Watch out for DNR at Wolverine!!!

[PoeBrian]

For any of you that are planning trips to Wolverine this year, make sure you know the laws as it applies to the roads and trails. The DNR are writing tickets like they are going out of style. I have been there 2 times in May with a group of 15-20 bikes and they have dished out tickets each time to different guys each time for riding on trails that are "not designated atv or motorcycle trails".
In the tomahawk trail system there are 3 different counties that you ride through. A couple of them have different riding laws. You need to know them! On Sat. 5/21/05 the DNR sat in hiding spots on back roads and 2 tracks to catch whomever they could all day! The tickets are $130 which creates a real buzz kill when you are trying to have fun away from all the political crap from home and work! When asked why they cannot just warn us, they said they have been warning people for several years and the bikes and atv's are still riding where they are not supposed to so it was time to crack down!

Be careful to stay on the orange triangle trail!

 

[ellandoh]

thanx for the heads up . i always follow the rules but do not want to sink any of my hard earned play money where it is not wanted . just wondering if the guys you know got tickets for deserving reasons or was the dnr nitpicking?? i believe there is a difference ......if theyre nitpicking then the locals want the orv traffic cut down and i will grant their wish.
dnr doesnt come out nitpicking this early in the year unless theyve got an m.o.

 

[2TrakR]

PoeBrian - were they riding on unmarked forest roads or something similar with unlicensed bikes or ..? Details, please..

 

[ellandoh]

PoeBrian - were they riding on unmarked forest roads or something similar with unlicensed bikes or ..? Details, please..

yes what does this " riding on trails that are "not designated atv or motorcycle trails". mean

 

[Smit-Dog]

I'm assuming that these were un-plated bikes...

Also, if you are plated, be sure to carry your current registration and proof of insurance. Last time I was stopped, the CO told me they are also checking to be sure the registration/insurance certificates actually match the bike and plate. Luckily for RickShaw they only checked down to the brand of bike, and not the VIN.

 

[woodsy]

Indeed, I got stopped pulling out of Cedar Creek a couple weeks back. It was VIN check time, no ticket (LEGAL - YEA) but they are watching!! Another something that soome folks are overlooking is the OCY on the Drivers License - that will earn you a quick tick too!!
By the way guys, I still have in my possession a copy of Fred Trosts newpaper that reports that these questionable tickets are being written to fight present day Concealed Weapons laws. Did you folks know that if you recieve a ticket that is a Misdemeaner (all of the current ORV violations are such and fall directly into this category) that you cannot even appy for the right to carry?? One such ticket and your gun carry rights are screwed!!
According to the report, most people dont even think to fight such petty stuff not realising that they are surrendering rights by not fighting.. Just something to think about as to the question of why are they (the boys in green) so aggressive these days...
On the other hand, it could be just simple economics or even some complaining land owners for that matter!!
By the way, this thread makes me think of one more reason to run our machines as quite as possible (like I did at ROS this year - I really was a good example :yikes: :laugh: , JUST JOKING).
I too would like to hear more detail on the incident Brian... And THANKS for the heads up, its always nice to know which hole the DNR is fishing at any given time..
Woodsy

 

[PoeBrian]

This last weekend 2 guys on quads got tickets for riding a little north of county line road in Emmit Co. on a power line trail. The DNR had been parked down the road and heard them coming. On May 1st weekend 7 of us on bikes road on a little trail that is a short cut on the north side of Weber lake to get to the B Loop trail from Weber lake State park where we were camping. Before we left for our ride an officer had been to our camp sites to check our site tags. At that time we were getting ready to go out for a morning ride. We think he noticed this and waited on the road that runs North/South on the West side of Weber Lake. The trail we were on dumps onto this road. When we got to the end of the trail approaching the road he came racing up to us from the North with his lights flashing. He check all of our DNR stickers and then proceeded to write citations to us for being on a trail that did not have a orv triangle marking it. I then noticed on the west side of the trail it was marked with a blue triangle but coming from the campground the trail did not have any markings that we could see!
While there is no question we were technically in the wrong it seemed rather picky. After getting back to camp I then found out that this officer had been to our sites the day before and had seen some of our other guys on this same trail. He did not ticket them nor did he warn us that we should not be on this trail and stay off it! This is what makes us think he was more interested in writing tickets than warning!
He ran all of our drivers Licence no. to clear us. We then found out that one of the guys had a suspended drivers Licence. When the officer found this out he made the guy post $100 bond in cash at that time in the campground. When asked what would happen if we did not have the cash the officer said he would have to arrest the guy and take him to jail. I know this sounds crazy but I was standing there watching this all take place. We had driven 7 hrs from Ohio to ride there and the officer says he is not allowed to ride his bike on the trail for the rest of weekend because his Licence was suspended.
Also 1 of the girls that was with us was on her quad out on a 2 track dirt road mushroom hunting while the boys were out playing on there bikes. She drives down County Line road and makes a left down this 2 track now in Charlevoix Co. were there was parked a DNR truck with 2 officers in their truck. Sure enough they pull her over and read her the riot act. She is a cute girl so as you can imagine she received a warning!!!
All machines were un-plated except for 2 KTM's.

This was a lot of stress for a weekend vacation!

 

[adam728]

I guess none of that surprises me, the DNR have never been lenient around Oscoda, you break the law, you get a ticket.

What gets me is that they seem to not care about spark arrestors anymore. 3 times this year I've been checked out and never have they looked for a spark arrestor. I watched them check 3 guys on motocrossers at the trail head a few weeks ago, 2 of the bikes had super shorty silencers on em and the officer never looked twice. But then I got the 3rd degree and a warning (like he was doing me the biggest favor in the world) for not having an orv sticker. This was on my licensed bike while on the ORV route, where you need a Secretary of State license OR an ORV sticker. The officer said that was not so and said he could ticket me on the spot. I stopped arguing cause I didn't need the trouble.

 

[woodsracer369]

I find no fault in the DNR, USFS, or local law enforcment enforcing the law. In every instance that I have recieved a citation (I have never recieved one on my motorcycle) I know whom to blame, and it's not the fault of overzealous law enforcement. It really all boils down to being good stewards of our sport. I know I am probably going to get hammered for this but....... If you get a ticket, you deserve it. If you do something and don't know the consequences of your actions, tough. Riding down a walking trail?!?, this is the kind of activity that gets riding areas the kind of attention that we don't need.

 

[KTM Mike]

I find no fault in the DNR, USFS, or local law enforcment enforcing the law. In every instance that I have recieved a citation (I have never recieved one on my motorcycle) I know whom to blame, and it's not the fault of overzealous law enforcement. It really all boils down to being good stewards of our sport. I know I am probably going to get hammered for this but....... If you get a ticket, you deserve it. If you do something and don't know the consequences of your actions, tough. Riding down a walking trail?!?, this is the kind of activity that gets riding areas the kind of attention that we don't need.

BINGO! I agree 100% with Trevor! If you were not on legal trail, not properly licensed, pay up! Most all of what was described by Brian (no offense intended Brian) was them being on illegal trail. Even if it was due to stepped up enforcement motivated by revenue needs, illegal is illegal. (I had better not complain when i get a ticket for speeding huh?)

To Adam's point about needing street license OR ORV sticker - as I understand it, if it is a designated ORV trail or route, you must have the sticker - period. That is why (for example) my street licensed Jeep has an ORV sticker, and my (well...soon to be - my old bike was licensed already) steet licensed KTM has an ORV sticker.

About the guy with suspended license being told he can not ride ORV trail - that does not sound proper to me. Why then can my 12 year old legally ride ORV trail? Was that rider on one of the plated bikes, and the officer was referring to him not riding anywhere that required a plated and licensed driver?

 

[adam728]

It says on the maps that for an ORV route you need either a SOS license or an ORV sticker, not both. The trail I was on was the snowmobile trail, it's open to bikes, quads, Jeeps, trucks, cars, everything. Same thing happened to a buddy of mine in the UP. He zipped down part of the trail on his street bike and got a ticket for no ORV sticker (probably would have been a warning, but he's very argumentitive). He fought it and won, because it was an either / or trail. He had been ticketed by the local Police, and got off because he got the DNR involved and they took his side.

 

[PoeBrian]

Ktm Mike,
I asked the officer about your 12 year old and he said that they are only legal if they are riding supervised and must have a certificate showing they have taken the riding course the state provides for those wanting to ride that are under the age of 16. Otherwise they are illegal! By law you cannot operate a machine on an orv trail without a legal drivers licence or a certificate from the above metioned riding course.
The main point of my thread was not to throw blame on the DNR. There is no question that what we did was wrong. I was trying to create more awareness to those who have made the same mistakes we have in the past to be more careful with their riding decisions in the future!
Also to make aware that some rodes are okay to ride on the ride side and some are not, depending on the county that you are in! We need to know these things!.

 

[YZMAN400]

I find no fault in the DNR, USFS, or local law enforcment enforcing the law. In every instance that I have recieved a citation (I have never recieved one on my motorcycle) I know whom to blame, and it's not the fault of overzealous law enforcement. It really all boils down to being good stewards of our sport. I know I am probably going to get hammered for this but....... If you get a ticket, you deserve it. If you do something and don't know the consequences of your actions, tough. Riding down a walking trail?!?, this is the kind of activity that gets riding areas the kind of attention that we don't need.

Well said Trevor. You beat me to the punch :cool:

It is soo easy to stay on the mans good side. All you really need is:

1. A spark arrestor,
2. A relativly quiet exhaust. It really dosn't need to meet 94 db as they rarely check anyways, as long as it isn't obnoxiously loud.
3. A ORV sticker.
4. And here is the important one, STAY ON MARKED TRAILS.

There its just that easy. If you dont know if you should be on a certain trail/road/2-track...Dont go on it. If you do you are rolling the dice :|

 

[KTM Mike]

It says on the maps that for an ORV route you need either a SOS license or an ORV sticker, not both. The trail I was on was the snowmobile trail, it's open to bikes, quads, Jeeps, trucks, cars, everything. Same thing happened to a buddy of mine in the UP. .......He had been ticketed by the local Police, and got off because he got the DNR involved and they took his side.

Hmmm...now I am wondering where in the world I got my (messed up) understanding! I stand corrected! Now just because it is Sno Mo trail, does NOT necessarily mean it is ALSO ORV route....some is some is not. DNR on the riders side...that is a pleasant suprise!

Brian - yep you got that correct. My boys have both taken the classes (multiple times!), and only ride supervised. Sounds like if you have the misfortune of no drivers license, (and over age 16) you should go get a certificate!

I do appreciate the heads up though. I often ride forgetting to bring my drivers license or proof of insurance etc! Good reminder to keep it on me!

I am spoiled where I live (Montmorency County) as county roads are open to ORVs here. If i head south to Oscoda county, (Mio and Hunt Creek loops) those back roads no longer legal to ride (unless I get my new bike plated...). It does get confusing, and exactly where those county lines are is often not to clear!

 

[2TrakR]

KTM Mike - if your license is suspended, you can't drive ORVs or sleds. If you've never had a license, it's not suspended so it doesn't apply. Sounds goofy, but makes sense to me.
Adam728 is right about the SOS superseeding the ORV sticker for use on county/forest roads. Do need a sticker if you are on an ORV Trail (trail not route). Route is open to SOS licensed vehicles, not restricted to ORVs like an ORV Trail is. The CO was right that he could still write a ticket, whether it would fly in court is another story. I'd suggest he buy a sticker anyway to support our trail system.
Brian - blue markings are for non-motorized travel. If you saw a "blue triangle" it's most likely a designated hiking or horse trail (they have similar markings).
I'm very surprised about the cash/bond on site thing. That sounds beyond fishy, but I don't know if it's procedure or nto.

Be nice if the COs started going after spark/sound violations but consider this viewpoint... Have you met a CO that wanted ORVs out in their woods? If you haven't, consider what's the major gripe non-riders have about ORVs - NOISE! When those non-riders get up and b|tch at a meeting (like to open the county roads to ORVs) 90% of the time they include the noise issue. Why would any CO want you to ride a quieter machine when that excessive noise is working FOR them?
I think that's a better conspiracy theory than Woodsy's CCW permit/misdemeaner. ;-)

 

[PoeBrian]

2Trakr,
I was aware at the time that blue triangles were for not motorized vehicles. This particular trail we were on was not marked going in the direction we started. It was not until we got to the end of the trail did we see the blue triangles looking back in the opposite direction. It was only marked 1 way. The other thing we had in mind was the fact that in the Tommahawk trail system they have been cutting some new trail over the last few years. They do not get orange triangles up right away many times. So you are riding trails that are not properly marked!

Unfortately, hard lesson learned.

I suspect the heavily increased traffic these trails have developed have simply caused more attention from the DNR. It was not so bad 5-10 years ago.

 

[Smit-Dog]

... My boys have both taken the classes (multiple times!), and only ride supervised.

Ask Tom Dunn about your kids riding unsupervised!

Tom's son was riding on private land (LMC clubgrounds), not directly supervised (I've done it too). A tree fell in the woods and broke his son's leg. DNR (USFS?) followed-up on the accident, and issued Tom a citation because his son was not directly supervised. This was not ORV trail, so not under DRN jurisdiction.

I believe that Tom fought the ticket, and I thought something was posted on the D-14 site, newsletter, or in the CCC magazine about this... can't remember the outcome though... :think: I'm sure Don Marsh or Fatherandson know more of the details...

I do agree that the DNR can take a hard line regarding enforcement. But given the public perception of off-road riders, continuing public land closures, and a stagnant trail system, I'd rather have them working hard to keep everyone in-line with citations than take an apathetic stance and let a few bad and/or ignorant riders continue to (sometimes unknowingly) ruin it for everyone.

I'd also agree that it's not always easy to know if you're in full compliance or not... but ignorance of the law is no excuse (as my dad used to say!)...

And $16.25 to ride for an entire year is an unbelievable bargain! If the DNR is using $140 citations to enforce and generate revenue, so be it.... we could all be paying $25-$45 to spend just a single day at a 200 acre riding park.

 

[adam728]

Adam728 is right about the SOS superseeding the ORV sticker for use on county/forest roads. Do need a sticker if you are on an ORV Trail (trail not route). Route is open to SOS licensed vehicles, not restricted to ORVs like an ORV Trail is. The CO was right that he could still write a ticket, whether it would fly in court is another story. I'd suggest he buy a sticker anyway to support our trail system.

I still don't see how he could ticket me. I was on an ORV route with a SOS license, but he claimed I also needed an ORV. It's exactly the same thing that happened to my buddy, and the DNR took his side on it (lucky him). Happened to him when we lived in Hancock, happened to me in Oscoda.

And I do have a sticker (I always have a sticker). I put my ORV sticker on the same time as all my other fender stickers before even getting the bike out this year. Stopped for gas in the truck when it was raining REAL hard. All stickers in place except the ORV one was hanging by the smallest bit of corner. The glue had let go of the back of the sticker, not the fender (so it wasn't like I stuck it on a dirty or armor-alled fender and the glue let loose). The back of the sticker was completly glue-free, and a large regtangle of goo was still on the fender. I threw it in the tool box with the intent to clear tape it on before riding, but forgot and went the next day, which is when I met up with the DNR. I'm all stickered up now, just wasn't that weekend.

KTM Mike - Yea, I guess saying snowmobile trail was pretty meaningless, but that one is the ORV route during summer. Most the snowmobile trail is closed to wheeled vehicles around there, but not that part. I was about 100 yards from the trail head parking lot.

 

[Smit-Dog]

The adhesive backing used on ORV stickers for the past 2 years ('04 and '05) is much better than what was used previously, at least the high-quality pre-printed ones purchased directly from the DNR. I don't know about the ones that look like they were printed with a dot-matrix printer. Prior to '04, I've had ORV stickers get blown off cleanly with a power washer, not much left behind other than some nondescript adhesive.

When removing the '04 sticker with a hair dryer, the top layer of the sticker came off relatively easy. What was left was a perfect rectangle of adhesive with a "VOID" pattern in white block letters all over it. In my experience, these newer sticker stick very well. Even if it came off accidentally, I would think that the "VOID" would be a tell-tale sign that an ORV sticker used to be there, and you'd get some sympathy from the CO.

 

[2TrakR]

I still don't see how he could ticket me. I was on an ORV route with a SOS license, but he claimed I also needed an ORV.

He could write a ticket if you were "acting as an ORV" vs acting as a SOS licensed vehicle. Very difficult for him to proof the former in the situation you were in.
When your plated bike is on an ORV Trail (Trail, not Route) or in a designated cross-country scrambles area (Black Lake, Silver Lake, St Helen MotorSports area, etc.) your bike is not operating as a SOS licensed vehicle but as an ORV. In that case, you need the ORV sticker. What's the difference? ORV Trails are legally defined to include operation by ORVs, not PA300 vehicles (cars).

Generally, all ORV Routes use forest roads; SOS licensed vehicles are permitted to operate on all open forest roads, so no ORV sticker needed on ORV Routes when in your car. There are some ORV Routes that a SOS licensed vehicle can't traverse, very rare and few in numbers anymore. A bad example, but legitimate, are a couple of ORV Routes in the Little Manistee system. There are a couple of 50" trails that are designated (improperly) as ORV Route. Better example: Gladwin ORV Route (now closed) had conditions that would preclude a conventional 2 wheel drive passenger car from traversing the Route. Due to conditions an ORV would be required, thus your bike would be considered as an ORV when on that route.

Generally speaking, I would consider the court to side in your favor on such judgement/technicality items.

Glad you had the sticker; sorry to have misunderstood originally.

And guys - remember that tickets don't equate to revenue for the Department. After court fees are subtracted the balance goes to the local county budget.

 

[adam728]

The adhesive backing used on ORV stickers for the past 2 years ('04 and '05) is much better than what was used previously, at least the high-quality pre-printed ones purchased directly from the DNR. I don't know about the ones that look like they were printed with a dot-matrix printer. Prior to '04, I've had ORV stickers get blown off cleanly with a power washer, not much left behind other than some nondescript adhesive.

When removing the '04 sticker with a hair dryer, the top layer of the sticker came off relatively easy. What was left was a perfect rectangle of adhesive with a "VOID" pattern in white block letters all over it. In my experience, these newer sticker stick very well. Even if it came off accidentally, I would think that the "VOID" would be a tell-tale sign that an ORV sticker used to be there, and you'd get some sympathy from the CO.

No "VOID" on the new dot-matrix looking ones (got it from the dealer). Mine left nothing but glue. A friend of mine put one on his Honda and promptly killed it first ride out. He took a hair dryer to it, peeled off no problem, and stuck it on his Kawasaki. His was Dot-matrix print as well.

2trakR - I'm still not seeing how he could ticket me. I could understand if I was on an ORV trail. But I was on a route with a plate where I could legaly drive my grandma's Buick if I wanted. There's always guys driving trucks and cars on the trail (and it's legal). I fail to see where a plated bike would be held to different rules than them. My friend in Hancock had the same argument. He asked why he could drive his Jeep down the trail with no ORV sticker but not his Interceptor (it was a paved section). The cops answer was simply that any bike has to have an ORV sticker to go off-road. The DNR officer disagreed with that.

And no hard feelings on the sticker misunderstanding, I should have included that I had one in the first post. Seems like I always end up buying 2 a year, but due to fender breaking or changes, not glue failure. Looks like I'll be trying to find a pre-printed one next time. :nod:

 

[Smit-Dog]

... Looks like I'll be trying to find a pre-printed one next time. :nod:

Order online, delivered direct to your door. Generally available for the new year by the end of February / first part of March.

http://www.mdnr-elicense.com/welcome.asp

 

[2TrakR]

2trakR - I'm still not seeing how he could ticket me. I could understand if I was on an ORV trail. But I was on a route with a plate where I could legaly drive my grandma's Buick if I wanted.

I'm having a hard time describing this in a different way, so bear with me...
The CO can write a ticket for how he interprets the law. Whether that ticket stands up in court or not is a different story. I think we're in agreement here.
On that ORV Route, I don't know which one you were on but do understand your point. I also agree with what the DNR did in backing your friend with that other ticket. What I am trying to explain is that it's up to the LEO (Conservation Officer in your case, Local Sheriff/Deputy in your friends) to determine in what capacity your vehicle is operating. If they determine at that time/place you were operating as an ORV (their judgement call) they could decide to write a ticket if you didn't have a sticker.
I doubt it would fly in court.
You could take my statement above and extend it to say that a LEO could decide to write you for operating an ORV on a county road when your bike is plated. Small chance that would make it through court - Woodsy had a nice write up a year or two ago on here about just that situation. In his case the CO opted to ignore the license plate on the mean green machine. Woodsy won (hurray!).
Different way of putting it:
Take your neighbors quad out on the county highway by your place and ride around until you get a ticket (don't forget to turn your hat around backwards, this makes you look cool as I witnessed this past weekend). When the LEO writes the ticket, it will be because the ATV is operating as a car but is not licensed for such purposes.

Your bike can be operated in 2 ways: ORV or SOS licensed vehicle.
A 4x4 pickup can also be operated in either manner. The LEO could also write a ticket to the 4x4 driver in the same way he threatened to do to you.
Relatively speaking, your Grandma's Buick can only be operated in one mode - as a car. If that LEO did give you a ticket and you could prove that the Buick could navigate the ORV Route it's a safe bet the Judge would dismiss the ticket.

Now all of this would only apply to designated ORV Routes, not just any forest road. If, where you were stopped, the ORV Route was also sharing a county road there would be an even smaller chance of the ticket "passing" since it's a designated county road open to PA300 traffic.

 

[2TrakR]

Order online, delivered direct to your door. Generally available for the new year by the end of February / first part of March.

http://www.mdnr-elicense.com/welcome.asp

Purchasing through the CCC puts $1 in the CCC's pocket (I think this is still the case, maybe the monetary sum is lower). Same for purchasing through a dealer to get a pre-printed sticker.

 

[Smit-Dog]

So who's selling the cheaper (meaning "lower quality") dot-matrix style stickers?