James980

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Dec 29, 1999
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After an eight-year layoff, I've been back in this sport for 11 months now and just when I thought I could sink no lower, I run into this D class.

I see no mention of the D class in the AMA rule book. Is it something that has always been around in District 17, or is it a wider outgrowth of the greater populartity MX/SX has achieved?

James
 

Rich Rohrich

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I think the "D" stands for Dingus.  I can only hope my skills improve to the point where someday I'll be eligible to be an Open Vet Dingus class rider.
DARE TO DREAM !!!
 

wardy

2005 Lori Nyland Award Winner
Nov 12, 1999
2,680
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LOL thats funny I asked a few promotors that same question. What the real problem is there are certain districts that don't advance like we do......so there are C riders doing 80 foot triples. Hence some tracks have had to (in there mind) decided it was the best thing and institute another class. So it comes down to this........4 lap motos, get done at 8 pm and wonder why things are the way they are. but i guess there is another winner out there, even tho its in the D class. I bet when that guy gets home he prolly changes like he did his report card and its an A....class?

One thing for sure, as a director I don't run the business, I just try to help them do the right things.


wardy


------------------
"don't wake me.......I am working."
<p align=right> 05-03-2000 :Edited
[ By Moderator ]
 

AJ Waggoner

Crash Test Dummy
Nov 5, 1999
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James,
D17 does NOT have a "D class" but some tracks run it on thier own.

Just so you know they can run anything they want as long as it doesn't conflict with the AMA and insurance companies liabilty policies...
like an
"ingrown toenail" 220cc class if they want to, it is thier business,
BUT NOT a recognized District class.

I have seen promotors run a "over 225 pound class" with a scale to insure the participants were "doughboy class" elgible.

Other parts of the country, do to the number of riders, regularly run what would be condsidred D class though..

they just have different names.
Approximate translations:
D = beginer
C = novice
B = intermediate
A = expert/pro
 

James980

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Dec 29, 1999
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Wardy,

The right thing is to take advancement seriously. I've been observing local MX for quite awhile now, and there's little question in my mind the spectrum from novice to expert, on the amateur level, can't be broken up into three comfortable categories.

The D class is good if it meets additional demand by the masses to compete in MX. But if it's just the promoter's response to cherry-picking, then it's ultimately bad for the sport and something needs fixed.

James<p align=right>05-04-2000 :Edited
 

James980

Member
Dec 29, 1999
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AJ,

So my guess is to participate in these classes, the riders don't need a District 17 card? At what point does the district take notice and decide to assimilate those potential members by instituting a new class?

James

PS: Over 225? Too low. I've seen fatter guys go pretty fast.
 

Rich Rohrich

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AJ -&nbsp;&nbsp;I like the over 225 lb class idea. Count me IN
smile6.gif
In Mountain Bike racing they call those big weight classes the "Clydesdale Class" .&nbsp;&nbsp;Now if they would just do an under 5'6" over 225lb Vet class I might just be able to get a trophy .



------------------
Rich Rohrich

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
 

AJ Waggoner

Crash Test Dummy
Nov 5, 1999
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AHHHHH James!!

A very touchy subject?
To answer your question if the rider resides in D17 and is competing in a D17 event ,no matter the class, he should have a D17 card.

We have 26 recognized MX classes already ( 92 total "awards" classes) and if the promotors/clubs run these we do not need to assimilate those riders..thay are already there competing.

If they are running in a non-recognized class regularly..
then it goes something like this...

If enough Clubs /promotors run a non-district class and it is successful ..that is when we add a new class.
You might have wondered how we come up with the classes? It's the ones that show successful participation at the tracks ..BEFORE we institute them as D17 classes.

At the moment only ONE track is running D class,this is ok but does undermine the system somewhat.
Currently by the ref reports...It really does not draw more riders it simply spreads the C class out.
The gates are not over run now in the C class..not much need to break it down further.
C class in D17 is a beginer or "first year" class.

Riders need to keep in mind WHY they are competing.
To have FUN.
Lets not break the classes down so that every entry gets a trophy.
If you get 15th in C class hopefully you had a great time doing it?
If splitting the classes and then you get 3rd in D class "makes your day" awhole lot better ....
then I'm not sure that rider is in the sport for the "right" reasons?

Just a thought.
 

AJ Waggoner

Crash Test Dummy
Nov 5, 1999
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Hey Rich!
I've heard of that Mountain bike class!

Just so you know the "doughboy class" was a failure...

Those guys were to vain to step on the scale to qualify..

I was surprised as I thought they would all like it and have a good time..it was just one track one race deal...a couple of years ago.
 

JG

Super Power AssClown
Aug 17, 1999
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How about an under 5'8" over 220lb class
smile.gif



------------------
JG
99'RM310&nbsp;&nbsp;
Blackwood, N.J.
 

James980

Member
Dec 29, 1999
282
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The off-beat classes, like the over 225# class, sound like fun, demonstrate ingenuity and shouldn't be discouraged. Even if they're one-time events, they mean more racing for the participants (likely these are guys already in another class -- I don't see anyone showing up just to race one of these things), more business for the promoter and more entertainment for the spectators (read: families).

The D-Class now appears to be a completely different story. I must admit that I've never seen it run in person (although first race at Casey, I'll have my eyes open), but if, as AJ wrote, the C class is a "first year" class, then I don't see the point of a D class.

Cherry picking always has run rampant in this sport, and it never will be eliminated. The districts can't be blamed for the lack of advancement if riders don't cooperate. But, as with most things, fault has to be spread around. Perhaps the D class came about because of two factors: 1) The popularity of MX increasing, attracting more low-experienced riders into the fold; 2) The districts not upping their level of advancement "encouragement" to keep pace with the influx of new riders.

That the D class is run at only one track in D-17, though, testifies to what likely is solid advancement compliance, overall, in D-17. And, from what I've seen in my short experience with this district, Casey is a bit different animal. It must be. I drove down to practice in January and spent some time talking to a guy with a couple CR250s -- he had his "practice" bike in the back of his truck. His class? C. How long? Six years. Must be the truth because no one would make that up.

James
 

AJ Waggoner

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Nov 5, 1999
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James.
Its tough for me to be "politically correct" and answer your questions sometimes. LOL!
I will tell you that you seem to have some VERY keen insight into thw whole mess,and I highly DOUBT that "rider in question" held a D 17 C card.

Other Districts are notorious for lettin guys ride C for quite awhile.
There is NOTHING D 17 can do about it if the rider lives in another District.
Our Advancement policy is very strict.
So strict I was advanced to "A" BEFORE I had the required points average.

Casey is a different animal ...and not because they dont try...they are on the very boirderline of D17 and a vast majority of there riders are from 15 18 and other places.Very hard to manage advancement there.


Bill also has a great point.
For myself I make some contingency money but in all honestly I would LOVE to see the whole "thing" just go away to help the sport.
 

MXSparx

Mr. Meltsomeglass
Jul 25, 1999
3,721
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NoVa
I plan to race in a couple of MX races later this year. I have never raced before. One of the two districts I have a choice of running (name withheld to protect the innocent)I know has a D class.
OK....here is the question of the day.... will they automatically stick me in the D class or can I race C class if I choose??? Or being 36 years old will they make me run in the senior citizen class or what?



------------------

John
No.Virginia
98 KX 250 "ya it's green...but it's a 2 stroke" =P
 

AJ Waggoner

Crash Test Dummy
Nov 5, 1999
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John ,
Basically as a "new" rider to mx competition ..it should be your choice.

If you win or do extreemly well your very first race..guess what? Time to move up already.
but advance at your own pace..most Districts have some form of advancement system in place and will notify you when you need to move "up"

My personal advice to you is the Senoir classes,no matter the A B or C designations , are a bit more "sane".

125 C or D or 250C or D is down right scary to watch much less compete in..lol

James,
I was implying I cannot answer certain questions about specific tracks or promotors without "crossing the PC line" yanno?
I have been friends with Jean Ramsey and Nadine for MANY MANY years,they do a good job and I always have a great time at that track.
 

AJ Waggoner

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Nov 5, 1999
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Pokie!

We have a plus 50 class.

Close as I can get for you at the moment,but who knows plus 60 may happen someday.I think they do hve it at the "vet nmational " type events across the country.

Was that me?? lol I dunno! its possible.
ask Thorman 75 I have reached down to tap him on the helmet before over the back triple..hehe


The KDX is running good..just took it to town the other day..lol
 

Matt210

Member
Feb 28, 2000
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I have been riding since 1997, however I have been at boarding school for two years, and this is my first year at home. Last year, I started racing and I tried 125D class, since I had only ridden in the summer for the past 2 years (6 months total). That class scared the heck out of me, 75% of all the riders were completely out of control, and my first race I got the holeshot and was promptly taken out/run over. I raced D class two more times, worried because I was afraid to get taken out. I had only fair midpack finishes. I moved up to C class because I wanted a bigger challenge. I actually had better finishes in C class, than D and this is in a fairly competitive field of District 7 riders at Budds Creek. I am now regularly finishing around 10th in C class, and 7th in MAMA C class. I have finally started expanding my racing to the Schoolboy class in MAMA, which consists of A, B, and C riders. I am convinced after racing the class that the gap between a D and C class rider is larger than the gap between a C and A class rider. My friend races D class, and when he tries to race C class in MAMA, I always lap him, however when I race MAMA Schoolboy Sr. The fastest A class rider doesnt even have half a lap on me, and only the first and second place riders in Schoolboy Jr. (second gate) usually catch me. I think that once you are a top ten rider in C class, you need to fine tune your skills, such as jumping, cornering, and whoops, instead of overall speed. Does anyone agree?

Matt
 

AMinkman

Member
Nov 17, 1999
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AJ,

I don't know if your are familiar with ABA BMX or not but they have
a simple system. Each state has their own districts and everytime
you race you earn points that accumulate and at the end of the year
your points earn your number for the following year. Moveups are based on wins. Beginner to intermediate is 6 wins and inter to expert is 20 wins.
USCF bicycle racing is 6 top 6s' or 3 top 3s' to move to each classification. With the AMA it seems like it would be easy to track
because it's one governing body. In SoCal it's crazy because every track
is independant from the AMA and each other. It's hard to tell a novice
from an expert in motocross. Pretty easy in most forms of bicycle racing.
Just an observation from a new guy.
 

James980

Member
Dec 29, 1999
282
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Don't know anything about the MX scene in SoCal, but in District 17, other than the D class anomaly we've discussed here, the class skill levels seem relatively consistent. It's easy to tell the C guys at the tracks...just look for the bloody, limping guys with duct-taped gear and body parts.

Seriously, though, regarding what Matt was saying, there definitely is a big jump from the basic beginner to the novice-intermediate that perhaps is a bigger skill gap than that from the novice-intermediate to the mid-pack A guys. That said, while the difference in pure lap times might be greater between the first two groups, I think it takes longer to bridge the relatively smaller chasm from novice-intermediate to expert.

Consider any endeavor. Take journalism, for example. You can learn to be a good journalist in a few years and be orders of magnitude more skilled than the guy who just plugged in his word processor. But without serendipity on your side, to reach Pulitzer level, it can take decades.

With motocross, everyone has different demons. For some (like me), it's cornering and an over-exuberence that leads to frequent crashes -- the same problems I had in my first MX life before an eight-year hiatus. Others can't jump, do the whoops, etc., while their speed through other obstacles might be on par with the lower A guys. The good news is by improving to a relatively high skill level in some areas, we show that we have the stuff to do it. That is, other than a totally different problem that plagues beginners -- fatigue -- most of the hurdles to moving on up are mental.

James
00CR250
 

holeshot

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  I was on the starting line at Carlsbad waiting for my moto to start (about a year ago), when something hit my leg and nearly knocked me over. It was a girl about 5'-2" on a KX80 and she had lost her balance. When she picked her bike up and got back on, she proudly announced to everyone on the start line that she was pregnant. Of course, there was the congratulations and "how is you're husband" kind of stuff.
  Yes, the "pregnant women" class does exist, and I was somehow entered. I wonder if the old guy with the seeing eye dog beat me that day?<p align=right>06-01-2000 :Edited
 

AJ Waggoner

Crash Test Dummy
Nov 5, 1999
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Holeshot..that is downright scary.


AMinkman

The AMA districts work very similar to what you are describinmg in the ABA

In District 17 therer is a point average you reach within a certyain class OR number of race wins and you are moved up a level.
Very Simple ,very effective.

The problem that you see described in places in this thread havce to do with Districts not all having the same advancement syustem ..and some just not following the one they have.
ALSO there is the problem of a rider skipping between Districts to ride other levels.
It is against the rules but hard to catch.
The AMA IS a national organization but rider classification is only kept track of in MX by the individual Districts.
This is not a major problem and most individuals trying to pull that off lose there license for a year or so..but some do slip thru the system for awhile.
 

Reeko

Member
Aug 9, 1999
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Ok, My personal experience...

Last year I was a rank beginner. Never raced, hardly knew how to jump. About all I could do was hold my line and I liked whoops.

Anyway, I wqanted to race and had to choose between 250D and 30+C (no D class in 30
smile11.gif
. I raced 30+C, but the problem with this class is that 99% of these guys were fast. They also jumped all the jumps 50+ft doubles etc.

I think there should be a D class, but they should force the D class riders up to C class when they are capable of clearing the biugger jumps. Maybe they restrict D class to not allow jumping the big doubles. Once you get comfortable to jumping in practice, you will want to move up to C class.

Anyway, it has taken me a year to move from back of the pack C to mid pack. I don't mind loosing, I used to find it intimidating having guys jump over me when they were lapping me.

------------------
Reeko
99KX250 (Me)
00XR100 (Wife)
 

James980

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Dec 29, 1999
282
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Another problem that allows sandbagging, crowded 'C' classes, the devolution of the sport to include the 'D' class, beginning rider confusion, etc., is something that can't be helped no matter how strict the District is at advancement. And that's that many tracks (for time, necessity, etc., ??) don't check the District card. They just swipe your AMA card to cover their butts, take your $20 and send you on your way.

Now, perhaps I'm way off base and there's some behind the scenes cross-checking going on to make sure the 'C' guys aren't on some 'B' and over list, but I doubt it. If anyone can put me in my place, please do.

AJ, aren't the tracks (D-17 or otherwise) supposed to check the District card at sign-up, and aren't all racers required to have District cards, even those in non-District classes?

James
 

AJ Waggoner

Crash Test Dummy
Nov 5, 1999
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James,
Yes the D 17 tracks are required to check District cards.
Sometimes on a busy day they don't do it as well as they should for sure.

A rider residing in D17 MUST have a D 17 card.
The rider classification is printed on the card.
A rider from another District is required to show his "other" District card..IF that District requires one ( some don't)

On the advancement...there is a list of advanced riders every year. The list is actually linked on my page..go to "rider advancement".
It shows the last several years in all classes, but trust me we have records that date back much longer that we reference.
Districts do send the advancement list to the AMA and to neighboring Districts.

Overall I have not seen a "huge problem" this year with this James...just a few incidents and those riders were moved swiftly.

"Some" where actually District mistakes..just sent out the wrong card..not the rider really trying to scam.This happens and shouldnt ..remember we are volunteers..not paid /hired workers  ..lol

There are of course a few riders still out there sort of on the fringe  I'm sure.
If you know of any send the names and it will be looked into and corrected if it applies.
I have caught probablty 5 myself this year and Wardy has caught several more, but overall 10 or so isnt bad out of 2,400 riders in D17 and alot of out of state riders that are harder to keep tabs on?
What percentage is that?? .004% ? LOL if its 3 times that figure in reality from the tracks not checking and a few mistakes its still not too awfully bad..
Not a perfect system by any means but the riders have AMA rules in place to protest anyone at anytime so they CAN self-regulate and help the system.

Hope this clarifies somewhat.

Reeko,
I remeber not long ago here there was NO C class even ..and not even a 30 B class.
It depends on location and number of riders.
In this district even with an average of 28,000 entrees per season..there is no need of a displacement D class or of a +30 C class.
Heck in the plus 30 there are just enough guys now to make a decent gate in A and B ..if you break it up further it just gets goofy.

I can see in some states and District a real need for the bigger class structures..at least from what I hear.
From personal racing experience I have never been anywhere that really NEEDED that..on a state level.Most SoCal races I've been to had 5 or 6 riders per class in the Vet A, B, C, or D classes ..seemed weird to separte them at all almost ??
On a particular "BIG" race level sure.&nbsp;&nbsp;
So then how should they do it just for the "BIG " races?
I dont have a good answer and agree I have seen a problem in that sense.


<p align=right>06-05-2000 :Edited
 

James980

Member
Dec 29, 1999
282
0
AJ:

No need to name anybody, but it might be helpful to send out a friendly "mid-year reminder" to all the promoters, letting them know they should be checking D-17 cards. While this may catch a few sandbaggers, I don't think that's the main reason to check D-17 cards. The main reason is you want everyone taking advantage of the great racing in this District to pony up the $20 or whatever for a District card. It's only fair and it benefits everybody.

James
 
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