with all of the blue bikes on the line, do ya think that the blue works bikes might perform better than the red ones? all you need is .5sec lap performance advantage to get a 10 second lead at the end of the race. maybe reeds yammie is a better bike than rc's?
what do you think?
- Thread starter tx246
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Senior KX Rider
Super Power AssClown
- Nov 9, 1999
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Absolutely :laugh:
- Nov 7, 2001
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It'll be interesting to see what the red team comes up with for RC. You know he pi$$ed. Don't want to blame it on the bike but after a few of the spills/washouts he had this year I would say there's something there.
At the factory level I don't think you will find much of a brand personality or (or much resemblance to the stock bikes). All of the top guys' bikes are so adapted to them that it becomes more of a difference in set-up skill than in what they started with IMHO. That being said, of course the Red bikes are better cause mine is red, so it must be so! :silly:
dirt bike dave
Sponsoring Member
- May 3, 2000
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I agree about bike setup making a bigger difference than brand, but rider skill is by far the bigger factor. I think if they all rode the same brand, the riders would finish in the same order.
FWIW, in the Las Vegas 250 final, there were 10 Yamahas, 8 Hondas, 1 Kawasaki (19th place, DNF) and 1 Suzuki (20th place, DNF).
FWIW, in the Las Vegas 250 final, there were 10 Yamahas, 8 Hondas, 1 Kawasaki (19th place, DNF) and 1 Suzuki (20th place, DNF).
In my humble opinion, Big Blue has made the best bikes for the masses since Big Red went to the new chassis in 97. I was a die-hard red rider until then. I kept my 96CR until 99 in hopes that Big Red would realize their mistake or dial in that new Chassis. Now the Chassis is better, but Big Red killed both of their sweet 125 and 250 motors. Honda was also caught sleeping when Big Blue brought out the 400F and 250F. Honda did a fine job on the 450F… the bike that may lure me back under the Big Red Banner, however, Big Red still has nothing to go against the 250F. There is a reason for all of that Blue on the starting line, and it is not because Yamaha offer’s the most contingency. Don’t get me wrong, Honda’s are the most reliable and can be made to run and handle well. Yamaha’s run and handle well right out of the box.
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marcusgunby
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 9, 2000
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Do you think chad couldnt win on a works CR?
nikki
Moto Junkie
- Apr 21, 2000
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Red and I think the Honda frame is at a disadvantage in the SX whoops... especially the CRF 450's. Watch a mid-pack main event SX 450 rider through the whoops (Voss-YZF, Lytle-YZF, Ward-CRF, Thomas-CRF) and you will notice how straight and smooth the YZ's track through compared to the CRF's that swap and backfire and seem to have problems. Same way Preston hurt his knee... in the whoops at Pontiac on the CRF. Fonseca is the only rider that looks "good" going through whoops on a Honda 250-450. Reed kills RC in the whoops and I think 70% of it is the bike not a lack of skill.
- Dec 26, 1999
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It's not about the bike :)
RC won on a Kawasaki and he wins on a Honda two pretty extreme ends of the frame flex spectrum. I seriously doubt that either RC or CR would be any faster or slower on the other brand once they set it up to their liking.
RC won on a Kawasaki and he wins on a Honda two pretty extreme ends of the frame flex spectrum. I seriously doubt that either RC or CR would be any faster or slower on the other brand once they set it up to their liking.
"Factory" bikes are in a league of their own, however Nikki is right, the Honda's do have a tendency to "kick and deflect" in the whoops and on square edge stuff more than the others. Honda has known this since 97 and has dialed more frame flex into the chassis since the original version.
Patman, It is about the bike if you have 2 riders of the same skill. Red in front of Blue at the begining of the whoops... Blue catches Red through the whoops... Blue block passes Red in corner... Red falls... Blue wins.
:0 !
Patman, It is about the bike if you have 2 riders of the same skill. Red in front of Blue at the begining of the whoops... Blue catches Red through the whoops... Blue block passes Red in corner... Red falls... Blue wins.
:0 !
- Dec 26, 1999
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It couldn't be that Skippy is plain better in the whoops than RC could it? How is it that the situation is reversed in the 125 class? Preston hauls in the whoops and he's on an recycled beer can frame. :confused: RC has always looked like a rag doll clipped to a rabid chihuahua in the whoops. Being horse jockey size pays off on the starts for RC but it costs him in the whoops where a taller rider has the advantage.
- Jun 15, 2001
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MrMXer327--eat lunch with Jody Weisel today?
That frankly sounds like the dogma MXA preaches routinely, as if it were motocross scripture.
Anything less than speculation, pure thought, consideration of all factors involved, humility, doubt, self deprecation, more doubt, more thought, etc....is just blowhardy wind.
The closest you could ever get to the truth in this matter would be the opinions of 100 top SX riders, and then you would still have just the opinions of 100 top SX riders. RC was loose in the whoops on his KX, and personally felt better on the CR--his words. Whether he's lieing or not, is another matter. How can you be certain that the aluminum frame is the worst frame in the whoops for everyone--closed book. Why is Yamaha developing, (and probably bringing into production next year) an aluminum framed YZ250?
AJ Waggoner, who not only has ridden all CR's dating back to 97--but also is somewhat involved in their frame modification--had the best explanation of this frame sometime back (IMO). Go find it.
Is Yamaha's metal frame better than Kawasaki's, or Suzuki's? After all, the Yamaha frame is STILL the oldest style frame out there at this time--steel tubing, not fully perimeter style.
Andrew Short won in the 125's, and looked very good in the whoops, so ZOOK's must have the most stable whoop frame of the bunch, whilst JBS's bike clearly ejected him during a timing section--and thus is a terrible timing section frame. That's why he always quads the timing sections, thus making it a poor timing section bike, but a superior 'quad'ing bike. ;)
I'm also sure that setup has nothing to do with it (see AJ's explanation of the various Aluminum frames and their development and response to fine tuning...). For example, I'm sure RC's frame is more to blame in this situation than say, his 4" travel, cut subframe, and horrendous rebound settings that require 10 seconds for the rear tire to move downward after placing the bike on a stand. :silly:
That frankly sounds like the dogma MXA preaches routinely, as if it were motocross scripture.
Anything less than speculation, pure thought, consideration of all factors involved, humility, doubt, self deprecation, more doubt, more thought, etc....is just blowhardy wind.
The closest you could ever get to the truth in this matter would be the opinions of 100 top SX riders, and then you would still have just the opinions of 100 top SX riders. RC was loose in the whoops on his KX, and personally felt better on the CR--his words. Whether he's lieing or not, is another matter. How can you be certain that the aluminum frame is the worst frame in the whoops for everyone--closed book. Why is Yamaha developing, (and probably bringing into production next year) an aluminum framed YZ250?
AJ Waggoner, who not only has ridden all CR's dating back to 97--but also is somewhat involved in their frame modification--had the best explanation of this frame sometime back (IMO). Go find it.
Is Yamaha's metal frame better than Kawasaki's, or Suzuki's? After all, the Yamaha frame is STILL the oldest style frame out there at this time--steel tubing, not fully perimeter style.
Andrew Short won in the 125's, and looked very good in the whoops, so ZOOK's must have the most stable whoop frame of the bunch, whilst JBS's bike clearly ejected him during a timing section--and thus is a terrible timing section frame. That's why he always quads the timing sections, thus making it a poor timing section bike, but a superior 'quad'ing bike. ;)
I'm also sure that setup has nothing to do with it (see AJ's explanation of the various Aluminum frames and their development and response to fine tuning...). For example, I'm sure RC's frame is more to blame in this situation than say, his 4" travel, cut subframe, and horrendous rebound settings that require 10 seconds for the rear tire to move downward after placing the bike on a stand. :silly:
truespode
Moderator / Wheelie King
- Jun 30, 1999
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Yeah, well we all know that only my opinion counts and I think Red is the best :)
Everyone knows that all the discussion here is pure enjoyable speculation. If there was a science to it Rich would be involved :p
I will say I'm surprised that there were no YZ250F's in the top 5 of the E/W shootout. So much for the cheater bike mantra huh?
<snicker>
Ivan
georgieboy
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- Jan 2, 2001
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Patman said:
RC has always looked like a rag doll clipped to a rabid chihuahua in the whoops.
LOL
RC has always looked like a rag doll clipped to a rabid chihuahua in the whoops.
LOL
georgieboy
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- Dec 26, 1999
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I supposed if you cloned RC and put them on both bikes this might be applicable. Of course it would have to be an average of like 10 runs with each taking the inside line 5 times. Then there is the track conditions to consider would the red or blue clone get the first chance at the hot line? The only down side is then the red RC would either throw a hissy fit on the podium or chase down the blue RC and block pass him into the 5th row. Lets not even get in to the mechanics issues a red and a blue Goose? But isn't Goose a Honda expert so wouldn't he have a disadvantage on the blue setup? Now what happenes if the RC's both go down? I'm sure they have to both have the lucky orange gear so what if they switch bikes! :scream:
It looks like the world will never know...... FACTUALLY at least. :)
Senior KX Rider
Super Power AssClown
- Nov 9, 1999
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OHHHHHH MAN :uh:
