To hone or not?
- Thread starter AlH
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Canadian Dave
Super Power AssClown
- Apr 28, 1999
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If you are concerned about using a ball hone you might consider scuffing the cylinder walls with a Scotch Bright pad. Its a happy medium between using a ball hone or no hone at all. I've used the burgundy grade with good results but I expect green should work fine as well and is easily to find.
David
David
The ef coating on the cylinder is very thin. I personally would not hone it. If you can see uneven wear on the cylinder, I would send it to fredette for replating. If it is just smooth and shiny(normal even glaze) I would do just a light scotchbrite rough up as mentioned previously. It is very easy to go to heavy or cause uneven spots when stone honing...especially if you are inexperienced. I would also replace or upgrade your air filter...why was the intake piston side so scratched up?
canyncarvr
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- Oct 14, 1999
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re: 'why was the intake piston side so scratched up?'
I'm curious about that, too.
I think the only thing that causes an intake side piston failure is improper lubrication....that would come either from the particular oil being used, or the volume of that oil in the fuel.
Well, or FOD.
I'm curious about that, too.
I think the only thing that causes an intake side piston failure is improper lubrication....that would come either from the particular oil being used, or the volume of that oil in the fuel.
Well, or FOD.
dirt bike dave
Sponsoring Member
- May 3, 2000
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Intake side scuffing is usually caused by not warming up the bike enough. Let it warm up longer and don't put a heavy load on the engine until you have done a little light load/low throttle riding.
IMO, even a well jetted bike with good oil at the proper mixture will scuff the intake side or even get a 'cold' seizure on the intake side if you don't warm it up.
Basically, on a cold bike the unatomized gas is washing the oil off the intake side of the piston.
IMO, even a well jetted bike with good oil at the proper mixture will scuff the intake side or even get a 'cold' seizure on the intake side if you don't warm it up.
Basically, on a cold bike the unatomized gas is washing the oil off the intake side of the piston.
fyi...I checked and the kaw manual says NO to honing. rough piston exhaust side would indicate lean operation. from my snowmobiles, I know that rough intake side is often caused by snow injestion...moisture washing away the 2stroke lube. for the piston intake side,cc may be on the right track with fuel ratio that is too light on lube.i prefer the 32:1 for max oil and engine life.
- Thread starter
- #13
I don't know why the intake side was scuffed....never been in water, filter kept clean, have run Redline Synthetic Racing oil at 48:1 for the majority of the bikes life, ran BelRay when new at 32:1. My teenage son has been riding the bike mostly so he may have run it hard when cold, cautioned him about that once already.
BTW I did the Scotchbrite hand hone job (sounds kinky!) and hope to run the bike today.
Thanks for all the replies....BTW the original reason I looked at the top end is the bike has been fouling plugs a lot, never used to do that. Been through the carb several times and can find no problems there, so top end was next.
BTW I did the Scotchbrite hand hone job (sounds kinky!) and hope to run the bike today.
Thanks for all the replies....BTW the original reason I looked at the top end is the bike has been fouling plugs a lot, never used to do that. Been through the carb several times and can find no problems there, so top end was next.
canyncarvr
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- Oct 14, 1999
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EG's site is back up. I wanted to be able to check that before I said anything further. I do remember correctly. He says (here) :
INTAKE SIDE SEIZURE
This piston was seized on the intake side. This is very uncommon and is caused by only one thing, loss of lubrication. There are three possible causes for loss of lubrication, no pre-mix oil, separation of the fuel and pre-mix oil in the fuel tank, water passed through the air-filter and washed the oil film off the piston skirt.
***
Excess fuel will contain excess oil (unless separated as stated above). He doesn't say 'lousy oil', but a poor oil could certainly fall under the heading of 'improper lubrication' I would think.
INTAKE SIDE SEIZURE
This piston was seized on the intake side. This is very uncommon and is caused by only one thing, loss of lubrication. There are three possible causes for loss of lubrication, no pre-mix oil, separation of the fuel and pre-mix oil in the fuel tank, water passed through the air-filter and washed the oil film off the piston skirt.
***
Excess fuel will contain excess oil (unless separated as stated above). He doesn't say 'lousy oil', but a poor oil could certainly fall under the heading of 'improper lubrication' I would think.
dirt bike dave
Sponsoring Member
- May 3, 2000
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CC - that quote makes it sound like it is impossible to 'cold seize' a bike that has non-seperated pre-mix unless there is water present.
IMO, if you start a cold two-stroke with good pre-mix and a dry air filter and proceed to flog it within seconds of start-up, you are asking for a cold seizure and/or scuffing on the intake. I don't mean to disagree with Eric, but perhaps on his site he has some information about warming up a two stroke, and why you should do it.
IMO, if you start a cold two-stroke with good pre-mix and a dry air filter and proceed to flog it within seconds of start-up, you are asking for a cold seizure and/or scuffing on the intake. I don't mean to disagree with Eric, but perhaps on his site he has some information about warming up a two stroke, and why you should do it.
NEVER use ANY hone that would be rentable on ANY dirt bike cylinder.NGE said:
Elbo grease and a good Scotchbrite pad, as Dave suggested, is the best advise.
This is some very interesting information!
Thanks guys!
So if i recoat a cylinder i can just use a house-hold green scotchbrite??
And what type of grease is Elbo, in case i can't get the same brand?
Another question to think about:
If some say there is no need for honing, when you think about it - the coating is the hardest material in the top end, and the piston&rings should be softer , correct?
So theoreticly, can you recoat the cylinder, put the right size piston&rings (within tolerance , no honing) - and then slowly break-in the motor, until everything fits in place?
But this way, can this result in damage- to any of the above, or not ?
I hope to get your reply
Thanks!
Thanks guys!
So if i recoat a cylinder i can just use a house-hold green scotchbrite??
And what type of grease is Elbo, in case i can't get the same brand?
Another question to think about:
If some say there is no need for honing, when you think about it - the coating is the hardest material in the top end, and the piston&rings should be softer , correct?
So theoreticly, can you recoat the cylinder, put the right size piston&rings (within tolerance , no honing) - and then slowly break-in the motor, until everything fits in place?
But this way, can this result in damage- to any of the above, or not ?
I hope to get your reply
Thanks!
Some animated clip i found on Youtube shows the process of replating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pao-JpivEUc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Although anyone can post anything...
Thanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pao-JpivEUc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Although anyone can post anything...
Thanks.
Do you guys think you can affect the surface of a ceramic coated cylinder with a scotch brite pad?
I always thought the scotch bright thing was advice to give people who really want to hone the cylinder something to do instead to make them feel better without damaging the cylinder.
As mentioned the cylinder is not designed to be honed.
My pistons typically showed some scoring on the intake side. When I replaced them I just added a new piston and new rings. No honing, no scotch bright, no worries. Works good, lasts a long time. Not sure how many dirt miles I've logged on the old KDX. The odo shows 10k, but the odo stopped working years before I stopped riding it.
I always thought the scotch bright thing was advice to give people who really want to hone the cylinder something to do instead to make them feel better without damaging the cylinder.
As mentioned the cylinder is not designed to be honed.
My pistons typically showed some scoring on the intake side. When I replaced them I just added a new piston and new rings. No honing, no scotch bright, no worries. Works good, lasts a long time. Not sure how many dirt miles I've logged on the old KDX. The odo shows 10k, but the odo stopped working years before I stopped riding it.
canyncarvr
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 14, 1999
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omrik88 said:
Re"..if I recoat a cylinder...'
You mean to say you are re-coating your own? :ohmy:
omrik88 said:
Brand names differ. In your case it would be omrik88 brand.
The term refers to WORK (effort of same) applied to something. You can hand sand a 2x4 into a 1x4 with the application of prodigious amounts of 'elbo grease'.
JohninKY said:
Ceramic coated? So THAT is what NSC ('fer instance) stands for..Nickel Silicon Ceramic.
Things must've changed in the eight years this thread has aged! I never knew. :think:
JohninKY said:
Who mentioned that? Is 'No One' in the house? :nener:
I swear...the longer I'm away from trolling nonsense the likes of which brought THIS thread back from the dead, the farther behinder I get. ;)
canyncarvr
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 14, 1999
- 4,005
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omrik88 said:
Generally speaking, responding to a thread that is eight years dead is considered bad forum ettiquette.
I answered your question that I understood, asked for clarification for those I did not.
Maybe you think I was kidding about elbow grease? Nope. I told 'ya true. Well, maybe I misunderstood Jaybird. Maybe there IS a particular brand of grease to use. Did it come out about the time ceramic coatings (NSC) did? :yikes:
I do apologize for my error, but I completely missed the part where I called you (or anyone else) stupid. Maybe it's hiding between a couple'a lines..... :fft:
You're welcome anyway. I'm sure you appreciate it. Deep down...you know you really do!
Hey Juliend! It just doesn't get any better'n this, 'eh!?
motopsycho87
Member
- Dec 26, 2010
- 152
- 2
I'm gonna post for the sake of it.
DO NOT HONE NICASIL LINED BARRELS. When they are honed by the people who do your plating they use very fine diamond pointed honing tools. That is enough. The rings you use are not the same and the cylinder wall is not the same as what goes into cast iron bores. They have special coatings which are designed to fit from the word go. If anything, just a little CLEAN with a scotch pad is fine. But if you really think a scouring pad is going to even touch the NiCaSil, you are an idiot.
DO NOT HONE NICASIL LINED BARRELS. When they are honed by the people who do your plating they use very fine diamond pointed honing tools. That is enough. The rings you use are not the same and the cylinder wall is not the same as what goes into cast iron bores. They have special coatings which are designed to fit from the word go. If anything, just a little CLEAN with a scotch pad is fine. But if you really think a scouring pad is going to even touch the NiCaSil, you are an idiot.
