MxKid512

Member
Feb 10, 2001
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Hey, I was just wondering how you think Yamaha will react next year to the new 4 stroke. I heard some pretty impressive things that were supposed to happen this year, but they held off.
 

BadgerMan

Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 1, 2001
2,479
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I was hoping that you were going to tell us what Yamaha's answer is!

It's funny that everyone is assuming that the CRF (which very few ,if any, unbiased individuals have seen much less ridden) is going to be a better bike than the YZF. Honda claims 225 pounds? It looks to me like the exhaust weighs 225 pounds :p !

Don't get me wrong, I am a life long Honda fan. However, this whole thing reminds me of the time when Dirt Rider Named a Cannondale as bike-o-the-year two years before anyone saw one. I don't think Yamaha is shaking in their boots just yet.
 

Strick

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Nov 8, 1999
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Two quick comments on the CRF: 55hp?? I can't wait to see if that can be verified.

It will revolutionize light weight four-strokes, if it is 225 -231 less gas.

I can't wait to get mine. Come on November!
 

Humai

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Feb 6, 2000
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For comparison, Yamaha claimed 55hp (at the crank) and 106.5kg (234lb) for their '98 YZ400F when it was released.
 

semi old guy

Member
Dec 9, 1999
53
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55 hp and 225 lbs...hmmm sounds like a 95, 96, 97, 98, 99 and 00 husaberg 501 to me. ok well 240 lbs. actually the honda could weigh 225 considering the 250 weighs 220.
 

Shaw520

Damn Yankees
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May 14, 2000
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If it acually does come through at 225#'s,....I'll be impressed
The 236 pnd 520SX will be tough act to follow, as will the Husi's.
 

JasonJ

Member
Jun 15, 2001
1,150
1
I wish someone would publicly call a spade a spade and confront these manufactures with the BS stats they publish. How can they get away with inflated HP figures and dry weights they KNOW will be disproved as soon as someone throws a bike on a scale or dyno! I love hearing car comercials claim 240 HP from crapy 4 banger or 6 cyl cars. I would love to call Yamaha or Honda and ask em why the forces of gravity seem to be larger across the ocean than in Japan.
As far as Yamaha reacting, no need really, Its taken about 5 years for anyone to react to what they have done. In the motorcycle world, thats and eternity. I am sure if they simply continue to do what they have with the 4 stroke inovation they will continue to dominate the class. I imagine they already have the next evolution waiting in the wings and are maximizing their efforts and profits with the YZF and WRF, kinda like PC chip makers :) , as their are few bikes that are able to hold a candle to them, especially with the price they sell them for and the fact that they are still selling more or less every one they make well before the next model year comes out. They for the moment at least seem to be in more of a position of pro-active rather than reactive.
We all know this industry is a What have you done for me latley market though. And the consumer is always looking for the best buy on the best bike almost regardless of the manufacture. How many guys you know out there will be trading in their 01 YZ 426 for a 02 YZ 426? Probably alot, for no real good reason. How many guys you know out there already have deposites on Honda 450s they have never even seen much less ridden?????
 

MxKid512

Member
Feb 10, 2001
141
0
BadgerMan,
If I knew, I'd tell ya.;)
I'm not saying the CRF will be that much better than the YZ. I'm sure it'll be lighter, by how much I don't know. I like the YZ better because it has been proven. I'd be a little uneasy about putting out 6k for a bike that only 2 people have ever rode. Like Jason J said, I believe that Yamaha has some changes or some big ideas that they have in the R&D, but have had no need to put them on the bike because there hasn't been any competition. Now that there is, what will happen? I've heard everything from new cases and an aluminum frame, to "bold new graphics". Well this year there's bold new graphics. But what about next year? :eek: I think that however good the Honda is will effect what kind of bike we get next year.
 

BadgerMan

Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 1, 2001
2,479
10
“Cat quick and grizzly tough”! Anybody remember the first CR450 and what a splash that new model intro made? I’ll bet Honda hasn’t forgotten!

Will I sell my YZF if Honda announces a CR250F? Nope. Will I buy a Honda next time I go shopping for a new bike? Very likely.
 

ACS

Member
Apr 17, 2001
242
0
I remember the hype when the YZ400 came out and then the WR 400. It was all light weight and great handling. The hype also surrounded the XR400 and then the XR650. (Its amazing how light the bikes are in Japan but the rest of the world gets the fat heavy ones). I wanted one of the Yamaha 400's then couldnt get one so I grabbed one of the last 2 stroke Yamaha WR250's (99). Friends brought the 400's and raved, they then rode the 250 and called it a BMX bike, light, easy to start, blah blah. I'm kinda glad I didnt buy a 400 now as the YZ250F is a much better bike for me. I think the CRF will be a good bike but it will never be as revolutionary as the Yamahas in 1998 or the Husky/ Husabergs were in the early 90's. I will be trying top get a ride on the CRF when it appears and will look at them when / if the 250 arrives to buy one if the price is right and I want one.
 

JuliusPleaser

Too much of a good thing.
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Nov 22, 2000
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Originally posted by JasonJ
I love hearing car comercials claim 240 HP from crapy 4 banger or 6 cyl cars.
Ever heard of a BMW M3? The current M3 6 cylinder puts out 315 HP. DIN.
How about a 968 Porsche? A 3 liter 4 cylinder with 236HP? Also DIN.

Gotta love those crappy 4s and 6s.:p
 

cujet

Member
Aug 13, 2000
826
5
Julius, I think Jason's point was that some figures for HP are inflated. Is the Honda S2000's 4 cylinder 2.0L really capable of 240HP? Not according to the dyno's here in the states. And, not according to the trap speeds the cars produce at the strip. As you may know the drag strip trap speed is used to calculate HP using the cars weight. The Honda is producing about 190HP at the rear wheels. That is fantastic for a 2L engine and nothing else can match it. However there is not a 50HP loss in the drivetrain.

The BMW HP was claimed to be 333 for the 6 cyl. Again just a little high, and has been revised down a little. Yamaha's 4 strokes are not as powerful as originally claimed and I'll guess that Honda is no more powerful than the Yamaha.
 

jly51

Member
Mar 5, 2001
40
0
CR450 at loretta`s

Honda has a production 450 and a 250 at Loretta Lynns this week,the 450 is production #11.I`m not interested in a motocrosser for myself but I wish it had a headlight on it.While i could`nt lift it to check to check the weight ,iwas able to rock it from side to side on the stand-very impresive to say the least.The engine lookes smaller than a yamaha,overall about the same as the cr250,if it goes half as good as it looks it will be an interesting year.:)
 

Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard
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Jul 27, 1999
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Originally posted by cujet
Julius, I think Jason's point was that some figures for HP are inflated. Is the Honda S2000's 4 cylinder 2.0L really capable of 240HP.

YES, if you test with control room air using spec fuel and running no accessories on an eddy current dyno the same way the engine manufacturers do. I love seeing these nitwit journalists who claim to be able to predict HP output via drag strip testing on a sports car. You have a better chance of determining horsepower by rubbing peanut butter on a fish.
SWAG ALERT :)
 

IBWFO

Member
Aug 5, 2001
367
0
I was going to order one of the 450's until watching Rhino @ GH. I was not at all impressed as I watched Ferry pass him on the big mountain. I'm ordering the CR 250 and keeping my 426 until I see how the Honda 450 does at the tracks.
Regards:(
 

JasonJ

Member
Jun 15, 2001
1,150
1
Hey, not that some small motors do not make some very impressive Peak HP, but Ill bet 333 Hp from a prduction normaly aspirated pumped gas moter is poo poop! BS, what ever! As far as rubbing penut butter on a fish goes, thats all yours Rich :) but also I feel using the Max Peak Base HP to judge the performacne of a car is much less accurate than using the 1/4 mile time and trap speed . I perfer the 0 to 100 to 0 numbers myself. Ill roll my mostly stock 240 (claimed by Ford) 86 5.0 mustang against any of these 240 + HP 4 bangers and see what happens when you compare real world V8 tourqe to marketing BS peak base HP. I do know that BMW and Honda know alot about making big HP form small motors, and I do not class any of these or any turbo or supercharged 4 or 6 cyl as crappy, but I have never herd a car comercial touting that this years model car is lighter :) .
Anyway, yeah, my point was inflated HP and weight numbers are a crime and someone should call these guys on it straight up!
 

BadgerMan

Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 1, 2001
2,479
10
Originally posted by Julius Pleaser

Ever heard of a BMW M3? The current M3 6 cylinder puts out 315 HP. DIN.
How about a 968 Porsche? A 3 liter 4 cylinder with 236HP? Also DIN.

Gotta love those crappy 4s and 6s.:p


How about the Oldsmobile Quad-4? Oops…………………..never mind.


968 Porsche, 3 liter 4 cylinder with 236HP? That equals 79HP/liter

YZ250F Yamaha, .25 liter 1 cylinder with 32HP? That equals 128HP/liter

XR100R Honda, .1 liter 1 cylinder with 10HP? That equals 100HP/liter

XR50R Honda, .05 liter 1 cylinder with 4 HP? That equals 80HP/liter

Pretty sad numbers for a Porsche if you ask me.

Did I do the math right?
 

JasonJ

Member
Jun 15, 2001
1,150
1
Yeah man, math looks about right,
R1 like 130 HP =, uh well 130 HP / liter :).
So if the R1 is lets say 375 lbs that gives a HP to weight ratio of 1 to 2.7 or so , ha, if it had wings and a prop it could fly quite nicely :) .

Yamaha YZ 426,,,,,, $ 6200
Helmet, boots, and other protective equipment, $ 750
turning the throttle and knowing you will have to clean your shorts when you get back,,,,,,,,,, priceless :).
Some things are priceless, for everything else,,,,,, there is Yamaha credit :) .
Dirt bikes, taking you every where you want to be.
 
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DougRoost

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May 3, 2001
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Jason, that is hilarious! BTW, drivetrain losses are typically 18-22% in a car. This, plus the perfect lab conditions Rich noted, mean Honda's S2000 is capable of 240HP peak. I still don't know why the dirt bike companies won't come clean on weight, though. Perhaps they only use metric scales and have a faulty conversion factor?!!
 

wayneo426

Sponsoring Member
Dec 30, 2000
810
1
Sandbar, NY
DougRoost-The reason why they never come clean regarding weight is that there are millions of morons out there that base their final buying decisions on a bike that a manufacturer claims weighs 5 lbs. less than the competition. :silly:
 

DougRoost

~SPONSOR~
May 3, 2001
720
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Wayneo, I know you're right and that just makes it all the worse. Certain manufacturers lie about it, people plunk down their hard-earned cash based on flat out incorrect info, and the manufacturers continue to get away with it.

Apparently there's no real penalty when they're caught being off on the weights. I could see wet weights since there could be some slight differences but there is no excuse for the dry weights they publish. Don't we have truth in advertising laws? I don't know but it would seem to me the other bike companies could sue for false advertising, actual damages plus punitive damages. So could someone who bought a bike based on incorrect specs. After all, these are manufacturer's specifications and are supposed to represent the product.
 

Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard
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Jul 27, 1999
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Originally posted by DougRoost
After all, these are manufacturer's specifications and are supposed to represent the product.

You guys are assuming that they don't represent the product and that probably isn't the case. Much like the horsepower specs, unless we have a totally clear understanding of what "dry weight" DOES represent then it's tough to accuse them of any wrong doing. Yamaha and Honda may define it differently, but I'll bet more often than not those guys can prove what they publish on their spec sheets.
 
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