus didn't need the registration) to be demoted to general use.
The first thing you want to do is get the Vehicle Identification Number and have the number checked. Here in California that would happen at the Department of Moter Vehicles (DMV). A quick search will turn up if has ever been reported as stolen, if it was previously registered, or if it has no record.
If it was reported as stolen you want to distance yourself from it ASAP! Tell DMV where it is and walk away.
If was previously registered then there could be an incredible hassle as it means that there are back registration fees due, possibly including penalties, and there will need to be of forms that need to be signed by either the last registered owner or sworn statements from people who can swear "statement of facts" regarding how the bike came to be where it is. This can be quite a hassle, so be prepared.
If the bike has no prior history of any registration the hoops you need t jump through, at least in California, are a PITA but can be done. What I had to do:
1) Go to DMV with the paperwork, including a signed bill of sale from the last owner. They started the paperwork, which included "statement of facts" that basically said that the bike has not been operated in California. Note that this process can be a lot easier if you do it BEFORE you get a ticket for riding without the proper registration!
2) DMV had me bring the bike to DMV for them to inspect. This required an appointment, which took a few weeks to get.
3) For reasons I never understood, after DMV inspected it they insisted that the California Highway Patrol needed to inspect it as well. This required another appointment, which was another couple of weeks.
4) Back to DMV with the inspection papers, only to discover that I had obtained the wrong form from CHP.
5) Another appointment at CHP, get the proper form signed this time.
6) back to DMV, finally get the title and my "green sticker".
Rod
I live in California and all off road vehicles that are used on public lands need to have an "Off Highway Vehicle" registration. This amounts to a "red" or "Green" sticker that goes on the bike/ATV/car and certificate of title.
It is common for bikes to enter California from out of state that have no formal registration. It is also possible that a bike that was used purely for race (and thus didn't need the registration) to be demoted to general use.
The first thing you want to do is get the Vehicle Identification Number and have the number checked. Here in California that would happen at the Department of Moter Vehicles (DMV). A quick search will turn up if has ever been reported as stolen, if it was previously registered, or if it has no record.
If it was reported as stolen you want to distance yourself from it ASAP! Tell DMV where it is and walk away.
If was previously registered then there could be an incredible hassle as it means that there are back registration fees due, possibly including penalties, and there will need to be of forms that need to be signed by either the last registered owner or sworn statements from people who can swear "statement of facts" regarding how the bike came to be where it is. This can be quite a hassle, so be prepared.
If the bike has no prior history of any registration the hoops you need t jump through, at least in California, are a PITA but can be done. What I had to do:
1) Go to DMV with the paperwork, including a signed bill of sale from the last owner. They started the paperwork, which included "statement of facts" that basically said that the bike has not been operated in California. Note that this process can be a lot easier if you do it BEFORE you get a ticket for riding without the proper registration!
2) DMV had me bring the bike to DMV for them to inspect. This required an appointment, which took a few weeks to get.
3) For reasons I never understood, after DMV inspected it they insisted that the California Highway Patrol needed to inspect it as well. This required another appointment, which was another couple of weeks.
4) Back to DMV with the inspection papers, only to discover that I had obtained the wrong form from CHP.
5) Another appointment at CHP, get the proper form signed this time.
6) back to DMV, finally get the title and my "green sticker".
Rod
76GMC1500 said:
I would buy that if you are talking about a bike that's less than 2-3 years old. Frankly most of the old bikes (7+ years old) I've been around don't have proper ownership papers, but the bikes don't cost much money. The old bikes often go through lots of hands and paperwork gets lost. Some are never titled from new. They are left as a MSO (manufacturers' specification of orgin). In Indiana if you title you bike, you will get hit with personal property tax. I don't properly title any of my bikes. Most of my bikes have had titles, but I left them open and sell them with the same piece of paper I got with the bike. I have gone to the police station with a bike I was thinking about buying to get a police VIN inspection. I also always get a bill of sale on bikes that don't have a title. In some states you may need a title to register for use in parks or public lands. I'd find out if you need this berfore you do anything.
Well, I come from California where you are required to register your bike if you ride on public land. The ownership papers are required to ride the bike. If they are unavailable, the registered owner can get new papers from the DMV. Bikes have changed so little in the past 2-3 years, a thief would not know how old the bike is if he stole it.
B
biglou
I don't have a title for my bike and it's definitely not stolen. I bought it new.76GMC1500 said:
biglou said:
+1 - I dont have a title for my KX450F, bought it new in CA, all I have is my bill of sale receipt paperwork. Also I just sold two bikes a 2003 KX 250 and a 1997 KDX 200. The KDX 200 was the only bike I have ever owned that had a "title", it was actually a certificate of origin.
B
biglou
I have my MSO, I just never got it titled.
YZ/250,
Your good to go, if the rest of the bike & price are good, too. MSO stands for Manufacturer's Statement of Origin. This is the document the builder of the bike is required, by law, (Federal D.O.T.,) to supply to the dealer that sells the bike when new.
After that, state law determines what happens next. In many states the dealer that sells the new bike gives the purchaser the M.S.O. as his proof of ownership. An M.S.O. does not have the purchaser's name on it; only the manufacturer's and the selling dealers info. The MSO get passed from owner to subsequent owner without any change whatsoever, (wise sellers & buyers will also complete a bill of sale.)
Other states, for various reasons, require the selling dealer to submit the MSO to the state upon the sale to a customer, and the state then issues a title to the bike. Most will say "not for highway use" and list the owner's name and address. the owner must then 'sign over' the title to the new owner. Then the new owner's state law determines what happens next. (same state or different state?)
This is a simplified explanation, as each state law differs, etc.,etc, etc., but hopefully you get the concept. Bottom line, with an MSO & a bill of sale, legally you are good as carbon fiber (or titanium!)
Your good to go, if the rest of the bike & price are good, too. MSO stands for Manufacturer's Statement of Origin. This is the document the builder of the bike is required, by law, (Federal D.O.T.,) to supply to the dealer that sells the bike when new.
After that, state law determines what happens next. In many states the dealer that sells the new bike gives the purchaser the M.S.O. as his proof of ownership. An M.S.O. does not have the purchaser's name on it; only the manufacturer's and the selling dealers info. The MSO get passed from owner to subsequent owner without any change whatsoever, (wise sellers & buyers will also complete a bill of sale.)
Other states, for various reasons, require the selling dealer to submit the MSO to the state upon the sale to a customer, and the state then issues a title to the bike. Most will say "not for highway use" and list the owner's name and address. the owner must then 'sign over' the title to the new owner. Then the new owner's state law determines what happens next. (same state or different state?)
This is a simplified explanation, as each state law differs, etc.,etc, etc., but hopefully you get the concept. Bottom line, with an MSO & a bill of sale, legally you are good as carbon fiber (or titanium!)
Since your in PA, the one thing that I've noticed is that you need almost everything notarized! In NY you didn't need, or get, a title with a dirtbike, and if you did, all you had to do was sign the back of it. In PA, you need to have both parties present and at a notary, which are EVERYWHERE. I would make a deal, then have the seller go with you to a car dealership, post office, coffee shop, or a house where there's someone that's a Notary and do it right. If you ever do want to register it, then a notartized piece of paper will be worth alot more to you.
B
biglou
In MO only, you have 30 days to apply for title. At that time, you pay sales tax, and from that point forward, you pay personal property tax at the end of each year for whatever you owned on Jan 1st of that year. So, yeah, I'm cheating them out of a few hundred sales tax plus $40-50 year property tax. It's still insured though. All my agent needed was the MSO for that.
