Congrats Barry Bonds

[VintageDirt]

The solution to the problem is simple, half of us should water our lawns on even days and the other half water on odd days.

 

[GETMETOCA]

Sorry, but every generation of baseball has had controversial players.

:cool:

 

[Patman]

Sorry, but every generation of baseball has had controversial players.

This of course makes it totally acceptable? How would it be viewed if Bubba juiced? What about Lance? I'm trying to figure out what the parameters are that makes this acceptable. :think:

 

[Tennessee Thumper]

:nod:
My Brother has a Babe Ruth autographed baseball, black and red stitching.. Best part was my grandparents found it at a antique shop, for $1 :whoa:

Is it for sale???

 

[Rich Rohrich]

I haven't independently researched this myself. I'm just going by the testimony of the doctors and scientists from the World Anti-Doping Agency who testified at the congressional hearing on steroids in baseball(I watched the entire hearing).

Peer reviewed research would tend to disagree with that testimony, but there is nothing new about that. Agendas have a way of driving things in a specific direction. ;)

 

[CJG]

Peer reviewed research would tend to disagree with that testimony, but there is nothing new about that. Agendas have a way of driving things in a specific direction. ;)

If steroids aren't helpful in baseball, then why is steroid use in the game so prevalent? Yes I understand that there is no emperical evidence that steroids improve hand-eye coordination. But there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence. In order to PROVE that the latest and greatest designer steroids improve hand-eye coordination a complete case study would have to be done. Including having large sample groups take these new steroids and also be subjected to the potential side effects. Thankfully, the medical community would never undertake such an endeavor, knowing the health risks of steroid use.

Here are a couple of articles I found interesting.

From Dave Solomon- New Haven Register:
[I think we’re looking at steroids the wrong way if we think steroid use is exclusively for the slugger. I don’t have any documentation to prove that steroids not only make you stronger, it artificially enhances the motor skills that allow you to hit and pitch a baseball. The argument used often for Bonds is that "you still have to be able to hit a baseball," said by Ted Williams to be the toughest thing in all of sport. I believe steroids have enhanced that ability.

Consider that at the age of 38 in 2002, Bonds had the highest average of his major league career at .370. At 40, he had his second-highest average (.362). At 39, he had his third-highest average (.341). At 37, he had his fifth-highest average (.328). In his first 15 seasons, Bonds had only one season in which he batted higher than .311.
Is that any proof that designer steroids, the best that money can buy, improve a man’s hand-eye coordination as well as his raw power? No, yet I absolutely believe it to be so.]

From www.sanfran.com:

[The Straight Dope
Hey, listen?Barry Bonds has some questions of his own about steroids.
By Kevin Berger

"I want to know what steroids do for an athlete," the Giants left fielder told the Chronicle. "Does it give you hand-eye coordination? Does it give you pitch selection? Does it do any of those things?"

Of course, Bonds was being rhetorical. Like anyone who's spent time around weight lifters, he's seen what steroids do?plus, his best friend and personal trainer, Greg Anderson, under indictment for dishing the drugs out, must have told him a thing or two about their effects. But Bonds' questions do hit the sweet spot of the controversy: Could steroids really convert an already-great hitter like Bonds into the mind-blowing slugger he's become? Here's what science says. You make the call.

What do steroids do for an athlete? Anabolic steroids are "similar in action and chemical structure to the male hormone testosterone, and promote muscle growth and strength," says Peter J. Ambrose, professor of clinical pharmacy at UCSF, a drug consultant for the NCAA, and a doping control officer at the Olympics.

Could big muscles produce a better slugger? By themselves, no, says Alan Nathan, professor of physics at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. It's not brawn but the speed of the swing that drives a ball over the fence. "If two batters, one who's slightly built and one who's brawny, swung the bat at the same speed, the ball coming off the bat would be exactly the same," he says.

Can steroids make you swing faster? "It's never been proven," says Dr. Marc Safran, director of sports medicine at UCSF. "But you'd think that would be the case," as steroids allow athletes to fine-tune their anaerobic, or "fast-twitch," muscles, as fallen Olympic idol Ben Johnson did when he burned up the 100 meters in 1988. Just as significant, Safran says, steroids allow athletes "to train harder, train longer, and recover faster" from wear and tear on their muscles. Which would help Bonds, a hard worker in the weight room, strive to perform at peak levels for a long season.

Do steroids help pitch selection? That's an act of cognition, based on experience. "But there are clearly neurological effects" to steroids, says Safran. Adds Ambrose, "Athletes have told me they take these drugs to make them more aggressive, make them hit harder." Thinking more sharply could be a placebo effect, but that too might help. Athletes "think steroids work. Why else would they take them?" he says.

Do steroids sharpen hand-eye coordination? Science has only anecdotal evidence, and the best anecdote, says Safran, comes from a recent article in Outside magazine, in which cyclist Stuart Stevens pumped himself up with steroids and reported the effects. Stevens was told by his steroid supplier that human growth hormone?also linked to Anderson?could improve the muscles in his eyes. Sure enough, Stevens writes, "I started to realize that my eyesight really was improving."

The verdict? Unquestionably, the scientists conclude, a baseball player could pull off Bonds-like feats just by virtue of natural skills and rigorous physical training. At the same time, considering the anecdotal evidence?and many scientists do?steroids could enhance even the most talented hitter's bat speed, concentration, and results.

Thanks for asking, Barry.]

I can only hope that when I turn 38 I'll magically become bigger, stronger, and better at my chosen sport- Just like Barry Bonds. In five years RC, Bubba, or whoever is top MX dog at the time better watch out. I guess I'll just have to deal with my head swelling to three times it's normal size. :cool:

 

[WoodsRider]

This of course makes it totally acceptable? How would it be viewed if Bubba juiced? What about Lance? I'm trying to figure out what the parameters are that makes this acceptable. :think:

Never said anything about it being acceptable. The behavior of several professional athletes is definitely not acceptable, but they get away with it because they're good at putting a b-ball through a hoop, hitting a baseball with a stick or running for a touchdown.

 

[rickyd]

Is it for sale???

Nah, my brother is/was a big collector, he has yet too sell anything.. I will see if i can take a pic of the ball..
One guy that is big in baseball memoralabilia (from Chicago i dont know his name) told my brother too name a price on it.. Pretty cool holding a baseball the The Babe held at one point :cool: Also has a game used Bonds jersey that has been autographed too :cool:

 

[Jaybird]

Also has a game used Bonds jersey that has been autographed too

Does it smell like ointment?
:rotfl:

 

[rickyd]

Good one :) Its in a glass case, like the ones in sports bars etc.. At one point my brother knew the Giants equipment manager, when my brothe took it too have it autographed, Barry was kinda shocked too see one of his jerseys..

 

[Okiewan]

< Okiewan Bails >

 

[rickyd]

< Okiewan Bails >

Hopefully Barry will hit one tonight for ya HAHA!!


Reinstated??

 

[99raptor]

He should be banned and his stats all disallowed,he's a cheater plain and simple.

 

[Okiewan]

< Okiewan Bails >

 

[Rich Rohrich]

If steroids aren't helpful in baseball, then why is steroid use in the game so prevalent? Yes I understand that there is no emperical evidence that steroids improve hand-eye coordination. But there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence.

I never said or even implied that steroids wouldn't help a hitter. I'm convinced they can be used to great advantage. If you are good enough to play in the majors and can't get an advantage from steroids, you are DOING IT WRONG. ;)

I merely took issue with your statement :

Certain steroids are known to increase hand eye coordination and improve reaction times.

There is NOT as you put it, "a wealth of anecdotal evidence" to support this claim. I've seen nothing more than a handful of poorly researched claims by popular press journalists/publications, with nothing of substance to back it up. Which is pretty typical, all things considered. They write for a general audience who as a rule won't know any better. It doesn't take much skill to slide specious arguements past an uninformed audience. <cite></cite>

There is a wealth of very well researched information on the subject of anabolic steroids and their effects on athletes, but nothing I've seen has ever pointed to anything that would make me believe they have any real influence (good or bad) on hand/eye coordination or reaction times. Especially in something as specific as hitting a baseball.

Unlike these "journalists" making unsubstantiated claims, I actually have 25 years worth of serious research and athlete interaction under my belt on this subject. While that doesn't make me any sort of an expert, it sure has provided me with a finely tuned bull**** filter.

As to the "ethical" parts of the discussion, I figure people are going to decide that on their own regardless of the technical points we debate. ;)

 

[CJG]

You're right Rich, I should have used the word "believed" instead of the word "known"( I edited it :cool: ). I was simply going by what the doctors from the World Anti-Doping Agency had said. As you mentioned earlier, they probably do have their own agenda. Which I personally think is a noble one. But I also assumed they probably knew more about steroids and there benefits, and dangers, than pretty much anyone, considering it's their life's work.

The first article I quoted was editorial opinion which I only used to show Barry's stats. They don't prove anything, but they do clearly show that he has done something that virtually no athlete in this sport(or any other) has ever done- His game significantly improved at a point in his career when most athletes games have significantly degraded. The second article is also editorial. But it was included because it quotes scientists(not journalists) who "should" know a fair amount about the subject. As for whether or not there is a "wealth of anecdotal evidence", it just depends on how you define "wealth"(speaking Clintonese). :laugh:

 

[HajiWasAPunk]

Rich, what kind of research do you do?

Even if there is a "wealth of anecdotal evidence", imo, this is by far the weakest form of support (even worse than case studies). But as I stated in a previous post in this thread, it would be nearly impossible to do a more scientific study.

On a simpler note, Bonds is an a-hole and in the court of public opinion he'll be crucified where as McGwire and other may get somewhat of a pass. Not that they're any less guilty of cheating. I don't buy that he didn't know what they were giving him.

 

[rickyd]

Is it for sale???

Nope, He has yet to sell anything of his collection :cool:

Somehow I wasn't receiving notification of this thread :cool:

2 more to go Barry!! :cool: :cool: :)

 

[Jaybird]

* + * = *

 

[rickyd]

Hr + Hr = 756 + More To Come :)

 

[rickyd]

Congrats Barry, 755 :)

Also Congrats to A Rod, career # 500, the youngest to do it and have over 250 stolen bases. WHich puts you in an elite club w/ Bonds and the Say Hey Kid, WIlly :)

 

[Ol'89r]

Barry Bonds 755* :fft:

I was waiting to see what was going to happen first. Was he going to get 755* or was his head going to explode. :whoa:

I was actually hoping for the later. :nod:


* This puts Bonds in an elite club, but not the same club as Willy or the Babe. They did it with drive and talent, not drugs. IMO.

 

[oldguy]

Barry Bonds 755* :fft:



* This puts Bonds in an elite club, but not the same club as Willy or the Babe. They did it with drive and talent, not drugs. IMO.

Ol89r hit this one out of the park without steroids :cool:

 

[mmz77]

Good Job Barry, Hope to see you hit number 756 at home. Good Luck to Arod also for number 500 at the young age of 32 years. I wouldn't be surprised to see him open up the record... :cool:

 

[rickyd]

Ol89r hit this one out of the park without steroids :cool:

Viagra's a roid? :nener: :laugh: